Thoughts on Prepping for 9e

[Espresso]

Here are some of my observations from the two games I have played. Granted they were Crusade, hence Narrative games, but they were quite the fight. 

 

The Raven Guard are great in 9th due to the various tricks we can pull. We can relocate units, infiltrate all sorts of things and benefit a lot from staying in cover. It is a risky but potentially very rewarding ploy to place the Infiltrators and other infantry straight, or nearby, on objectives and thus begin to ramp up points as soon as possible. I have found this gives us an early advantage.

 

Killing characters is more important than ever due to the cap on the modifiers. Remove those and we have it easier from than on. In both games the Warlords were the first I have killed in the 2nd turn and the difference was noticeable. A Phobos Lieutenant with the Ex Tenebris is a good investment for every army list. 

 

Sneaking in a Redemptor is a nasty, nasty thing to do. I have done it twice and I am not ashamed. The first time it allowed him to bypass the first turn of a deadly Imperial Fist shooting and their bonuses to vehicles. The second time it ambushed a squad of Wulfen. Both times it was a nasty surprise and it kept my opponents on the edge and forced their hand in the deployment. 

 

Our Chaplains are a bag of tricks we can tool for specific roles in our army. Mine is with Catechism of Fire and Swift as the Raven and it worked very well with a squad of Intercessors with Assault Bolt Rifles. It resulted in a unit that can be very disruptive to the enemy plans. 

 

I have found that the Raven Guard are a mix of melee and shooting army and you have to do both if you want to play the mission. Due to the shorter tables, melee is a thing and it happens very soon, turn two max, so we have to plan for it. I have been using Swift as the Raven and our disengage stratagem a lot to play a moving game otherwise it would be hard to avoid all those fights. I am seriously considering to upgrade my sergeants with some proper melee weapons, we gonna need them.

[thewarriorhunter]

Dracos, since you have 5 points left over can you put a power sword on one of the intercessor sgts? You'd lose one attack but have some AP. I don't have points in front of me but I thought it was 4? Or is it 6 for the Power sword?

[WAR]

5 pts for Powersword

[thewarriorhunter]

There you go, I got you to a clean 2k, you're welcome.

[AenarIT]

If (and it's a big if, but the leaked datasheet says so) Terminators get 3 wounds each, I'm bullish on Assault Terminators in RG.

-1 to hit, 3 wounds, 0+/4++ in cover. They'd be a pain to remove from an objective and hit like a truck if they get into combat.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

If (and it's a big if, but the leaked datasheet says so) Terminators get 3 wounds each, I'm bullish on Assault Terminators in RG.

-1 to hit, 3 wounds, 0+/4++ in cover. They'd be a pain to remove from an objective and hit like a truck if they get into combat.

I seriously doubt that terminators will go to 3W. That would make old models (a line that GW is definitely trying to phase out) competitive with primaris offerings like Aggressors, Bladeguard, Inceptors, and Eradicators. Unless we're about to see the old models get totally replaced with the new codex coming out in October.

[Alcyon]

There was a link posted to reddit (now taken down) that showed one of the new box datasheets with the logos and it said 3w. I'd link but I dunno the rules on the B&C for it

Edited August 10, 2020 by Alcyon

[duz_]

If its an unconfirmed rumour and not the official published rules its OK ;)

 

I have seen that datasheet too and definitely is 3W terminators with 12" heavy flamers D2 powerfist and +1S power swords

[thewarriorhunter]

I have friends of friends in the GW playtest group. I heard marines going to 2 wounds a few weeks ago but haven't said anything because while I didn't doubt the source, it wasn't confirmed to even them, just rumors. If Terminators are leaked at going to 3 that may mean the rumor back then is true an normal marines are being bumped up to 2.

Edited August 10, 2020 by thewarriorhunter

[WAR]

makes sense if they are 2 wounds PL 5 for 5 marines, same as intercessors

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

If we see the basic marine statline go universal that'd be great. I'd love to see tactical marines and intercessors be the same. That puts us one step closer to unified transports. I want to put Assault Intercessors in land raiders.

