Hopes for 9th Edition?

[Captain Antargo]

What are your hopes for the Grey Knights in 9th Edition? 

[Valerian]

Excellent question, now why didn't I think to ask this already?  It's the sort of thing that I usually do for an edition and/or a codex update.

 

I suppose I just have two major themes for things that I'd like to see for Grey Knights in 9e:

 

 

1.  Upgrade to Primaris.  I'm more than ready for Grey Knights to finally get the Primaris treatment.  We just need the right bespoke models to support the upgrade properly.  Larger scaled models with an extra Attack and Wound would be greatly appreciated.  We're now 3 years behind the times as a faction compared to all of the other Space Marine Chapters, so it's time.  If not right away, I hope at least at some point relatively early in the 9e lifecycle, and hopefully also in advance of the next version of our Codex.

 

2.  Better balancing within the Codex.  There are always going to be winners and losers, as far as worthwhile units are concerned, but Grey Knights, have always been victims of very poor internal balancing, from my foxhole.  From at least the 5th edition version of the Codex there have been several standout/no-brainer unit choices, with the rest of the units being mostly garbage, with no place in even semi-competitive play.  This poor design plagues us even now.  The rules developers really need to do some work to bring all of our units more toward the center of the bell curve, with less units existing at the extremes.

 

V

[Skywrath]

Like Valerian stated, upgrade to primaris. We are long overdue. 

 

The other thing would be to encourage a meta (whether through buffs, or stratagems) where more it is encouraged to bring niche units such as GMNDKs and Dreadnoughts. Both of them are pretty iconic for the GK chapter, and it would be pretty satisfying fielding them on the TT. 

 

Access to FW units, such as Contemptor Dreadnoughts. Lore-wise, when Titan went into the Warp, it was already stocked with everything the GK would ever need. It is safe to assume, that seeing how contemptors were readily available to Terra, and Malcador being the regent of Terra, we would have some in our catacombs. Perhaps when the 9th codex drops, that will be rectified? (I do also recall they said the FW rules are going to be managed by the GW team). 

[Captain Coolpants]

Im definitely ready for primaris too, whether it be now or in a few years. Because us getting them means we're still relevant (because we all know first born will eventually cease to exist). But they MUST have the full Aegis armour.

 

 

 

My main request, every edition, is codex balance. I miss the days when purifiers were worth taking. I remember the good ol days when I packed a stormraven full of purifiers with 4 incinerators and crowe, jump out, cleansing flame nova a bunch of things and incinerate a bunch more. Lots of cleansing was done back then!

[Captain Antargo]

Primaris would definitely be an effective addition to the Grey Knights, the armour would be a lot more specialised though. Whether it being 2+ saves but with a certain down-grade, or a 6+ Invulnerable Save. OR maybe a Primaris Storm Bolter which actually has Armour Penetration.

[Corvus Fortis]

My only hope is that we are not getting instantly overcosted after point adjustments.

[casb1965]

1. No Primaris, better Terminators instead. For a Chapter that has Terminator troops any form of Primaris will either make the Termies redundant or be so overcosted to make them unplayable.

 

2. Access to weapons every other Chapter seems to have but we don't. Never have understood our lack of Melta, Plasma and Las weapons.

 

3. More psychic prowess. Our powers, for being the elite psykers, are rubbish in comparison to some other chapter powers.

 

4. Better Warlord traits, we literally have one that is useable.

[Skywrath]

My only hope is that we are not getting instantly overcosted after point adjustments.

 

Traditionally, did that happen more than once? I recall you mentioned in the 8th it happened, but anytime before?

 

1. No Primaris, better Terminators instead. For a Chapter that has Terminator troops any form of Primaris will either make the Termies redundant or be so overcosted to make them unplayable.

 

2. Access to weapons every other Chapter seems to have but we don't. Never have understood our lack of Melta, Plasma and Las weapons.

 

3. More psychic prowess. Our powers, for being the elite psykers, are rubbish in comparison to some other chapter powers.

