Hypothetically Horus gets the Lost Legions before Heresy

[Moonreaper666]

Horus was very upset when Malcador unpersonned the Two Lost Primarchs. I wondered how the Heresy would have changed had Horus gotten the Two Lost Legions (Marines, Geneseed, Ships, etc.) assimilated into the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus instead of the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

 

How many Imperial Fist and Ultramarine Astartes as well as HH-characters were from the Lost Legions and are now transferred to the Sons of Horus? What woupd be the size of the SoH, IF and UM Legions at the start of this Hypothetical Heresy?

[Irate Khornate]

Wrong section my dude, that one is best taken to the HH area.

[Pacific81]

Well it probably would have helped if he'd had greater volume of numbers, but AFAIK isn't it all based on hearsay anyway? (i.e. that info about some of the marines going to other legions was based on a character repeating a rumour, I forget the source)
 
We don't know anything about them and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your views) I don't think that is ever going to change, short of the odd deliberately scurrilous and vague tit-bit added by a BL author.

[Moonreaper666]

Well it probably would have helped if he'd had greater volume of numbers, but AFAIK isn't it all based on hearsay anyway? (i.e. that info about some of the marines going to other legions was based on a character repeating a rumour, I forget the source)

 

We don't know anything about them and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your views) I don't think that is ever going to change, short of the odd deliberately scurrilous and vague tit-bit added by a BL author.

Chamber at the End of Memory short story about Dorn and Malcador. Turns out that Dorn ordered almost everyone's memories to be wiped (himself included but not Malcador) and absorb the Lost Legions into the IF and Smurfs

 

 

Lore numbers at the start of Heresy:

 

Ultramarines - 250k

 

Sons of Horus -130k to 170k, (Post-Isstvan III 70k to 110k)

 

Imperial Fists -A little bit over 100k

 

 

Let's say 1/5th were Lost Legionnaires and given over to Sons of Horus:

 

Ultramarines - 200k Marines

 

Imperial Fists - A little bit over 80k

 

Sons of Horus - 200k to 240k (140k to 180k Post-Isstvan III)

 

 

Remember, the Lost Legions' geneseed and vehicles/ships would also be transferred as well.

 

The Ultramarines would lose more Marines and other Loyalist forces at Calth, Shadow Wars, Ruinstorm and just getting to Terra. Horus would have more time in the Siege of Terra

 

Polux would have lost at Phall (assuming he isn't one of the Lost Legionnaires) since his fleet would be 20% smaller. The Fists are less effective during the Battle of Pluto/Solar War/Siege of Terra

 

The Sons of Horus are much more effective throughout the Heresy. The Shattered Legions lose more Marines at DSM and other engagements. The Traitors lose less forces at Trisolian. Horus would have won Beta-Garmon days earlier and taken Terra

[Indefragable]

....isn't the speculation that the marines from the two "lost legions" were absorbed into the Ultramarines and/or Word Bearers?

 

Emphasis on speculation. 

 

While two whole other Legions worth of men and materiel would logically make a big difference, on either side, I don't know if it would have been an auto-win type of scale tipping. It could go both ways. Yes, having that much more force could make Horus's drive to Terra that much easier and quicker. On the other hand, it could have given Dorn pause in sending Ferrus, Vulkan, Corax and their boys to Istvaan so quickly, and instead have them link up with the VII Legion Retribution Fleet to in greater force...maybe even establishing contact with Guilliman and the XIII, attempting to bring back Sanguinius and the IX, Khan and the V, The Lion and the I Legion as well to establish a unified front/overrwhelming force first. 

 

One of those massive "what ifs" that's harder to pin down than it may seem.

[Moonreaper666]

....isn't the speculation that the marines from the two "lost legions" were absorbed into the Ultramarines and/or Word Bearers?

 

Emphasis on speculation.

 

While two whole other Legions worth of men and materiel would logically make a big difference, on either side, I don't know if it would have been an auto-win type of scale tipping. It could go both ways. Yes, having that much more force could make Horus's drive to Terra that much easier and quicker. On the other hand, it could have given Dorn pause in sending Ferrus, Vulkan, Corax and their boys to Istvaan so quickly, and instead have them link up with the VII Legion Retribution Fleet to in greater force...maybe even establishing contact with Guilliman and the XIII, attempting to bring back Sanguinius and the IX, Khan and the V, The Lion and the I Legion as well to establish a unified front/overrwhelming force first.

 

One of those massive "what ifs" that's harder to pin down than it may seem.

It is CANON that the Lost Legions were absorbed into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines at the behest of Dorn before the Heresy. Dorn wanted Malcador to memory wipe almost everyone's memories about the Lost Primarchs and their Legions (Chamber at the End of Memory)

 

My hyphotetical scenario has Horus getting those Two Legions instead of Dorn and Guilliman

[Morovir]

Have you actually read the book, or are you just using second-hand information like you usually do?

