9th Edition: Reflections and Predictions for AM

[jaxom]

Today's overwatch changes have essentially put the nail in the coffin for selecting my Mordian RDs. I might go with Cadian now since single detachments are now preferred. Steel legion is a possibility if I go full mech inf. Vostroyan is in there too although I'm not sure the extra range is of benefit on the now smaller boards.

 

As is, yes, but I'd be surprised if Mordian's didn't get something in the errata for either hitting Overwatch on 5+ or always being able to Overwatch. It definitely impacts how we can use multiple flamer infantry squads as speed bumps.

[Phubar]

We dont know how regimental traits will change.

The old Mordian and Tallarn are redundant, but the new?

[duz_]

Stu mentioned that they have reworked traits and abilities for moving and shooting penalties

 

In the steam he specifically said they did not do the same for overwatch bonuses because they still work. They just only work once per phase when you decide to use the overwatch strat.

 

I can see how that helps tone down more powerful armies. But 10 lasguns hitting on 5s isn't really anything to write home about especially if you have to pay a cp.

[Kain Mor]

Stu mentioned that they have reworked traits and abilities for moving and shooting penalties

 

In the steam he specifically said they did not do the same for overwatch bonuses because they still work. They just only work once per phase when you decide to use the overwatch strat.

 

I can see how that helps tone down more powerful armies. But 10 lasguns hitting on 5s isn't really anything to write home about especially if you have to pay a cp.

especially considering that for many Guard builds, we’ll be one of the few armies potentially starting with less CP than we did in 8th.

[MedicMike0708]

Since Mordians all ready overwatch on 5s I presume it will be another day 1 FAQ for yet another guard regiment (I think Tallarns will also need one, probably several others) as a core rule now invalidates several regimental doctrines. It also makes the custom psychic awakening doctrines more attractive as well since I can chose 2 of utility, including cover everywhere if not advancing and boosted shooting. It also seems silly that part of your natural regimental traits now requires a command point to use.

 

Edit for clarification (defensible cover now provides 5+ overwatch) so presumably Mordians would need an added benefit as charging a defensible position against the stalwart and disciplined Mordian firing line should convey an additional modifier. I realize the original post above wasn’t immediately clear, I’m post night shift and undercaffinated.

Edited June 17, 2020 by MedicMike0708

[Shamansky]

So 9th is going to be a melee edition. Geedubs really can't into the balance. Why is there always has to be an OP and OH ?

[Warhead01]

Not too worried just yet. Reading the overwatch article it sounds like Gw plans to make the really really good stuff and the very poor stuff use the strat to pull overwatch. I would not be surprised if vet squads or better can over watch without the strat. However, it really does sound like GW didn't really understand the game they wrote. Sadly I expect Tau to only get better due the their overwatch rules and buffs.  "Each codex will be the best they've ever been", how?  Special rules and strats probably. 
Aside from how nasty tau are with overwatch I don't think being able to overwatch more than once was a problem. I realize they have a reason for the change in mind but what ever it is I can't guess. Smaller tables and more units outflanking then charging, why should their be less over watch?  
 

[Captain Incompetence]

Not too worried just yet. Reading the overwatch article it sounds like Gw plans to make the really really good stuff and the very poor stuff use the strat to pull overwatch. I would not be surprised if vet squads or better can over watch without the strat. However, it really does sound like GW didn't really understand the game they wrote. Sadly I expect Tau to only get better due the their overwatch rules and buffs.  "Each codex will be the best they've ever been", how?  Special rules and strats probably. 

Aside from how nasty tau are with overwatch I don't think being able to overwatch more than once was a problem. I realize they have a reason for the change in mind but what ever it is I can't guess. Smaller tables and more units outflanking then charging, why should their be less over watch?  

 

One of the reasons Stu mentioned on the stream for the change is to speed up the game, as many overwatches in 8th were kind of pointless and wasted everyone's time. I can definitely understand the idea behind this, as I did find that a lot of overwatches I made during 8th would never impact the game in any significant way, but you did end up making all those rolls every single time. I'm also reserving judgement for this rule, as it does help melee armies quite significantly, but then again, a guard unit getting charged usually means you're already in a less than ideal situation and there's a pretty high chance the unit in question is going to get wiped out anyway. I honestly doubt the changes to overwatch will have a very dramatic impact on the Imperial Guard as a whole.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Captain Incompetence

[Warhead01]

 

Not too worried just yet. Reading the overwatch article it sounds like Gw plans to make the really really good stuff and the very poor stuff use the strat to pull overwatch. I would not be surprised if vet squads or better can over watch without the strat. However, it really does sound like GW didn't really understand the game they wrote. Sadly I expect Tau to only get better due the their overwatch rules and buffs.  "Each codex will be the best they've ever been", how?  Special rules and strats probably. 

Aside from how nasty tau are with overwatch I don't think being able to overwatch more than once was a problem. I realize they have a reason for the change in mind but what ever it is I can't guess. Smaller tables and more units outflanking then charging, why should their be less over watch?  