 

4. Better Warlord traits, we literally have one that is useable.

 

Welcome to Halls of Titan, brother. 

 

With regards to point 2: I believe it could be because psi weaponry is superior and the others outdated to all these examples. Plasma has a tendency in lore and in-game to kill it's user when overcharged, and melta and las weaponry is increasingly uncommon for the Astartes, while the default for the Imperial Guard. 

 

3. Point 3: Disagree. Most of our abilities can be cast while in psychic phase, for no additional cost, with an 70-80% chance of being cast. Some of our psychic abilities are mimicked by other SM chapters, but they have to pay <insert appropriate amount> of CP here. We get that for free.

 

4. Agreed.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Skywrath

[Valerian]

 

 

2. Access to weapons every other Chapter seems to have but we don't. Never have understood our lack of Melta, Plasma and Las weapons.

 

 

I don't mind not having access to those, as long as we do have the proper tools to do what those weapons do; which means we need some adjustments to the special ranged weapons that we already have.  Instead of "why can't we have nice things," I'd like to change the perspective to "we don't need those things, because our things our nicer."

[Corvus Fortis]

Traditionally, did that happen more than once? I recall you mentioned in the 8th it happened, but anytime before?

 

 

I am talking about 8th in general. Not that we were that great in 7th, but the army definitely was at least playable.

[casb1965]

 

 

 

2. Access to weapons every other Chapter seems to have but we don't. Never have understood our lack of Melta, Plasma and Las weapons.

 

 

I don't mind not having access to those, as long as we do have the proper tools to do what those weapons do; which means we need some adjustments to the special ranged weapons that we already have.  Instead of "why can't we have nice things," I'd like to change the perspective to "we don't need those things, because our things our nicer."

 

 

I think where we suffer is lack of good high strength ranged weaponry, the only way we seem to be able to kill anything T7 or better is to arrive alongside it and charge, thus exposing us to overwatch.

[Skywrath]

 

 

 

 

2. Access to weapons every other Chapter seems to have but we don't. Never have understood our lack of Melta, Plasma and Las weapons.

 

 

I don't mind not having access to those, as long as we do have the proper tools to do what those weapons do; which means we need some adjustments to the special ranged weapons that we already have.  Instead of "why can't we have nice things," I'd like to change the perspective to "we don't need those things, because our things our nicer."

 

 

I think where we suffer is lack of good high strength ranged weaponry, the only way we seem to be able to kill anything T7 or better is to arrive alongside it and charge, thus exposing us to overwatch.

 

 

Psycannons spring to mind here. Most units, even primaris ones are only S4, T4. Psycannons can be bumped up to S8-9. 

[casb1965]

Psycannons can be boosted but you have to buy the Psycannons, psychic buff and CP just to reach what a plasma gun or lascannon can do off the cuff. Throw in chapter tactics and those plasma or lascannons become even better.

What I would like to see is some sort of equality of opportunity for GKs.

[Captain Antargo]

After thousands of years, their must have been some development in weapons, because otherwise we'd get them right? Because we have access to the best weapons in the Imperium... right? I don't see improved storm Bolters...

[Skywrath]

Psycannons can be boosted but you have to buy the Psycannons, psychic buff and CP just to reach what a plasma gun or lascannon can do off the cuff. Throw in chapter tactics and those plasma or lascannons become even better.

What I would like to see is some sort of equality of opportunity for GKs.

 

The first point is irrelevant as psychic buffs have an 70-80% guarantee of getting casts off. So you can pretty much automatically assume it will go off. Lascannons with D6 wounds only get 2 shots from what I recall. Psycannons gets 4 shots (might be wrong here, but either way, more shots than said lascannon), as well as being comprable in damage to said lascannon. As for buying the psycannons, you have purgations squads for that. For 120 points, you can get 4 psycannons with a hammer justicar for maximum effect. Last I checked, a pack of 5 Hellblasters cost more, and they don't even have a melee weapon option available to them. Speaking from the Dark Angel perspective, plasma weaponry is only useful for them because of grim resolve. No-one else, barring Fallen gets that ability. You could make the inference that having a Captain to reroll said plasma shots would be useful, if overcharged, but then he would have to be within 6" of said unit to get maximum efficiency out of it. Besides Dark Angels, I don't see a lot of CSM chapters running plasma weaponry as a choice, but again prepared to eat my words on that. 