 

Also, could we just have one merged thread for all of Moonreaper's 'theories' and 'speculations'? Preferably with his name in the title.

[Brother Tyler]

Have you actually read the book, or are you just using second-hand information like you usually do?

Your question above translates into: "Please quote the source."

 

Also, could we just have one merged thread for all of Moonreaper's 'theories' and 'speculations'? Preferably with his name in the title.

The recent hypothetical questions are sufficiently different, and sufficiently developed by Moonreaper666, that they are suitable as individual topics. Moonreaper666 understands what will happen to his topics if they revert to the level of those he posted a year ago.

 

Members that don't want to participate in the discussions can easily exercise their freedom by not clicking on/reading the discussions (a topic's author is shown on the access page, so it's not difficult to make a quick assessment as to whether or not you think you want to enter a discussion). As the recent hypothetical discussions have demonstrated, however, there are members that are interested in participating in these types of discussions, so it would be unfair to them to just lump them all together in a manner that violates our basic information architecture/content management principles (and I'm currently working on an article to explain those principles - a draft copy is open on one of my other screens as I type this post).

[Leif Bearclaw]

There are 2 things wrong with this latest dive into mental hypotheticals.

 

First, if you're pinning all this on 'the lost Legions were absorbed by the VII and XIII' based on The Chamber at the End of Memory, the story doesn't make that claim or support that assertion (according to the plot summaries available online). Not only is all of this based on Malcador's (hardly the the most truthful and 'straight shooting' character in the setting) word, but as the story itself involves memory wipes, there's no way of knowing that Malcador's information is actually true, even if he thinks it is. The story also only states that the remaining Marines were "mind-wiped and reassigned to new, unspecified, roles", not sent to Dorn and Gulliman's Legions. Hell, for all we know the Luna Wolves did take on the surviving Lost (assuming that's the truth, of course).

 

Secondly, the SoH absorbing the Lost wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. Why? Because it doesn't seem to have made any real difference to the Legions you claim actually got them. Neither the Ultras nor the IFs have the sort of extra strength that you assume would come from absorbing another entire Legion. The IFs were pretty small overall, as were the Ultras given the size of their recruitment pool (single worlds were capable of sustaining 100,000 strong Legions, so the Ultras being 250k when drawing from 500 is hardly extravagant, if anything you'd expect them to be even larger). So any additional infusions of men and materiel appear to have evened out by the time of the Heresy, and there's no reason to think the SoH would be any different.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Moonreaper666]

There are 2 things wrong with this latest dive into mental hypotheticals.

 

First, if you're pinning all this on 'the lost Legions were absorbed by the VII and XIII' based on The Chamber at the End of Memory, the story doesn't make that claim or support that assertion (according to the plot summaries available online). Not only is all of this based on Malcador's (hardly the the most truthful and 'straight shooting' character in the setting) word, but as the story itself involves memory wipes, there's no way of knowing that Malcador's information is actually true, even if he thinks it is. The story also only states that the remaining Marines were "mind-wiped and reassigned to new, unspecified, roles", not sent to Dorn and Gulliman's Legions. Hell, for all we know the Luna Wolves did take on the surviving Lost (assuming that's the truth, of course).

 

Secondly, the SoH absorbing the Lost wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. Why? Because it doesn't seem to have made any real difference to the Legions you claim actually got them. Neither the Ultras nor the IFs have the sort of extra strength that you assume would come from absorbing another entire Legion. The IFs were pretty small overall, as were the Ultras given the size of their recruitment pool (single worlds were capable of sustaining 100,000 strong Legions, so the Ultras being 250k when drawing from 500 is hardly extravagant, if anything you'd expect them to be even larger). So any additional infusions of men and materiel appear to have evened out by the time of the Heresy, and there's no reason to think the SoH would be any different.

Soul Drinkers proves the first point

 

EDIT: The Legions had different sizes in the Heresy with some having tens of thousands more than other. Raven Guard vs Sons of Horus a prime example

 

Many Legions recruited from multiple sources. The Ultramarines weren't as aggressive or accepting as casualties.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Moonreaper666

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Soul Drinkers proves the first point

 

What? How? When? Explain. IIRC there is no concrete mention of the Lost in the Soul Drinker books, and lexicanum only offers "There had been twenty Primarchs created by the Emperor as templates for the superhumans that would conquer the Galaxy in His name...Fully half would be revealed as traitors in the fires of the Horus Heresy." That does not say 'the Ultramrines and IFs absorbed the Lost Legions'.

 

 

The Legions had different sizes in the Heresy with some having tens of thousands more than other. Raven Guard vs Sons of Horus a prime example

 

Are you trying to miss the point here? If the Lost were absorbed by the XIII and VII then it didn't affect their overall strengths, because neither Legion is unusually large given the context of their recruitment methods. So there's no reason to assume that if the Lost had gone to the Luna Wolves, decades before Horus went bad, it would have made any appreciable difference to the strength of any of the 3 Legions mentioned here at the start of the HH.

