Loyalist) Daemon Primarchs?

[Cèsar de Quart]

One of the best things about the Horus Heresy is that, for the most past, the writers have ensured that you understand why all Primarchs fell to Chaos, giving off a sense of "anyone could be turned, given the right circumstances". Even the ones which turned because of the chaotic influence of an evil mcguffin (like Fulgrim) still had personality traits that the Chaos gods could exploit. Which means, the tables can be turned. Many have tried to give the good Primarchs a bad day, see how could they be turned, while the original traitors were not. Lately I've been considering what would a loyalist-traitor switch look like, but I've hit some barriers, and I'd like to see some opinions on the matter. 

 

I haven't read all the HH books, so I'm mostly looking for feedback, i.e. what's plausible versus what's absurd, in the opinion of the sages in this forum.

 

+++

 

The current traitor legions have a daemon prince of Slaanesh (Fulgrim), a daemon prince of Khorne (Angron), a daemon prince of Tzeentch (Magnus) and one of Nurgle (Mortarion), as well as two of Chaos Undivided (Perturabo and Lorgar), one missing (Alpharius) and two dead (Curze and Horus)

 

So, in keeping with the same structure, I've thought about what makes the most sense, and this is what I've come up with:

 

SANGUINIUS - Daemon Prince of Slaanesh

Many alternate heresies make him a prince of Khorne or Nugle. I think that (given the flamboyant nature of the Angels, their dark streak and their emphasis in martial prowess and self-control) Slaanesh, who preys on perfectionism and excess, is the god that makes the most sense for them. Sanguinius had spent decades looking for a cure to the Angels' gene-flaw, and I think Slaanesh could very well provide one, curing the gene-flaw by making them no longer feel ashamed of their vampirism. I imagine the Angels adorning their armour with delicate golden sculpture and sporting extravagant golden wings, while Sanguinius himself, scarred and battered after fighting loyal Horus, his wings broken, would seal his pact with Slaanesh by doning a golden mask (weeping blood, of course) and regrowing three pairs of peacock wings.

 

LEMAN RUSS - Obviously Daemon Prince of Khorne

Not just their love of battle and their sense of honour matches that of Khorne, but also their loose-cannon nature and the fact that Khorne is (or was) usually identified with hounds and dogs. The Wolves would become wolfman-like bloodletters, essentially.

I imagine the Daemon Prince Russ as a giant wolfman, red skin and grey fur. Maybe his head is a wolf skull with flaming eyes?

 

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - JONSON, CORAX or the KHAN?

Magnus was an obvious choice for Tzeentch, since he was a powerful sorcerer. When you consider that the Khan was also a psyker, you start to feel there can be something to go on there. At the same time, the Angels' obsession with secrets and the occult is prominent in their character (even if, for the most part, reflects their post-Heresy history).

 

Corvus Corax, from his side, was obsessed with the dwindling numbers of his Legion. Tzeentch can be an interesting choice for him to follow up on, since he could offer a Rubric-like solution to Corax, while making a black-bird daemon Corax a possibility.

 

Daemon Prince of Nurgle - FERRUS MANUS or CORAX?

The connection between Nurgle and Mortarion was never, in my opinion, a big one. I always felt Mortarion's choice didn't stem from his own character but from the circumstances he was brought up with and the planet he landed on. With Ferrus Manus and Corax, things are different.

 

While Ferrus Manus could be the Perturabo of this setting, a way for him to choose flesh over metal and use Nurgle to carry out this obsession is a possibility.

 

At the same time, Corax could also fit Nurgle, since Nurgle could offer his help in curing his Legion and bolstering its numbers through regeneration and resistance to wounds.

 

ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - Loyalist

Most alternate heresy struggle with Guilliman. Either he leads the heresy in some of them or he dies early and never turns, or he goes rogue while empire-building. To me, the third option is a cop-out (entirely valid, sure, but come on...). Rather, I'd have Guilliman lead the Heresy. He is charismatic, headstrong, and his level-headedness can be roughened up with some ungratefulness from the side of the Emperor, some envy towards Horus (which the Lion also shared) and a restless desire to conquer and build a realm in his own image. The Gods show him the Imperium he'd see eventually in M41, and he loathes it. He tries to confront the Emperor but He evades the question, focusing rather on how could Roboute doubt him. Etc etc. 