[Alcyon]

If its an unconfirmed rumour and not the official published rules its OK

 

I have seen that datasheet too and definitely is 3W terminators with 12" heavy flamers D2 powerfist and +1S power swords

 

Man I am even more excited for the weapon changes than the extra wound. If they don't spike the points for them to Aggressor levels I will be super stoked to field these dudes. Heavy Flamer always made for such an awesome model that totally bit the dust when it couldn't fire out of deep strike. D2 powerfist makes them so much more useful and consistent, reducing the need for hammers. And +1 S power swords makes Sergeants thresh t4 infantry as they rightly should, makes the fluffy options a lot closer to playability. 

 

I have friends of friends in the GW playtest group. I heard marines going to 2 wounds a few weeks ago but haven't said anything because while I didn't doubt the source, it wasn't confirmed to even them, just rumors. If Terminators are leaked at going to 3 that may mean the rumor back then is true an normal marines are being bumped up to 2.

 

This is weird and kinda gross to me. Yes, smol marines should be more competitive. But it's the +1 attack for no reason that weirds me out, not the extra wound - that's easy to explain away based on their larger stature. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think this might be them owning up to the fact that they're replacing the line. Marines should all just have the same statline. Old marines are hardcore and nigh unkillable as it is, they should reflect that. The Bigger, Stronger, Primaris marines didn't turn the old marines into pansies just by existing. Especially since MSU has been a successful way to play marines for decades, they should have more wounds than a guardsman.

[Sergeant_Angle]

The terminator rumour is true I pulled this from the News section of B&C in case people haven't seen it 

 

EDIT: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365814-terminators-have-3-wounds-now/ a link to the thread

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Sergeant_Angle

[AenarIT]

I have friends of friends in the GW playtest group. I heard marines going to 2 wounds a few weeks ago but haven't said anything because while I didn't doubt the source, it wasn't confirmed to even them, just rumors. If Terminators are leaked at going to 3 that may mean the rumor back then is true an normal marines are being bumped up to 2.

Bingo. I have heard the same rumour weeks ago in one of the chats I'm in that has a few ETC/WTC national team players that are usually in the know.

It's definitely more likely to happen now, imho. 

 

Anyway, back on the topic of RG-related meta: I think that RG Termies at 3 wounds would be very good, especially the Assault ones with a storm shield (0+/4++ in cover) and the Relic ones (Cataphractii with a native 4++ and some shooting power). When you need them to survive you can give them Transhuman Physiology or other bonuses... Good luck removing them from the table. 

Granted, there's plenty of other terminators in the game that would be even better (DG ones with their disgustingly resilient rolls, DA DW Knights, SW Wolf Guard with the custom options, ...) but having -1 to hit W3 Termies with access to the RG strats wouldn't be bad at all.

[Sergeant_Angle]

Caterphractii With chainfists and a heavy flamer are looking good to me

[thewarriorhunter]

Caterphractii With chainfists and a heavy flamer are looking good to me

Which makes me really upset that my squad is painted up as Raven Guard. I love the models but do not want to paint another squad of them.

[duz_]

Yes best to stay on topic of RG in 9 th Ed and less speculation on why GW does things it does

That can only lead to madness

[thewarriorhunter]

Yes best to stay on topic of RG in 9 th Ed and less speculation on why GW does things it does

That can only lead to madness

So you're saying GW is Tzeentch?

[WAR]

Lol

[Frater Cornelius]

Had another game recently. 1200pts against White Scars. We weren't playing super competitively, so I won't go into details about lists, etc.

 

The big idea was me dropping anything Gravis from the list and to be perfectly honest, I like it better that way. It opens me to be very flexible with MoA and Stratagems.

 

Bike Chaplain using Swift and Deadly as well as Canticle of Hate with Outriders is so flexible. Leave one unit exposed for just for one turn and they can take advantage of that. Same with another new inclusion, which is another unit of 5 Intercessors using SftS. My opponent left a backfield objective unguarded to try and dislodge me from most of the other objectives and the boys were all over it in seconds.