 

 

Many Legions recruited from multiple sources. The Ultramarines weren't as aggressive or accepting as casualties.

Again, why do you assume I don't this? Many Legions also had strong biases towards Primarch homeworld recruitment. Take one of the most extreme examples, the Death Guard. Betrayal states that Morty only recruited outside Barbarus when absolutely necessary to sustain Legion viability, which was sometimes required because the DG had one of the worst proportional attrition rates in the Great Crusade. Yet the DG were able to sustain 'Legion strength' (albeit on the small side), so it seems reasonable to conclude that if DG attrition rates hadn't been so massively high, Barbarus alone could have supported the entire Legion. The point is the Ultras don't need to absorb the lost to hit 250k, because they are recruiting from a pool orders of magnitude larger than most of the their peers.

[Pacific81]

 

Well it probably would have helped if he'd had greater volume of numbers, but AFAIK isn't it all based on hearsay anyway? (i.e. that info about some of the marines going to other legions was based on a character repeating a rumour, I forget the source)

 

We don't know anything about them and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your views) I don't think that is ever going to change, short of the odd deliberately scurrilous and vague tit-bit added by a BL author.

Chamber at the End of Memory short story about Dorn and Malcador. Turns out that Dorn ordered almost everyone's memories to be wiped (himself included but not Malcador) and absorb the Lost Legions into the IF and Smurfs

 

 

 

Ah - that's interesting. 

 

I will have to take a look at that short story - thanks! 

 

Is there any hint at what could have happened to them that was so terrible that it needed everyone's memories to be wiped?

 

I'm thinking perhaps Chaos related? Although then you would have thought the big E would have taken more steps to protect the other Legions etc if it had happened once. I know the very early fluff was written to replicate what happened when Roman Legions were lost (completely annihilated by an enemy) and all records of them were removed from the archives in Rome, so I assume that would still be a possibility. 

 

PS - I do enjoy discussions about the lost legions. Not that they will ever get anywhere because no BL writer would surely be permitted, but it is fun!

[bluntblade]

....isn't the speculation that the marines from the two "lost legions" were absorbed into the Ultramarines and/or Word Bearers?

Even that, at best, is conjecture by the characters. The Ulramarines' growth was likely happening exponentially anyway, and possibly they took over the Legions' homeworlds.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

Well it probably would have helped if he'd had greater volume of numbers, but AFAIK isn't it all based on hearsay anyway? (i.e. that info about some of the marines going to other legions was based on a character repeating a rumour, I forget the source)

 

We don't know anything about them and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your views) I don't think that is ever going to change, short of the odd deliberately scurrilous and vague tit-bit added by a BL author.

Chamber at the End of Memory short story about Dorn and Malcador. Turns out that Dorn ordered almost everyone's memories to be wiped (himself included but not Malcador) and absorb the Lost Legions into the IF and Smurfs

 

 

Ah - that's interesting.

 

I will have to take a look at that short story - thanks!

 

Is there any hint at what could have happened to them that was so terrible that it needed everyone's memories to be wiped?

 

I'm thinking perhaps Chaos related? Although then you would have thought the big E would have taken more steps to protect the other Legions etc if it had happened once. I know the very early fluff was written to replicate what happened when Roman Legions were lost (completely annihilated by an enemy) and all records of them were removed from the archives in Rome, so I assume that would still be a possibility.

 

PS - I do enjoy discussions about the lost legions. Not that they will ever get anywhere because no BL writer would surely be permitted, but it is fun!

Worse than the Heresy, in Dorn's view which is a lot coming from him. Even Chaos Horus and all the other Traitor Primarchs don't want to talk about it

 

Only two things strike deep fear into Dorn: Siege of Terra and the memories of the Lost Primarchs and what they did

 

The Soul Drinkers don't have Dorn's geneseed. Who knows how many Marines/Chapters of the IF and UM are from the Lost Legion

 

I bet on Sigismund and Aeonid Theil as former Lost Astartes

 

To make things worse, Cawl is making Primaris using the Lost geneseed. It is only a matter if time for the truth about the Lost to come out. Tzeentch would love it for the Imperium to be destroyed by its own lie!

[Leif Bearclaw]

Claiming that the Soul Drinkers prove your conjecture just doesn't add up.

 

According to your interpretation of Chamber at the End of Memory, the IFs absorb a Lost Legion. But at the same time everyone in the Legion, up to and including Dorn himself have their minds wiped of any knowledge of this. Even if the Lost did form separate formations within the Legion, they would be getting 'true' IFs to replace their casualties. Yet somehow a group of these Lost survive, with a distinct gene-seed from the rest of the Legion for decades of the Great Crusade, plus the Heresy and Scouring until branching off into their own Chapter? Despite nobody, not even the Marines themselves, knowing they were of the Lost Legions?That would be ridiculous. Far more likely that either the Soul Drinkers were a Blackshield or Loyalist command folded into the IFs during the Scouring, or that the Sanguinary Priest in Phalanx was just wrong (maybe because of gene-seed degradation thanks to Daenyathos' shenanigans). The latter seems particularly likely as War of the Beast has the Drinkers help with reconstitution of the Fists, so one would expect them being of a different gene-line to be noticed then.