 

Secondly, if we were to disregard the aforementioned, what kind of equality did you have in mind? Grey Knights are at the top, only slightly below RG and IH in terms of meta strength. Even though we don't have lascannons and plasma cannons, we still more than make up for it, in other areas, more than sufficiently. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Skywrath

[Valerian]

Main problem with Psycannons is that in 8e they have only been single Damage weapons. Which means they suck big time against the vehicles and monsters that you’d want to take them for. S7, AP-1, D1 weapons are just barely more effective than Storm Bolters, and are worse than even non-overcharged Plasma Guns/Rifles.

 

They aren’t even close to S9, AP-3, Dd6 Lascannons.

 

That being said, I don’t want Lascannons on GK infantry, but I would like psycannons that were more effective against vehicles and monstrous creatures.

[casb1965]

 

Psycannons can be boosted but you have to buy the Psycannons, psychic buff and CP just to reach what a plasma gun or lascannon can do off the cuff. Throw in chapter tactics and those plasma or lascannons become even better.

What I would like to see is some sort of equality of opportunity for GKs.

 

The first point is irrelevant as psychic buffs have an 70-80% guarantee of getting casts off. So you can pretty much automatically assume it will go off. Lascannons with D6 wounds only get 2 shots from what I recall. Psycannons gets 4 shots (might be wrong here, but either way, more shots than said lascannon), as well as being comprable in damage to said lascannon. As for buying the psycannons, you have purgations squads for that. For 120 points, you can get 4 psycannons with a hammer justicar for maximum effect. Last I checked, a pack of 5 Hellblasters cost more, and they don't even have a melee weapon option available to them. Speaking from the Dark Angel perspective, plasma weaponry is only useful for them because of grim resolve. No-one else, barring Fallen gets that ability. You could make the inference that having a Captain to reroll said plasma shots would be useful, if overcharged, but then he would have to be within 6" of said unit to get maximum efficiency out of it. Besides Dark Angels, I don't see a lot of CSM chapters running plasma weaponry as a choice, but again prepared to eat my words on that. 

 

Secondly, if we were to disregard the aforementioned, what kind of equality did you have in mind? Grey Knights are at the top, only slightly below RG and IH in terms of meta strength. Even though we don't have lascannons and plasma cannons, we still more than make up for it, in other areas, more than sufficiently. 

 

 

Psycannon gets 4 shots at 24" range, a unit of Purgators with 4 Psycannon costs 101

Lascannon gets 1 shot at 48" range, a unit of Devastators with 4 Lascannon costs 165

 

Against a T7 vehicle the Purgators will do on average 3 damage, the Devastators will do 5. This is assuming no buffs from psychic, stratagems or captain/lieutenant.

However the Devs have twice the range, so can target a lot more than the Purgators could.

 

You can't compare with Hellblasters as they are Primaris troops with 2 wounds per model so, theoretically, last twice as long. Also they have a bolt pistol that can be fired in melee so0 can do damage in the melee phase.

 

Like Valerian says above I'm not advocating we get those weapons what I'd like to see is some form of bolstered psycannon that has the range or damage ability of the weaponry other chapters have.

[Captain Coolpants]

I doubt they'll change anything in regards to weapon stats (except for this blast rule on some weapons).

 

Probably just going to be points.

 

 

Of course, I agree we need something to bolster our heavy shooting. I just don't think it'll happen lol.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Valerian]

Agreed. We’ll just stick with Daemon Hammers and d2 Smite spam.

[Captain Coolpants]

Im just suuuuper hopeful that they change the minimum distance from reserves rules, following the suggested smaller board sizes. Our lack of shooting wouldn't really matter then if we could hammerhand things to death