 

I can feel a solid gameplan forming. In both games, scoring 45 on primary within 3 command phases was easy. This puts pressure on the opponent and requires action, which means he will push. This is a golden opportunity to prevent him from doing his secondaries. Meanwhile, I pick stuff like Assassinate, holding the middle and other stuff to dripfeed myself secondary points. I really like this playstyle.

 

Speaking of Assassinate, you don't mess with RG snipers. You just don't. Ex Tenebris Captain blew Khan's brains out as soon as he stuck his head out of the Impulsor. Granted, he took out the Chaplain, but at that point it was trading a bishop for a queen. Meanwhile, Shrike and the Eliminators made a pin cushion out of his Librarian.

 

Hard anti-tank is still lacking. However, a unit of 3 MM ATVs already have their slot reserved in the list, which should give me a decent shot against non-character heavy armour. Beyond that, I need to hope that they either bring character armour or nothing beyond T7.

 

Finally, the whole -1 issue. It is glorious. Elims hunkering down in some area terrain are really hard to shift. Then you have smoke on Incursors, the -1 hit stratagem if a unit doesn't attack. It really paid off big time.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Frater Cornelius

[Alcyon]

Sounds awesome, brother. How did dropping Gravis open up more stratagems etc. for you? The suits still work with MoA. 

 

Glad to hear Outriders and the Bike Chaplain are doing work. I am a little concerned about them given the smaller table sizes and their huge bases. I was considering running a Terminator Chaplain and some Assault Terminators to use Canticle of Hate and Raven's Blade out of deep strike, but if players get savvy and start zoning out their ends of the board then the Outrider package may well be a better choice. We'll see how Terminators end up if they get a 3rd wound and probably a points increase in the upcoming codex. 

 

Sounds like your characters put in a lot of work sniping - do you feel your Eliminators really provided a lot in support? Those heavy support slots are so competitive now, at least until we can find out whether Eradicators can be taken in squads of more than 3.

[Dracos]

^This^ is why I think we are going to see a lot of double Patrol Detachments in competitive list in the future. The cost of 2 CP isn't great but the flexibility it gives for creating list is going to be popular in my opinion.

[Alcyon]

Also because the upcoming codex will likely lock us into one Captain per detachment. I doubt one being a Chapter Master will get around that particular restraint. It's so weird that the Battalion opens up SIX elites choices for you and only 3 FA and HS though I guess that section does include a lot of individual characters with their own datasheets.

[Frater Cornelius]

@Alcyon - The flexibility comes from me being free to use the strats and MoA on anything that's convenient without having an expensive block of Aggressors stranded anywhere. When I bring Aggressors, both me and my opponent know what unit I'd like to use MoA on. Without any prominent point investment, I can relocate anything without feeling bad and the opponent has to play around it. This is another reason I like the bikes. I won't feel bad depositing them on an objective, but I'd feel very bad plopping a big TDA unit anywhere but the opponent's face. The whole idea is that no unit costs all that much, so there is no obvious way for the opponent to play and all abilties/stratagems can be used in a more modular fashion.

 

The Elims are never on the top of kill count or even damage count. So if you want killy, probably not a good unit. However, I never feel bad putting them on a remote objective and they tend to eat a disproportionate amount of dakka, which is fine, because of camo cloaks and -1 hit they can take some. Plus, the opponent always plays so awkwardly, because he needs to keep characters out of range. Beyond that, they are great to knock the final couple wounds of a tank with a MW.

In short, no longer the super stars of every list, but still a great panic and utility unit. I like having two, especially since I adopted my no-Gravis/Cents rule.

 

The whole mantra is to have low individual value everywhere and rearrage elements to where ever a greater response is needed while not giving the opponent no obvious target or trade, all while putting on a lot of pressure with early Primaries and making life difficult with zoning and other stratagems. If the opponent knows exactly what to do, I am playing it wrong. It may not be the best way. In fact, I believe it is still inferior to a Cent + Gravis play. But it is super fun to build and play, which is a priority.

 

As for sniping in general, I like those 4 units, i.e. Shrike, Ex Tenebris, 2 Elims, because they are good at other things, too, like killing Primaris or acting as soft anti tank. I wouldn't take an exclusive sniping unit like K-bolts Phobos Captain, because that's inflexible and limited in application.