 

Furthermore, if you're right (and you're still not) then making sweeping statements about how using Lost gene-seed will doom the Imperium is just nonsense. Because the Ultras and IFs were fine. They weren't stricken by madness or mutation. Even the Soul Drinkers took 10,000 years to go renegade, and that was more due to shenanigans starting in m36 (so 5000 years after the Heresy) than gene-seed issue. So the Marines were clearly 'safe to use' biologically (again, this is assuming your premise is right) so there would be no issue with 'Lost' Primaris, as the thought crime which damned their Primarchs isn't going to be repeated.

[Moonreaper666]

Claiming that the Soul Drinkers prove your conjecture just doesn't add up.

 

According to your interpretation of Chamber at the End of Memory, the IFs absorb a Lost Legion. But at the same time everyone in the Legion, up to and including Dorn himself have their minds wiped of any knowledge of this. Even if the Lost did form separate formations within the Legion, they would be getting 'true' IFs to replace their casualties. Yet somehow a group of these Lost survive, with a distinct gene-seed from the rest of the Legion for decades of the Great Crusade, plus the Heresy and Scouring until branching off into their own Chapter? Despite nobody, not even the Marines themselves, knowing they were of the Lost Legions?That would be ridiculous. Far more likely that either the Soul Drinkers were a Blackshield or Loyalist command folded into the IFs during the Scouring, or that the Sanguinary Priest in Phalanx was just wrong (maybe because of gene-seed degradation thanks to Daenyathos' shenanigans). The latter seems particularly likely as War of the Beast has the Drinkers help with reconstitution of the Fists, so one would expect them being of a different gene-line to be noticed then.

 

Furthermore, if you're right (and you're still not) then making sweeping statements about how using Lost gene-seed will doom the Imperium is just nonsense. Because the Ultras and IFs were fine. They weren't stricken by madness or mutation. Even the Soul Drinkers took 10,000 years to go renegade, and that was more due to shenanigans starting in m36 (so 5000 years after the Heresy) than gene-seed issue. So the Marines were clearly 'safe to use' biologically (again, this is assuming your premise is right) so there would be no issue with 'Lost' Primaris, as the thought crime which damned their Primarchs isn't going to be repeated.

The Lost Legions' geneseed would still be used by the IF and UM to make new Astartes

 

Dorn's memories may have been wiped, but he still knows a few details like the fact it's his idea for memory wipes and not purging the Lost Legions but incorporating them

 

In fact, he approach Malcador to restore his memories to figure out why he would do such things. He goes into a panic attack and confirms that he wanted these things to be done. He gets another memory wipe

 

All of the Lost Legion Marines had their memories wiped. Heck, pretty much everyone beside the Emperor and Malcador had their memories of the Missing Primarchs wiped!

[bluntblade]

We don't even have canon implications that gene-seed was retained. It would be a totally valid interpretation to assume that only those Legions' recruiting worlds were used and that the gene-seed was simply sequestered. 

 

Not to mention that not once in the Heresy has any Imperial Fist or Ultramarine looked askance at at a brother with whom the bonds don't apply in the usual way.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The Lost Legions' geneseed would still be used by the IF and UM to make new Astartes

 

And you base this latest claim on? We know that the majority of Legion gene-seed came from gene labs and their Primarchs, not Progeniod recovery. This is shown by the Emperor's Children, who after losing their stockpiled seed aren't able to maintain their strength on Progeniod recovery alone. The story you've based this rampant speculation on makes no mention of using the Lost's gene-seed. Again, think about it, either masses of gene-wrights would have to be 'in' on the conspiracy (despite being everyone being mindwiped) to cover up the use of multiple gene-lines for the VII and XIII, or they're so bad at their jobs nobody notices that 2 different lines are in use. Also, why would the Imperium take the risk? Sure, theoretically using the extant Marines makes sense (although there's still no evidence for what these 'new, unspecified roles' were, even if Malcador is telling the truth) but incorporating the II and XI gene-lines into another Legion's is another issue entirely. It's completely unnecessary, as we know single gene-lines are capable of supporting Legion-strength forces of Astartes. Because that's how all the Legions worked.

 

Dorn's memories may have been wiped, but he still knows a few details like the fact it's his idea for memory wipes and not purging the Lost Legions but incorporating them

Not according to the plot summary on lexicanum.