 

Since he's the Horus of the scenario, he dies (not before killing the real Horus, who plays Sanguinius) at the final moment, aboard the Macragge's Honour. He never comes back. The Ultramarines were taken over by someone like Marius Gage or Aethon, and became sorrowful and fanatical in their rememberance of Guilliman.

 

ALPHARIUS - Who knows what he's up to? I'd rather not change anything about him. He remains a "traitor".

 

CURZE - Just as in the original HH, he went rogue, instead of falling to Chaos. I don't see a way to avoid it, the man was crazy. Let's keep him that way.

 

DORN - Dead, loyalist. The genius of the Dornian Heresy was turning the tables on the Horus - Dorn dichotomy; the stubborn, square Dorn and the charismatic, valiant Horus, and make Dorn lead the Heresy. The problem is, you need Dorn to be as charismatic as Horus for this to work, and I don't think he can be. Therefore, I'd keep dorn a Loyalist, and the first casualty of the Heresy, dead by the hand of Sanguinius.

 

VULKAN - Chaos Undivided

A hard one to turn, considering he's the most loving and "normal" of the Primarchs, emotionally speaking. The only way I can see Vulkan turning is if the Iron Warriors or the Sons of Horus commit too much collateral damage on the population. Vulkan gets upset, Horus shuts him up because such is the nature of war, the ends justify the means, the Emperor refuses to see him because he's got Webway stuff to investigate, and resentment builds towards something he considers unfair. 

 

I'm not convinced about Vulkan, though. Tough one.

 

Anyway, any constructive feedback will be appreciated.

Thanks!

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cèsar de Quart

[Tarvek Val]

While I think that your argument for the Blood Angels falling to Slaanesh has a good deal of merit, the existence of the Red Thirst and Black Rage in the later years of the 41st Millennium is enough to convince me that they were 'meant' to fall to Khorne. The Blood Angels of the Heresy (and to an extent in the future) were noble but fierce warriors whose passion could get the better of them in conflicts. It's easy to forget that Khorne, as he was originally depicted and thought out, was a warrior-god of sorts — many of his mortal champions (particularly in the Old World) possessed some degree of honor, courage, and strength. They were far more fleshed out and less one-dimensional than the mindless berserkers we often see as antagonists in 41st Millennium stories. I think that the Blood Angels would have made an interesting Khornite faction.

 

This was an intriguing read, and you had some great takes on the hypothetical paths of the Heresy. I enjoyed reading through this thread immensely. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tarvek Val

[Cèsar de Quart]

Thanks for the kind words!

 

While I think that your argument for the Blood Angels falling to Slaanesh has a good deal of merit, the existence of the Red Thirst and Black Rage in the later years of the 41st Millennium is enough to convince me that they were 'meant' to fall to Khorne. The Blood Angels of the Heresy (and to an extent in the future) were noble but fierce warriors whose passion could get the better of them in conflicts. It's easy to forget that Khorne, as he was originally depicted and thought out, was a warrior-god of sorts — many of his mortal champions (particularly in the Old World) possessed some degree of honor, courage, and strength. They were far more fleshed out and less one-dimensional than the mindless berserkers we often see as antagonists in 41st Millennium stories. I think that the Blood Angels would have made an interesting Khornite faction.

 

 

Wasn't the Black Rage a psychic reaction to the death of Sanguinius? I may be quoting old lore here, but I'm quite sure it has been stated several times.

 

I did consider Khorne, but I chose Slaanesh because of aesthetics, first, and because Khorne fits better, I think, with the Wolves than the Angels. To me, Sanguinius' personal quest is to cure the Angels of the Red Thirst. The Angels are passionate and fierce, but "purging" the gene-seed of flaws, as Slaanesh might offer, could  turn their rage into a thirst for self-aggrandisement.

 

I still don't know how to make it work, in detail, though. Turning Sanguinius is as hard as turning Vulkan, but I think we can prey on his selflessness. Most Primarchs have a fatal flaw, and Sanguinius' was this. If he was put in a situation where the survival of the Angels was at stake, and he was offered a way out which involved his own betrayal, he may take it. Especially if he has already seen, in visions, the fate of the Imperium, and wants to prevent it. I prefer not to make him turn through a macguffin corrupting him, since there's no tension or emotion there. I regret a bit the way Horus was turned. He had all the personality traits and circumstances to really, voluntarilly, turn. But no, it had to be a dark ritual of some sorts, while he was on the verge of death.

