Raiders or Sulphurhounds?

[9x19 Parabellum]

So I got 2 boxes of these bad boys because I lurve them.

 

Haven't decided yet how to make them?  They both seem interesting...is one variant better than the next?  Or rather does one variant substantially fail to perform in its role? I really like the sulphurounds aesthetically....

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Magos Takatus]

I haven't been testing them in games or running mathhammer but I am assembling two boxes of Raiders because they can fire from a decent range, annoy characters, dodge charges and jump into combat if need be. I also hear they are cheaper. I just feel that they have more potential uses compared to the Sulphurhounds. There is a good chance I may get the other variant later on but for now I'll pick Raiders.

[Prot]

If I read it correctly, Sulphurhounds can run and then flame ? I think I read that in their rules, since the flamers are 'pistols'. That gives them a massive threat range, and the other guys seem to almost exclusively be character hunters, that can dodge an assault. I honestly don't know if that's really so valuable though. However, I do like their speed, and don't forget that 'dodge' assault ability is expensive at 2 CP.

 

The 1 CP raider ability is a full 6" advance, and shoot like you didn't move. There's a lot of Pistol shots in there. Mostly looking at S4 auto hits, and a few S5 pistol shots on top of that.

 

Both units assault similarly. Where the Raiders gain the sabers (it's only one attack each though) the Sulphurhounds Alpha is forced to take a Maul (I wouldn't for the points if the option was there.)  

 

The Sulphurhounds allow an option for every 3 models of a Blast Carbine which in the current edition doesn't do you much since you can only fire pistols or other weapons (right?). It's also pretty expensive. 

 

I think honestly both of these will have trouble fitting in. The Raiders are very cagey, but paper thin. Maybe slightly better in close combat? But against someone with super weak characters, this is an okay option (Most shots have no AP though unless you wound on a 6).

 

The Sulphurhounds get you the ability to wipe screens pretty quick without having to use your specialized tanks on them. The Sulphurhounds don't have the ability to run away from a charge, but if someone charges you with infantry within 8"... they're going to feel it... shake and bake time.

 

I think the points difference in a min squad with min upgrades is going to be about 15 points higher for Sulphurs (Approx). That's considerable. 

[SpiritFox22]

If I read it correctly, Sulphurhounds can run and then flame ? I think I read that in their rules, since the flamers are 'pistols'. That gives them a massive threat range, and the other guys seem to almost exclusively be character hunters, that can dodge an assault. I honestly don't know if that's really so valuable though. However, I do like their speed, and don't forget that 'dodge' assault ability is expensive at 2 CP.

Yeah Sulphurhounds can Movve 12" Advance 1-6" and then shoot their flamer muzzles or Phosphor pistols if the opponent is somehow 9" or further.

 

Which if you cannot get the flamers in range well the unit loses a massive amount of it's threat even if the pistols are Str 4 AP-1.  Min squad is going to run you 57pts for 9 wounds due to the Alpha, a max squad is 153pts without the carbines or as +45 more if you max them.  The Hounds need to skirt the edge and torch what they can and hope they survive the inevitable melee to continue on torching.

 

Raiders on the other hand while yes have a focus on what I saw as one of the glaring weaknesses to our army, character sniping.  But they are far more flexible of a unit in general thanks to their built in pregame move, 18" Galvanic carbines, and if push comes to shove they will do better in Melee than the hounds since they have free mandatory +1str AP-1 swords.  Points wise a Min squad is also only 44/49pts and a maxed squad is 128/133pts depending if you want to give them a Data-tether.

 

The hounds desperately needed the Skirmishing Line ability to really justify them over the Raiders, but since they didn't they're going to struggle as basically every other unit that takes Flamers do, they'll get 1 round before deletion.  Raiders on the other hand fit better for Distractions, they'll never really put out enough to warrant the amount of fire they'll attract purely because they are stupidly mobile Character snipers with a built in mortal wound generator, which should kick in 1-2 times a shooting phase.