 

n the short story The Chamber at the End of Memory, a work crew involved in the fortification of the Imperial Palace is killed after breaking into a tower and triggering a series of psychic traps. Upon investigating, Rogal Dorn discovers a pair of doors marked with the numerals Two and Eleven, and assumes that they are those Primarchs' personal quarters, even though those rooms are meant to be on the other side of the Palace. He is soon confronted by Malcador the Sigillite, who reveals that Dorn and Roboute Guilliman have previously told him to suppress the surviving Primarchs' memories of their two lost brothers, including their names and titles, as knowledge of their loss would have threatened the core ideals of the Great Crusade. He also reveals that the Space Marines of the two lost Legions did not share their Primarchs' fates, but were instead mind-wiped and reassigned to new, unspecified, roles. He then temporarily lifts the memory block on Dorn, in order to show him why the two Primarchs and their fates must remain a mystery.

 

Later, when reflecting on the revealed memories, Dorn thinks to himself that

 

"What came to pass could overshadow everything ... The raw, hateful truth is clear to me. If they were here with us now... This war would already have been lost."[42]

 

He then gives the order for the tower to be buried, and says that it is "only a tomb now".

 

That summary clearly claims that Dorn did not know either that it was his idea for memory wipes, or that Lost Legionaries hadn't been purged with their Primarchs, because Malcador had to reveal both bits of information to him. Also, once again, it doesn't say the Lost were 'incorporated', but that they were 'reassigned'. That could mean literally anything. It does not prove that the Marines joined the VII and XIII.

 

 

All of the Lost Legion Marines had their memories wiped. Heck, pretty much everyone beside the Emperor and Malcador had their memories of the Missing Primarchs wiped!

Are you even reading the responses to your posts? This isn't news to me, in fact I cite it in the post you quoted as a contributory factor as to why 'the Soul Drinkers are II/XI Legion' doesn't make sense.

 

However, all of this is actually somewhat off topic. Because you still haven't addressed the other issue, that this hypothetical absorption of the lost did not boost the strength of the VII and XIII in any appreciable way. So there's no reason to assume a hypothetical absorption by the Luna Wolves would be any different. So there is no appreciable effect on the Heresy, as Legion strengths remain essentially the same.

[Billy the Squid]

Horus was very upset when Malcador unpersonned the Two Lost Primarchs. I wondered how the Heresy would have changed had Horus gotten the Two Lost Legions (Marines, Geneseed, Ships, etc.) assimilated into the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus instead of the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

 

How many Imperial Fist and Ultramarine Astartes as well as HH-characters were from the Lost Legions and are now transferred to the Sons of Horus? What woupd be the size of the SoH, IF and UM Legions at the start of this Hypothetical Heresy?

 

Is there any basis to that? Sounds like pure speculation to me. 

 

Nothing has ever been confirmed about what happened to the II and XI legions, it's in effect a secret known among the Primarchs and others in the highest echelons of the Imperial Hierarchy but forbidden to be spoken of out loud. Both Legions and their Primarchs were subject to the Edict of Obliteration, Damnatio Memoriae, ie: the damnation of memory. Whatever happened to them and their Primarchs was so horrendous the Emperor declared that none should speak their name again. Not even the Traitor legions who were declared Excommunicate Traitoris and have their records sealed were subject to the same level of redaction as the II and IX. 

 

Doesn't really mesh that such extreme stance would then let the remaining Astatrtes to be reabsorbed back into other Legions, that defeats the entire point of the Edict of Obliteration to wipe the Legions from memory. 

 

Personally, more likely is that they were caught up in the Rangdan Xenocides, the Dark Angles took massive casualties holding the invasion back, as did the Space Wolves, the Death Guard were forced to take emergency intakes of recruits to keep their strength up, entire fleets were lost, Titan Legions wiped out and millions of Imperial Army and Auxilia troops were killed. It took the Emperor himself to unleash the Dragon from the Noctis Labyrinthus to break the back to the Rangdan invasions. 

 

I think it's more to do with the Rangdan's supposed mastery of bio mechanical technology and genetic manipulation, if anyone's seen John Carpenter's "The Thing" Imagine the Rangdan being like that, the Worm that walks, that can hide in plain sight, infiltrate and twist even Astartes Physiology into degenerate mutations and turned against the Imperium at the most unexpected times. Would explain the Bio pogroms of human worlds that the I and VI legions were to carry out,  which took decades, where they were effectively wiping out entire planetary populations which were within the quarantine zone. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Billy the Squid

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Horus was very upset when Malcador unpersonned the Two Lost Primarchs. I wondered how the Heresy would have changed had Horus gotten the Two Lost Legions (Marines, Geneseed, Ships, etc.) assimilated into the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus instead of the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

 

How many Imperial Fist and Ultramarine Astartes as well as HH-characters were from the Lost Legions and are now transferred to the Sons of Horus? What woupd be the size of the SoH, IF and UM Legions at the start of this Hypothetical Heresy?

Is there any basis to that? Sounds like pure speculation to me.

 

Nothing has ever been confirmed about what happened to the II and XI legions, it's in effect a secret known among the Primarchs and others in the highest echelons of the Imperial Hierarchy but forbidden to be spoken of out loud. Both Legions and their Primarchs were subject to the Edict of Obliteration, Damnatio Memoriae, ie: the damnation of memory. Whatever happened to them and their Primarchs was so horrendous the Emperor declared that none should speak their name again. Not even the Traitor legions who were declared Excommunicate Traitoris and have their records sealed were subject to the same level of redaction as the II and IX.