 

The main problem with Chaos in 40k is that it doesn't know what it wants to represent. Is it an evil, corrupting entity (or energy)? Is it the essence of entropy? Or is it, like some writers sometimes flirt with, the capacity to be yourself, regardless of morality or contraints, like some sort of magically-enhanced twisted Objectivist fantasy? When intelligent writers get the quill, Chaos is free will made manifest, and a substance or entity that promises and delivers on those promises, a path to fulfill your potential as an individual, and a way of bolstering it. It can be used for good, for bad, for whatever you want, but it will mean you abandon your ties to others, there can only be you in the Eightfold Path.

 

At the same time, it's a divinity (or four) that corrupts and twists and deceives, a petty authority that plays with you (like you'd like to play with other human beings) and . Who would see they've been had, and keep going with it? I understand that, by that point, you're already too indebted to Chaos to turn back, but sometimes it does feel like one needs to be a tad dumb to fall into the clutches of Chaos.

 

And when you look at the game, and the basic stories in the Codices or the rulebook, it seems like Chaos is just Evil, as you say. No asterisks, no additional complexity. I liked it when I saw that some heroes of Slaanesh in Fantasy, like Sigvald the Magnificent, looked like splendid human specimens, and not pulsating masses of tentacles. But it's a trend they haven't followed through very often. Khornate warriors are mindless berserkers, Tzeentch always fields feathered sorcerers... Nurgle is the only one which has a rich character to it, even if it hasn't translated well into the Death Guard.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cèsar de Quart

[Tarvek Val]

 

Wasn't the Black Rage a psychic reaction to the death of Sanguinius? I may be quoting old lore here, but I'm quite sure it has been stated several times.

 

Yes, but the very first instance of the Red Thirst impacting the Blood Angels occurred while Sanguinius was still alive, during the Battle of Signus Prime. The Bloodthirster Ka'Bandha cast Sanguinius down and slaughtered a great number of Blood Angels, which awoke a fury and hatred in the Blood Angels Legion that drove nearly all of the Astartes (minus some psykers, I believe) them to temporary madness. I think that if Sanguinius had died of his wounds then and there, the entire Legion may well have fallen to Khorne. Kyriss the Perverse was also present during the battle, and he attempted to sway Sanguinius to Chaos (I would assume with the goal of bringing him to the worship of Slaanesh, though it's possible he just wanted to forge a new champion of Chaos Undivided). He failed, and the Blood Angels narrowly escaped falling to the darkness within themselves.

 

I don't think Sanguinius would ever have fallen to Chaos, his selflessness and connection to the Emperor made him stronger than some of his brothers. Without him, especially given the events that took place in the Signus system, I think his Legion as a unit is an entirely different story.

 

As an aside, I appreciate how BL has made an effort to flesh out the followers of Chaos more in recent releases. With texts like Khârn: Eater of Worlds, the Night Lords trilogy, and The Lords of Silence, you get good glimpses into Chaos factions that don't fully conform to the stereotypes of the setting.

* Edit: And the Ahriman trilogy!

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tarvek Val

[Cèsar de Quart]

By all means, have fun with fanfic, but I do not think this is plausible.

 

Russ is literally engineered to be loyal like a good doggo, Vulkan is the single kindest soul among the primarchs, Dorn way too rigid to ever waver in his loyalty, Ferrus too strong and stoic, Roboute ever the perfect son, his ideals so opposed to chaos he could never fall.

Sanguinius though deeply troubled by his visions towards the end still posesses a pure enough soul to pull through.

The Khan, free spirited as he is, had his doubts about the Empire and bade his time deciding which side to join, but that is not the same as being tempted by chaos; Upon seeing what the followers of Horus became, he rather picked the Emperor's side, oppressive regime and all. He is life, wild and vital. He would never embrace entropy.

Jonson grew up on chaos-tainted caliban and remained free of it's influence. If the dark gods would ever approach him, he'd just stare them down until they retreat.

 

Of all the loyalists, perhaps Corax doubted himself the most, thinking he's similar enough to the Night Haunter that their positions reversed, he'd have ended up walking the same path; That's still not chaos, just looney renegade.

 

I don't think a convincing story can be written about the loyalist primarchs turning to chaos. They stayed loyal precisely because it is not in their characters to give in to it.

 

Well, this isn't alt-history, where the variables are literally in the millions and abstraction is required. The HH is already fiction, and a very weird series at that, a loose aggregation of different authors following a couple common threads but often blind to what the others are doing until the next book drops and they need to rethink their own plans. I remember Dan Abnett saying something on these lines a while back in an interview.