 

Now the Hounds will probably be mostly seen with Stygies thanks to their stratagem, but they're less reliable filler than Raiders imo.  Granted the Hounds just give us more mass anti infantry, which is something admech has had in spades since the start.

[Reyner]

I built my first one as a Sulphurhound as they look cool then I saw all the tactics around Raiders... I'll get another box and have a squad of each for my small admech army.

[GrinNfool]

I think there is merit to both if I am honest it just depends how you see them being used in your army.  I will start with the Raiders.

 

The raiders bring ok firepower at distance, and character sniping making it harder to LoS your snipers, biggest downside here is 18" range is honestly poor for a "sniper" unit mobile or not.  30" effective range (with terrain this isn't going to be accurate as you can't walk through buildings with cav) isn't setting my heart on fire.  The good news though is at 44 points I don't need to be blown away on their firepower.  9 wounds for 44 points on a mobile unit with 6 s4 shots and the ability to fish for mortal wounds to finish something off is just fine, on those mortal wounds the shot itsself is ap 1 too so bonus there.  They compare favorably to sniper scouts IMHO, and those are used a lot.  Add in the fact you can go get in an melee units face blocking their movement, and if you survive you can burn 2 cp to back up rinse and repeat if your opponent fails to deal with them is just gravy.  Fantastic screening for cheap, honestly the raiders exemplify what I want out of a outrider type unit.  Cheap, disposable, annoying, and require more firepower to deal with than their points warrant.  They are probably the most flexible of the two.

 

Sulphur hounds I am not as sold on yet, but I don't think they are bad.  As others have pointed out as Stygies they are significantly better.  15 points doesn't sound that significant but I feel a lot better losing a 44 point unit than a 59 point unit, not that either loss is a big deal, but you are more invested in the hounds.  It also means your opponent feels better directing firepower towards them.  Think cultists/guard, no one wants to bother shooting them but its usually necessary at some point, but shooting CSM/vets and people are much more pleased.  The upside here for the hounds is their firepower is honestly pretty good.  3 put out 10.5 s4 ap1 ignore cover auto hits (with new edition the ignores cover seems more important) 4 s4 ap-1 ignore cover shots, and a s5 ap-1 ignore cover shot.  For a 59 point 9 wound unit, with a 21-26" threat range thats pretty solid.  (again terrain will lessen that range).  Interestingly enough here, that threat range potentially isn't much worse than the raiders depending on that advance role which is a 6 if you are willing to burn the cp.  Game wise, I think for stygies a unit of these can be aggressive and do some work for you.  If you aren't stygies though I see these guys being a good fit as a counter that hides from view and rides out to protect against an oncoming melee army, probably running 6 in a squad, as that will fry most dedicated melee threats, while taking up enough board space to block the opponents movement phase. 

 

Another note concerning 9th, is the more condensed board space (assuming the minimum gets used and it looks like it will with the tournament organizers picking it up).  This plays heavily into the sulphur hounds, as less room to hide combined with their substantial (for flamers) threat range could make them pretty scary.  Its just a question whether or not the steryilizors over shadow them.  I am not currently sold on the steryilizors as 89 points for a suicide unit designed purely to kill horde (or punish poor positioning of a character) is a bit steep for my liking, but could change depending on points adjustments.  But then I play scions, too and I'm used to getting significantly more oomph for cheaper out of my suicide teams.

[DanPesci]

For those building them...how easy would it be to magnetise the heads and skitarri bodies so that you could swap between the two.

 

From the looks of the models I didnt look too hard to do but obvs depends on where the joins etc happen.