 

Doesn't really mesh that such extreme stance would then let the remaining Astatrtes to be reabsorbed back into other Legions, that defeats the entire point of the Edict of Obliteration to wipe the Legions from memory.

 

Personally, more likely is that they were caught up in the Rangdan Xenocides, the Dark Angles took massive casualties holding the invasion back, as did the Space Wolves, the Death Guard were forced to take emergency intakes of recruits to keep their strength up, entire fleets were lost, Titan Legions wiped out and millions of Imperial Army and Auxilia troops were killed. It took the Emperor himself to unleash the Dragon from the Noctis Labyrinthus to break the back to the Rangdan invasions.

 

I think it's more to do with the Rangdan's supposed mastery of bio mechanical technology and genetic manipulation, if anyone's seen John Carpenter's "The Thing" Imagine the Rangdan being like that, the Worm that walks, that can hide in plain sight, infiltrate and twist even Astartes Physiology into degenerate mutations and turned against the Imperium at the most unexpected times. Would explain the Bio pogroms of human worlds that the I and VI legions were to carry out, which took decades, where they were effectively wiping out entire planetary populations which were within the quarantine zone.

Um your hypothesis isn't even as damaging as a 1/900th of the Heresy itself. Dorn said what the Lost did was so dangerous they had to die AND the knowledge has to be kept secret otherwise it would destroy the Imperium even after the Great Rift. Three Legions taking heavy casualties and Millions of dead amongst the Imperial Army is not even a drop in the bucket in the Heresy

 

The Heresy killed over 75% of Marines as well as Trillions of people before Beta-Garmon. Yet people know of the Heresy. The knowledge of what happened to the Lost will destroy the Imperium when it comes to light, even in M32

 

I doubt the Emperor would unleash the 'Dragon' known as the Void Dragon/Omnissiah as it would mean the Mechanicus outright defecting to the Necrons and C'tan. Also, the countless Baneblades and Ships the Imperium has are controlled by the Void Dragon for maximum carnage

[Billy the Squid]

 

 

Horus was very upset when Malcador unpersonned the Two Lost Primarchs. I wondered how the Heresy would have changed had Horus gotten the Two Lost Legions (Marines, Geneseed, Ships, etc.) assimilated into the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus instead of the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

 

How many Imperial Fist and Ultramarine Astartes as well as HH-characters were from the Lost Legions and are now transferred to the Sons of Horus? What woupd be the size of the SoH, IF and UM Legions at the start of this Hypothetical Heresy?

Is there any basis to that? Sounds like pure speculation to me.

 

Nothing has ever been confirmed about what happened to the II and XI legions, it's in effect a secret known among the Primarchs and others in the highest echelons of the Imperial Hierarchy but forbidden to be spoken of out loud. Both Legions and their Primarchs were subject to the Edict of Obliteration, Damnatio Memoriae, ie: the damnation of memory. Whatever happened to them and their Primarchs was so horrendous the Emperor declared that none should speak their name again. Not even the Traitor legions who were declared Excommunicate Traitoris and have their records sealed were subject to the same level of redaction as the II and IX.

 

Doesn't really mesh that such extreme stance would then let the remaining Astatrtes to be reabsorbed back into other Legions, that defeats the entire point of the Edict of Obliteration to wipe the Legions from memory.

 

Personally, more likely is that they were caught up in the Rangdan Xenocides, the Dark Angles took massive casualties holding the invasion back, as did the Space Wolves, the Death Guard were forced to take emergency intakes of recruits to keep their strength up, entire fleets were lost, Titan Legions wiped out and millions of Imperial Army and Auxilia troops were killed. It took the Emperor himself to unleash the Dragon from the Noctis Labyrinthus to break the back to the Rangdan invasions.

 

I think it's more to do with the Rangdan's supposed mastery of bio mechanical technology and genetic manipulation, if anyone's seen John Carpenter's "The Thing" Imagine the Rangdan being like that, the Worm that walks, that can hide in plain sight, infiltrate and twist even Astartes Physiology into degenerate mutations and turned against the Imperium at the most unexpected times. Would explain the Bio pogroms of human worlds that the I and VI legions were to carry out, which took decades, where they were effectively wiping out entire planetary populations which were within the quarantine zone.