 

So, talking alt-Heresy is not, well, heresy. It's not that difficult either. All the Primarchs are set in stone, but their past and circumstances can change.

 

First, I'll say that some of the things you describe are broad descriptions of the Primarchs, but not necessarily true to what we've seen in the novels. Leman Russ was not engineered to be a good doggo, in fact he often disobeyed the Emperor, or went on and had a hunt without his orders. His attach on the World Eaters had no sanction. His attack on Prospero had no sanction, and he was, in fact, reprimended for that. Russ was a very loose cannon. He was loyal, in his own way, but loyalty can be tested, and it can fail. You only need bend Russ' loyalty enough that it breaks. I find it a fun exercise. Why not have Russ suffer like Magnus? Russ sends the Wolves to discipline someone, say the Word Bearers of the Tousand Sons, without sanction, and the damage they cause is so great, that the Emperor unleashes the World Eaters, the Wolf loses to Angron and is captured. He feels betrayed. A promise is made, a bargain struck, Russ escapes the World Eaters barge leaving blood and skulls behind, never to look back.

 

These Chaos Wolves are not your Butcher Nailed berserkers, they're honour-bound warriors who will not fight inferior foes (not usually) and who have a code. Even if they, then, eat the dead and become wolfmen every full moon.

 

Sanguinius is pure, sure. So was Horus at the beginning. Can you imagine Sanguinius in a situation in which he would have to choose between his own soul and that of his whole Legion? What would he choose? I think Sanguinius would sacrifice his own virtue for the sake of his Angels if there was no other choice.

 

I agree with you in regards with Vulkan and Dorn, but Roboute Guilliman is proud, he's full of himself. His ideals are that of an ordered, perfect society, and his ambition is great. These feelings, Tzeentch can subvert. Of these emotions, ambition and pride, Tzeentch feeds. To such individuals, Tzeentch offers great rewards, in subtle ways. And the society Roboute wants to build doesnt' necessarily have to be chaotic, even once he's turned. That's what I like about Chaos: it's subtle, it plays with the heights and lows of people. It's not just skulls on spiked and human skin as an overcoat (why, Fabius? You're a scientist, why do you feel the need to wear a lab coat made of human skin?)

 

As for Jonson, I think we can take the Lorgar route with him. If his base personality shows too much strength to be turned, why not force it upon him? Crack him as a child and make the Order that raises him be a Chaos cult, who see the divine child as a Godsent messiah of some sort. A bit lazy, I'll admit, but not impossible to assume.

 

As for making the traitor primarchs good, that's even easier (kinda showing that you need only a bad circumstance in your past and a serie of dominos set the right way to send a Primarch down the way of Chaos):

 

Want to make Angron not-horrible? Make him fight his Spartacus-like rebellion on Nuceria to a successful point, or have the Emperor descend on Nuceria on the eve of battle with the World Eater Legion, to maximise loving adoration towards Father, or straight up have him be teleported before he can have the Butcher's Nails implanted. That's arguably one of the main reasons Angron turned to Chaos, a cybernetic implant. 

 

Wanna have a level-headed Perturabo? He'll never not be a cold, calculating bastard, but he won't throw his Father's dreams away. At some point he felt he belonged, after all.

 

Magnus the Red turned because of a misunderstanding. Tweak things a little and this is butterflied away.

 

 

 

 

Wasn't the Black Rage a psychic reaction to the death of Sanguinius? I may be quoting old lore here, but I'm quite sure it has been stated several times.

 

Yes, but the very first instance of the Red Thirst impacting the Blood Angels occurred while Sanguinius was still alive, during the Battle of Signus Prime. The Bloodthirster Ka'Bandha cast Sanguinius down and slaughtered a great number of Blood Angels, which awoke a fury and hatred in the Blood Angels Legion that drove nearly all of the Astartes (minus some psykers, I believe) them to temporary madness. I think that if Sanguinius had died of his wounds then and there, the entire Legion may well have fallen to Khorne. Kyriss the Perverse was also present during the battle, and he attempted to sway Sanguinius to Chaos (I would assume with the goal of bringing him to the worship of Slaanesh, though it's possible he just wanted to forge a new champion of Chaos Undivided). He failed, and the Blood Angels narrowly escaped falling to the darkness within themselves.