 

One of the reasons Stu mentioned on the stream for the change is to speed up the game, as many overwatches in 8th were kind of pointless and wasted everyone's time. I can definitely understand the idea behind this, as I did find that a lot of overwatches I made during 8th would never impact the game in any significant way, but you did end up making all those rolls every single time. I'm also reserving judgement for this rule, as it does help melee armies quite significantly, but then again, a guard unit getting charged usually means you're already in a less than ideal situation and there's a pretty high chance the unit in question is going to get wiped out anyway. I honestly doubt the changes to overwatch will have a very dramatic impact on the Imperial Guard as a whole.

 

I can't recall an instance where I had one squad overwatch more than once myself and in previous editions, playing Orks, it was just a matter of throwing one unit into combat to shut over watch down for all the other charging units to follow in. 

Sure this speeds up the game but I would thin then to get some benefit from a strat the overwatch strat should either auto hit or have a fixed set of hots and or wound rolls against the charging unit. And cost a fair amount in Cp. 

But your right, we'll have to wait and see.  

Over all the direction of 9th seems kinda weird to me so far. 

[duz_]

Well good news to balance the overwatch changes (which as a Mordian hit me particularly hard) multi charges are only successful if the dice result is enough to reach all targets

 

Means that spacing will definitely be important to try and limit how many units they tag at once

 

I think this is good for balance

[Captain Caine 24th]

Eliminating overwatch made me surprisingly upset at first. On its face it seems a very big correction-no minor tweak to 8th ed.  But, I watched Auspex Tactics and Almost pro Gaming's YouTube videos and calmed down. This doesn't hit me too hard personally, but it seems Mordians took a hit, fingers crossed they get a good update along with Tallarns. Tau & iron hands took a hit for sure. I suppose any real nasty unit like space marine centurions or aggressors took a hit.

 

I do feel that shooting into combat might equalize things a bit, and there might be more structural changes still coming to balance. Mordians certainly weren't breaking the game, but some units could leverage (game) the rules on overwatch, leading to bad games. I mean it was possible to create units in various armies for which charging was absolutely a suicide mission.So, creating benefits via stratagems (instead of special rules for whole phases) seems to be GW's answer to helping but not overpowering units--a sort of check on spam-type army construction. 

 

Anyway, I agree that over-watch did relatively little (especially for guard) but took up a lot of time (which makes me wonder if GW has done more to trim the fat on game time...). But, with the points increase (and low range) on flamers/heavy flamers, I took them infrequently in 8th. Though I just did paint two hellhounds, which I suspect won't get to bathe the enemy in cleansing flame before being struck down by furious thunderhammers.

 

Overwatch really didn't impact my normal squads at all, maybe I killed 50 points a game. But other rules are adding up... I'm also concerned for the humble infantry due to prior twitch stream comments about redoing leadership (though i agree the morale phase isn't particularly meaningful in 8th, like overwatch). I worry about things like Reivers, Scions, psychic powers, and Nightlords getting a boost.

 

Also, points are going up, and the cost of infantry isn't just points, I use them for several purposes. For example, using them to screen tanks, essentially makes them a required cost to buy tanks, like a battle cannon. Points increases could compound fundamental rule mechanic changes too. In 8th I used infantry squads largely to form a protective barrier from assault, zone out areas of the board for deep strike, to push up the board to obtain (or prevent the enemy from obtaining) objectives. Still, I felt squads didn't instantly die or flee the board. They moved fast, were usable, and reasonably durable (especially with the take cover strat). 

 

I keep hearing that reserves are changed, and a player can even charge out of reserves while in their own deployment zone--and even while in engagement range. Well, that might get crazy. But, if something like that is true--do i put my infantry on the board edges anyway, knowing they could be in combat right away? Do I deploy to the table-center to avoid immediate combat, which might make me a prime target for multiple assaults? Do I bait the enemy with my own units near the table edge, knowing I've paid CP for some heavy hitters (maybe bullgryns or death riders could use CP or get a special rule)? Do I rely on an armored company so as to not need infantry? So many unknowns...

 

Thus far, no overwatch, reserve shenangians, smaller table size, tanks able to engage in close combat = GW encouragement not to deploy in a tight castle on one corner of the board, planning on sitting and shooting all game. Now, I'm still going to order a Minotaur artillery tank, but that's because it's awesome, not because I believe it'll have any functionality whatsoever in 9th.

[Warhead01]

Only just saw this.

[duz_]

I got excited when I first saw that

 

Then I realised it was just new Character targeting rules

 

I do like the changes though less gamey

 

 

Intriguing part is the mention of characters in squads...

[WarriorFish]

My guess is that covers things like Bile and friend, or the Dark Apostle and minions? Essentially character retinues, so maybe we can see more of this - a return of Command Squads as something other than a random unit wandering around maybe?