Um your hypothesis isn't even as damaging as a 1/900th of the Heresy itself. Dorn said what the Lost did was so dangerous they had to die AND the knowledge has to be kept secret otherwise it would destroy the Imperium even after the Great Rift. Three Legions taking heavy casualties and Millions of dead amongst the Imperial Army is not even a drop in the bucket in the Heresy

 

The Heresy killed over 75% of Marines as well as Trillions of people before Beta-Garmon. Yet people know of the Heresy. The knowledge of what happened to the Lost will destroy the Imperium when it comes to light, even in M32

 

I doubt the Emperor would unleash the 'Dragon' known as the Void Dragon/Omnissiah as it would mean the Mechanicus outright defecting to the Necrons and C'tan. Also, the countless Baneblades and Ships the Imperium has are controlled by the Void Dragon for maximum carnage

 

 

Yes, which is why the Rangdan Xenocides were seen as the most damaging conflict in the Imperium's history before the Horus threw his little temper tantrum and kicked off the Heresy. 

 

Yes, and having to exterminated entire planetary populations within sector wide quarantine zones, destroy Primarchs and their Legions because they were somehow genetically twisted and co opted by the Rangdan even without their own knowledge is pretty damning, better to enforce an Edict of Oblivion and deny the knowledge and the full extent of the bio pogroms and the extent to which they reached through the Imperium, wiping out innocents for the fear the Rangdan organisms would breach the quarantine zone is going to go down by a lead balloon to the average Imperial citizen completely unaware of the horror of the Rangdan Xenocides, secondly the Legions aren't going to take too kindly having their brothers from the II and XI exterminated because there was a risk they were tainted in some way. Hence the reputation of the Dark Angles and Space Wolves changed to Legions who'd enforce orders regardless of the cost in lives. 

 

It also cost the Dark Angels their primacy as the largest legion due to the number of casualties they suffered and Guilliman's Ultramarines as such became the largest Legion in the Imperium, which is not unexpected considering they were not sucked into the meat grinder of the Xenocides. 

 

The Mechanicum have no knowledge of the C'tan and Necrons at this point, they're still dormant; there is only vague references to the Cult of the Dragon, it's slumbering dreams gleaned by members of the Mechanicum as they seep out from the Noctis Labyrinthus. It's never confirmed what is held there, although the HH book Mechanicum does make a lot of veiled references to the Dragon and it's defeat by Emperor, but it's wrapped in allegory, knowledge gleaned from the dreams of the Dragon itself.  

 

All that's mentioned is that the Emperor himself was forced to intervene and opened up the Noctis Labyrinthus which stymied the Rangdan invasion, what was actually unleashed and what damage it did has been redacted and probably part of the reason the Edict of Obliteration was put in place, but considering what we know is trapped down there it's not surprising that the II and XI were caught up in a titanic clash between what the Emperor unleashed and the Rangdan, which was so damaging to the Imperium it was never to be spoken of again, including whatever happened to the II and XI.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Billy the Squid

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

Horus was very upset when Malcador unpersonned the Two Lost Primarchs. I wondered how the Heresy would have changed had Horus gotten the Two Lost Legions (Marines, Geneseed, Ships, etc.) assimilated into the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus instead of the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines?

 

How many Imperial Fist and Ultramarine Astartes as well as HH-characters were from the Lost Legions and are now transferred to the Sons of Horus? What woupd be the size of the SoH, IF and UM Legions at the start of this Hypothetical Heresy?

Is there any basis to that? Sounds like pure speculation to me.

 

Nothing has ever been confirmed about what happened to the II and XI legions, it's in effect a secret known among the Primarchs and others in the highest echelons of the Imperial Hierarchy but forbidden to be spoken of out loud. Both Legions and their Primarchs were subject to the Edict of Obliteration, Damnatio Memoriae, ie: the damnation of memory. Whatever happened to them and their Primarchs was so horrendous the Emperor declared that none should speak their name again. Not even the Traitor legions who were declared Excommunicate Traitoris and have their records sealed were subject to the same level of redaction as the II and IX.

 

Doesn't really mesh that such extreme stance would then let the remaining Astatrtes to be reabsorbed back into other Legions, that defeats the entire point of the Edict of Obliteration to wipe the Legions from memory.

 

Personally, more likely is that they were caught up in the Rangdan Xenocides, the Dark Angles took massive casualties holding the invasion back, as did the Space Wolves, the Death Guard were forced to take emergency intakes of recruits to keep their strength up, entire fleets were lost, Titan Legions wiped out and millions of Imperial Army and Auxilia troops were killed. It took the Emperor himself to unleash the Dragon from the Noctis Labyrinthus to break the back to the Rangdan invasions.

 

I think it's more to do with the Rangdan's supposed mastery of bio mechanical technology and genetic manipulation, if anyone's seen John Carpenter's "The Thing" Imagine the Rangdan being like that, the Worm that walks, that can hide in plain sight, infiltrate and twist even Astartes Physiology into degenerate mutations and turned against the Imperium at the most unexpected times. Would explain the Bio pogroms of human worlds that the I and VI legions were to carry out, which took decades, where they were effectively wiping out entire planetary populations which were within the quarantine zone.