 

 

After seeing the rules Ill be definately looking at running raiders first - their damage output isnt amazing but they should do a mortal wound or two on average (im planning to run 2 units of 6 eventually when I can afford). The pregame move is super useful for screening or grabbing objectives early and they are cheap enough that losing a unit doesnt hurt too much.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The head is pretty easy to magnetize.  The other bits would be more tricky, as you'd have to magnetize the head, weapon arms, backpack and "saddle-bags" in order to properly convert them.   For me that's just not worth it for a 14-18 point model.  Just buy another kit and make them Raiders/Hounds.

 

I built my first 3 today as Hounds simply because they look cool and I like the pistols.   Maybe I'll hold on the next box to see how the hounds perform before building them.

 

The sniping thing...with a str 4 weapon..just doesn't really impress me that much.  In fact the whole weapon is very much meh to me.  2 shots on an 18" gun, str 4, no ap, 1 dam....I mean...just take more Rangers. 

[brother_b]

I think the sniping rule is just butter on top. It gives you a chance to get some extra mortal wounds at whatever your target, and if you happen to hit a character, well yay! I wouldn’t consider this a sniper unit or use them as their main roll.

[Prot]

Back to the Sulpher Hounds vs the Raiders Serberys debate:

 

I thought we could revisit this because I am still unable to get to these models but I think that's a good thing because I cannot decide between these two units. 

 

First off I feel 5-6 will be the preferred squad size. I could be very wrong about that going into 9th but it feels like that right now. So that's 2 boxes.

 

Secondly I think some of what comes into play are actually the Pteraxii! I actually think these things have a great flamer squad, and a great bomber squad mimicking the humble Infiltrators we hardly use anymore. There may be some overlap there on the role of the Serberys.

 

As far as the Serberys, I think some new stuff has come to light since we know 9th edition wise.... here's what I'm thinking now:

 

- Sulphurhounds:

 

+ Here's a question: The Phosphor Pistols which each have 1 shot (But each hound has 2) is of type "Pistol". So although it contradicts what others have said, can the models not shoot both their pistols + the sulphur breath? (Which is also Pistol type) When you consider this, it's pretty substantial over the course of a 6 man unit! 

 

+ If the above is true, or not, this is a potential squad for Wrath of Mars. 

 

+ S4 AP-1 shooting, BUT they deny cover.

 

+ As mentioned above, I am starting to think the shrunken board is good for these guys. They will be in range faster. Plus let's be honest, we will see a LOT more aggressive armies with the base game rules changing the way they are.

 

+ Here's a weird one I almost missed. I think (I don't have rules in front of me) they have Rad Saturation rule right? (They are the Vanguard Variant, the Radiers are more like Rangers). So even though they don't have sabers, and less attacks(?), they will be reducing Toughness.

 

 

-  Raiders:

 

+ Cheap. 

 

+ Pre game Move. Better positioning obviously is nice, but we are hitting with zero AP weapons on characters? Is this really going to do anything?

 

+ I'm not sure if this is good, or a red herring: That retreat Strat that allows you to move away from an assault. I mean thinking about how the board is shrinking, and the change to ONLY charging what you can reach or you fail.... You may have less room to move, and confer a bonus to your opponent by simply retreating  a few inches. This retreat move may not be enough to actually escape the charge entirely, or may endanger the rest of your army! So the alternative is you don't use it... which for me seems to put Sulphurhounds back in the lead.

 

As a side note, let's also remember we will have to pay CP to overwatch. So would you rather use CP for a Raider Retreat that may not work? OR CP for a Sulphurhound auto-hitting flame/pistol overwatch? (Again I think you can shoot both the handheld pistols and the hound flame heads).

 

What do you think?

 

Obviously I started being a Raider fan, as more of 9th is revealed, I feel like the Raiders will be too lethargic, and their best trick of retreating will quite possibly be a very situational scenario, whereas the Sulphurhound ability to CP Advance, and BURN is a very likely situation. And they might be a great overwatch squad if you are going to use that CP.

[GrinNfool]

@ prot on the retreating note, if they do multi charge and you don't move they would fail the charge anyways because they would have to go around your unit, so its a win win, they can't multi charge assuming you have any width to your line of raiders.