[Are Verlo]

Ork characters can have grots and I am not sure if the grots have the character keyword.

Same goes for gsc familiars and the medicae servitors for the Death korps revenant quartermaster.

[Wassa]

Bit worried what this means for company commanders.

 

I used to have 2 infantry squads up front and a commander about 6” behind in a V shape. Seems like we’ll have to keep them a lot closer.

 

Interestingly RAW, we can use indirect fire on characters with noone within 3”.

[noigrim]

The new edition has hirdes nerf so tanks and scions will show up more

[Warhead01]

Ork characters can have grots and I am not sure if the grots have the character keyword.

Same goes for gsc familiars and the medicae servitors for the Death korps revenant quartermaster.

Gw is very inconsistent about that. The pain boy has a runt modeled onto his back. and can tank one as an assistant. The Big Mek can take an oiler, which would be an extra model. The War boss has an attack squig, if you look at Grukk it's modeled to sit on his base. but it's just another weapon and has no stats to be off his base. 

It could very well just be a catch all to cover Gw just doing what ever and not confusing players with weird model situations. 

 

 

[sairence]

I think it's simply that everything you put on the table is a unit, even if the unit just consists of one 1 character model.

[GuardDaddy]

At the minute understanding the form the game will take based on snippets is a bit like complaining about a model based on its 'rumour engine' photograph.

 

No change seems overly broken - the direction of travel in design principle seems fine to me.

 

No one played Mordian to access their trait. Basically because it's a trait based on in action within the control of your opponent. It is their decision to charge (or not) that triggers it. The most popular traits are ones that support your 'active' decisions - movement buff - attacks inc strength - boosting chance to hit. These are better simply because you control them.

 

People play Mordian because they look bloody awesome.

 

Editions come and go... the guard are forever (hand on heart, single tear trickling down cheek, aquilla in background)

Edited June 19, 2020 by GuardDaddy

[NatBrannigan]

I wonder if some of the crummier traits from PA will make more sense to take after we see all the 9th edition rules? Looking forward to this release, I think it'll make life a bit harder for Guard by the looks of it but they seem like sensible updates to me.

[jaxom]

 

 

Not too worried just yet. Reading the overwatch article it sounds like Gw plans to make the really really good stuff and the very poor stuff use the strat to pull overwatch. I would not be surprised if vet squads or better can over watch without the strat. However, it really does sound like GW didn't really understand the game they wrote. Sadly I expect Tau to only get better due the their overwatch rules and buffs.  "Each codex will be the best they've ever been", how?  Special rules and strats probably. 

Aside from how nasty tau are with overwatch I don't think being able to overwatch more than once was a problem. I realize they have a reason for the change in mind but what ever it is I can't guess. Smaller tables and more units outflanking then charging, why should their be less over watch?  

 

One of the reasons Stu mentioned on the stream for the change is to speed up the game, as many overwatches in 8th were kind of pointless and wasted everyone's time. I can definitely understand the idea behind this, as I did find that a lot of overwatches I made during 8th would never impact the game in any significant way, but you did end up making all those rolls every single time. I'm also reserving judgement for this rule, as it does help melee armies quite significantly, but then again, a guard unit getting charged usually means you're already in a less than ideal situation and there's a pretty high chance the unit in question is going to get wiped out anyway. I honestly doubt the changes to overwatch will have a very dramatic impact on the Imperial Guard as a whole.

 

I can't recall an instance where I had one squad overwatch more than once myself and in previous editions, playing Orks, it was just a matter of throwing one unit into combat to shut over watch down for all the other charging units to follow in. 

Sure this speeds up the game but I would thin then to get some benefit from a strat the overwatch strat should either auto hit or have a fixed set of hots and or wound rolls against the charging unit. And cost a fair amount in Cp. 

But your right, we'll have to wait and see.  

Over all the direction of 9th seems kinda weird to me so far. 

 

 

It's now very similar to other strats in that one has to think about which unit to use it on. 1 CP for a Tank Commander overwatching with 2 heavy bolter sponsons, a heavy flamer, and a Punisher; or a three Sentinel unit with heavy flamers; both seem worthwhile. Overwatch - the units and positioning needed to pull it off - is now something to think about during list design and maneuvering (making sure the right units are receiving the charge).

 

Also - Ogryns in Defensive terrain, opinions?

[Phubar]

 

 

Also - Ogryns in Defensive terrain, opinions?

 

 

Ogryns ARE defensive terrain! :D 

 

Sorry...

[WarriorFish]

Ogryns or Bullgryns? I'd expect most opponents wouldn't be keen on charging either that much, I think that's going to be one of the main parts to Overwatch now - both sides trying to control when it is used!

[Shamansky]

 

Interestingly RAW, we can use indirect fire on characters with noone within 3”.

Pardon me, but i do not see where this came from. RAW your indirect firing model needs at least to see an enemy character to shoot at them. I'd like to see the whole ruleset before making any assumptions on that matter.