Um your hypothesis isn't even as damaging as a 1/900th of the Heresy itself. Dorn said what the Lost did was so dangerous they had to die AND the knowledge has to be kept secret otherwise it would destroy the Imperium even after the Great Rift. Three Legions taking heavy casualties and Millions of dead amongst the Imperial Army is not even a drop in the bucket in the Heresy

 

The Heresy killed over 75% of Marines as well as Trillions of people before Beta-Garmon. Yet people know of the Heresy. The knowledge of what happened to the Lost will destroy the Imperium when it comes to light, even in M32

 

I doubt the Emperor would unleash the 'Dragon' known as the Void Dragon/Omnissiah as it would mean the Mechanicus outright defecting to the Necrons and C'tan. Also, the countless Baneblades and Ships the Imperium has are controlled by the Void Dragon for maximum carnage

Yes, which is why the Rangdan Xenocides were seen as the most damaging conflict in the Imperium's history before the Horus threw his little temper tantrum and kicked off the Heresy.

 

Yes, and having to exterminated entire planetary populations within sector wide quarantine zones, destroy Primarchs and their Legions because they were somehow genetically twisted and co opted by the Rangdan even without their own knowledge is pretty damning, better to enforce an Edict of Oblivion and deny the knowledge and the full extent of the bio pogroms and the extent to which they reached through the Imperium, wiping out innocents for the fear the Rangdan organisms would breach the quarantine zone is going to go down by a lead balloon to the average Imperial citizen completely unaware of the horror of the Rangdan Xenocides, secondly the Legions aren't going to take too kindly having their brothers from the II and XI exterminated because there was a risk they were tainted in some way. Hence the reputation of the Dark Angles and Space Wolves changed to Legions who'd enforce orders regardless of the cost in lives.

 

It also cost the Dark Angels their primacy as the largest legion due to the number of casualties they suffered and Guilliman's Ultramarines as such became the largest Legion in the Imperium, which is not unexpected considering they were not sucked into the meat grinder of the Xenocides.

 

The Mechanicum have no knowledge of the C'tan and Necrons at this point, they're still dormant; there is only vague references to the Cult of the Dragon, it's slumbering dreams gleaned by members of the Mechanicum as they seep out from the Noctis Labyrinthus. It's never confirmed what is held there, although the HH book Mechanicum does make a lot of veiled references to the Dragon and it's defeat by Emperor, but it's wrapped in allegory, knowledge gleaned from the dreams of the Dragon itself.

 

All that's mentioned is that the Emperor himself was forced to intervene and opened up the Noctis Labyrinthus which stymied the Rangdan invasion, what was actually unleashed and what damage it did has been redacted and probably part of the reason the Edict of Obliteration was put in place, but considering what we know is trapped down there it's not surprising that the II and XI were caught up in a titanic clash between what the Emperor unleashed and the Rangdan, which was so damaging to the Imperium it was never to be spoken of again, including whatever happened to the II and XI.

Dorn stated that what the Lost did was more diabolical than the entire Heresy. The Rangdan Xenocide can't be what damned the Lost because 1) The Imperium knows about it and 2) It's not worse than the Heresy

 

The Void Dragon is the C'tan that specializes in making and controlling machines. Guess what would happen to the Mechanicus and slumbering Necrons if the Emperor was stupid enough to release it? (In a way the Void Dragon reminds me of the Psychaunnen Warp Creatures except it controls metal/machine instead of organice creatures. Void Dragon is the true Omnissiah buried in Mars the same way Giles le Breton is the Green Knight. Or the Lady of the Lake is connected to the Wood Elves)

 

Side Note: Good thing Dorn did not try to blow up Mars during the Heresy as it would have doomed the Imperium in several ways (In one Short Story Dorn considers the idea of blowing up Mars)

 

1) Destroying Mars would forever cripple the Loyalist Mechanicus and the Imperium to the point it definitely can't survive 10k years. Futhermore it would awaken the Void Dragon which would outright destroy the Sol System and turn the two way civil war between the Mechanicus and Dark Mechanicum into a three-way. Oh, the Necrons would wake up en masse and be controlled by the Void Dragon. The Imperium is torn apart by the new war between Chaos and the C'tan

 

2) The Dark Mechanicum would have been desperate enough to turn Mars into a Daemon world which means Daemons manifesting throughout the Solar System 24/7 and forever denying the technology and industry of Mars from the Imperium which is a defeat condition for humanity

 

3l Alternatively, the Dark Mechanicum teleports Mars to a far away corner of the Milky Way Galaxy, outside of the galaxy or into the Warp. The Great Scouring may not succeed as Mars will continue to give troops and supplies to the Traitors and bleed the starving Loyalists even deeper. Abaddon's 1st Black Crusade would end the Imperium

[battle captain corpus]

-][- Ok we've veered far enough now from the original post I think. Now it's just a general discussion of the Lost 2 which has plenty of merit and it's been discussed in depth plenty of times here rest assured. However if further exploration is needed feel free to start a new topic naturally. Until then....-][-

 

.....unclicks Crozius from belt....

 

Crunch

 

-][- Thread Closed -][-

 

BCC