 

This is assuming you have 4-5 raiders and can space them resaonably that things can't get through, its likely your opponent just couldn't reach the back unit or would need a 10-12"  charge.  If your opponent is willing to take the multi charge he now needs a 10-12" charge or the charge fails even if he was within 2" of the raiders.  Basically if he multi charges you don't retreat, if he doesn't than your retreat makes the charge extremely low odds or a fail.  IMO if he is so close that your raiders have no reasonable fall back point the raiders weren't used well, and should have been sent out to screen earlier.

Edited June 26, 2020 by GrinNfool

[Clingy]

I’m currently building 9 raiders.

 

It’s a sleeper unit. I feel it’s going to be strong

[Prot]

@GrinNFool, I agree. And I was thinking about that. I think it will be a trap some people will fall into, but it feels situational because once people understand that mechanism, you'd just be doing a single charge.... when and if the charge distance is at a very attainable distance. (IE: lots of these new assault armies have crazy bonuses to charge range/movement now that we didn't see in the early stages of 8th).

 

@Clingy - Don't take this the wrong way, but please explain 'strong'. Sincerely I'm having trouble taking those points and turning them into a unit that is going to anything more than be a speed bump (to play Devil's Advocate I would suggest 6 flaming Sulphurhounds would be just as difficult to charge).

 

Obviously I started out heavily in the Raider camp, and now with board size, (anti-Raider) and cover changes (pro-Sulphurhound) I have flipped to the other side of the debate. I was always understanding that the Raiders are going to be a very lethargic damage dealer. I mean I can't remember a game where my (non-Arquebus) Rangers killed anything reliably. These are just "Sniper Rangers" on dogs a sniper pee-shooter.

 

The only wild card here is we know a massive points adjustment is happening game wide. However I heard the FLG guys say not everything is going up, but most things are. We know they have no room for future Chapter Approved Point Decreases at this point.  

 

I still have my two boxes sealed.... maybe it's a good thing I have no time right now for assembly as my Archeopters are taking way longer to put together than I anticipated. :)

[PiñaColada]

I dislike the fact that if you give a sulphurhound a phosphor blast carbine then he needs to choose between firing that gun or his mount (since that's a pistol, assuming it works the same in 9th). Assuming the points stay relatively the same then small squads of raiders should be really good for some objectives in 9th, the types that require you to use an action, as not much offensive output is wasted. Also, seeing as how you must be able to complete every charge move made in a multicharge in 9th their strat is super useful to completely shut down overambitious charges. 

 

The hounds have a tasty combination of all pistol weapons combined with rad saturation (and their strat) though. And they're a faster unit that can combine that rad saturation with other admech charges more easily than normal vanguard. I honestly think both units are good but I'm unsure if either is great right now. I'd run either squad in 5 or less though to get rid of the blast weapon buff, which is often multi damage weapons and these guys will melt to those.

[Prot]

Yea but if I recall, aren't the pistols "pistol" and the sulpherbreath "pistol"? I mean why would you bother with a blast carbine?

 

I seem to have fallen in the category of you won't have the room to prevent as many charges as you think in 9th with the smaller board size.

[PiñaColada]

That's my point in regards to the blaster, it looks more dangerous but in the end it actually isn't really since you'll actually lose a lot by using it. And it's not priced thereafter, which is a shame.

Have you played on the new board size Prot? I have and I gotta say it hasn't been quite as impactful as you seem to suspect it will be IMO. 

In either case I haven't built mine yet but that's because I have other admech stuff in the queue as well (these damn sterylizors are taking way longer to paint than I thought), but I'll build a box of each. They're too damn cool to not have at least a small squad in both loadouts

[Magos Takatus]

I really wish that the Phosphor Carbine had been added to a different unit. On paper it looks pretty impressive and the model is great yet it really doesn't fit the niche the Sulphurhounds need to fill as already stated above. The fact that only one model in three can use it means staying at a longer range isn't viable anyway. I think it's a real missed opportunity.

[Clingy]

@prot.

 

Strong - feature in prominent Admech lists and far exceed its points in value add.

 

It’s a unit that does quite a bit, it’s a great screen with the strat, it’s fast and gives board control. The pregame move.

 

You can inflict mortal wounds and target characters. It’s good for chaff clearance and also putting a few wounds on the big stuff

 

I may be absolutely wrong on this so let this post serve as a noose to hang myself hehe.

 

My 2p is the next winning Admech list will feature these.

 

Let’s see if I’m way off the mark ☺️

[Prot]

@prot.

 

Strong - feature in prominent Admech lists and far exceed its points in value add.

 

It’s a unit that does quite a bit, it’s a great screen with the strat, it’s fast and gives board control. The pregame move.

 

You can inflict mortal wounds and target characters. It’s good for chaff clearance and also putting a few wounds on the big stuff

 

I may be absolutely wrong on this so let this post serve as a noose to hang myself hehe.

 

My 2p is the next winning Admech list will feature these.

 

Let’s see if I’m way off the mark ☺️

 

 

Alrighty. Well I've been on a crazy strong run with my Admech. This weekend we are playing an 8.5th edition game (smaller board, fixed CP, new Cover, etc).

 

So what I'm doing is taking 6 Raiders in the list to try them out. I'll do my best to make them work. 

[Clingy]

Best of luck. May the omnisiah guide you

[lokoloki]

my 2 cents is that we could probably find which unit is the better one right now but we are only weeks away from 9th and its rules and points change so everything is subject to change in the near future.

[brother_b]

Regarding blaster carbines and pistols. The blast carbine replaces one pistol. You’ll still have a blast pistol and sulfur breath for the riders.

 

So what you gain is the ability to advance and still fire your unit with the assault 4 carbine at str 5. On a full unit that’s 12 shots on the advance.

 

In return you lose 1 str 4 pistol shot.

 

I think the blast carbine is very good and the final price will be the make it or break it point.

[Prot]

Regarding blaster carbines and pistols. The blast carbine replaces one pistol. You’ll still have a blast pistol and sulfur breath for the riders.

 

So what you gain is the ability to advance and still fire your unit with the assault 4 carbine at str 5. On a full unit that’s 12 shots on the advance.

 

In return you lose 1 str 4 pistol shot.

 

I think the blast carbine is very good and the final price will be the make it or break it point.

 

I'm trying to figure this out. Are you combining the Sulpher breath with the Carbine shots? I always discount the Carbine in the combination because I didn't think both can shoot at the same time, causing a conflict and a waste of offensive output on one of the two weapons. Plus the Carbine is... 15 points right now? 

 

I really like that everyone has had their positives and negatives weigh in on this matter. I still think the value of either unit might be highly debatable. 

 

I'm going to build the bodies of the hounds, and try the Sulphur Hounds. I think the problem is the Raiders will die far too quickly if they stick their necks out in anticipation of a charge. I think they should have been perhaps T4, but I just have trouble seeing the Raiders killing anything, and staying alive long enough to pull their disappearing act. Whereas the Sulphurs with 12" flamers and the advance move, could in theory come from just about anywhere, do their one turn hit on a screen, and then probably die. 

 

We'll see. So far I've been doing well with the old 'staples' in the army.

[brother_b]

No prot I didn’t add them. If you advance you would shoot the carbines. In the turns you use the breath weapons you would instead fire all your pistol attacks. It gives you an opportunity to fire as your unit advances. When close you would revert to breath/pistol attacks.

 

The 15 points seems outrageous and I would not take them at that price.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think I will keep holding back until I know the new point costs. I like the Sulphur Hounds a tiny bit more, but the Raiders have so many tools in their box for such a low points cost while Hounds feel a bit one- dimensional...