 

I don't think Sanguinius would ever have fallen to Chaos, his selflessness and connection to the Emperor made him stronger than some of his brothers. Without him, especially given the events that took place in the Signus system, I think his Legion as a unit is an entirely different story.

 

As an aside, I appreciate how BL has made an effort to flesh out the followers of Chaos more in recent releases. With texts like Khârn: Eater of Worlds, the Night Lords trilogy, and The Lords of Silence, you get good glimpses into Chaos factions that don't fully conform to the stereotypes of the setting.

* Edit: And the Ahriman trilogy!

 

 

I haven't read those, I'll have to get my hands on them. I'm actually very attracted to the World Eaters, one of the reasons I started this is because I wanted to have loyalist World Eaters, a stoic, honourbound, shaolin monk-like Chapter that values human life because of Angron's experiences as, well, Spartacus.

 

And if I'm not mistaken, Sanguinius was ready to accept the Kryss' bargain, but Meros sacrificed himself instead. I'd say it's not a bad start.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cèsar de Quart

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

And if I'm not mistaken, Sanguinius was ready to accept the Kryss' bargain, but Meros sacrificed himself instead. I'd say it's not a bad start.

 

Honestly, it's been awhile since I read Fear to Tread or anything involving Signus Prime, but that sounds right. That's certainly a valid point. 

 

If you're a fan of the World Eaters, I'd definitely recommend checking out Betrayer and Khârn: Eater of Worlds when you get the chance. They offer good portrayals of the World Eaters as actual layered characters with goals and agency beyond 'bloodthirsty berserkers seeking skulls to make big pyramids so Big Red Angry God is happy.' 

 

Definitely check out the Night Lords trilogy too, it may be my favorite series in the entire Black Library canon. The antiheroes of the story are some of the most compelling villains I've ever read about, ADB really nailed it with those books. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

VULKAN - Chaos Undivided

A hard one to turn, considering he's the most loving and "normal" of the Primarchs, emotionally speaking. The only way I can see Vulkan turning is if the Iron Warriors or the Sons of Horus commit too much collateral damage on the population. Vulkan gets upset, Horus shuts him up because such is the nature of war, the ends justify the means, the Emperor refuses to see him because he's got Webway stuff to investigate, and resentment builds towards something he considers unfair. 

 

I'm not convinced about Vulkan, though. Tough one.

 

This one really doesn't gel, because the canon Great Crusade was hardly 'nice' or light on the collateral damage. I struggle to see how a loyal (that's how this works right, you're suggesting loyal Horus/Perty) brother legion could cause enough collateral to set up this outcome. Remember, while he was 'the nice one' Vulkan was also a conquering, world burning warlord.

 

 

Corvus Corax, from his side, was obsessed with the dwindling numbers of his Legion. Tzeentch can be an interesting choice for him to follow up on, since he could offer a Rubric-like solution to Corax, while making a black-bird daemon Corax a possibility.

 

At the same time, Corax could also fit Nurgle, since Nurgle could offer his help in curing his Legion and bolstering its numbers through regeneration and resistance to wounds.

Neither of these make sense imo. I'm unaware of GC era Corax being that concerned with the smallish size of his Legion (after all, he exiled large numbers of Legionaries he didn't like). That only changed after most of the RG died at Istvaan V, at which point you're a bit too far into canon events for a 'alt Heresy with Primarchs swapped' to make sense.

 

 

Magnus the Red turned because of a misunderstanding. Tweak things a little and this is butterflied away.

No, Magnus turned because he sold his soul to Tzeentch due to hubris long before the Heresy. The only 'misunderstanding' was Magnus thinking himself the master of the Warp, not appreciating its dangers and duplicity. ATS makes this very clear.

 

 

Leman Russ was not engineered to be a good doggo, in fact he often disobeyed the Emperor, or went on and had a hunt without his orders. His attach on the World Eaters had no sanction.

There's a difference between initiative (which Russ, just like every Primarch had to use, operating as independent Warlords amongst the larger Crusade) and disobedience. As for the incident with the WE, it wasn't an attack, it was an attempt to help Angron that Angron and the WEs escalated into violence.

 

 

His attack on Prospero had no sanction, and he was, in fact, reprimended for that. Russ was a very loose cannon.

This is very much incorrect. The censure of Prospero was authorised both by Terra, and then later by the Emperor's chosen 'first among equals', Warmaster Horus. If Russ was acting without sanction at Prospero, do you really think Valdor, Krole and the Talons would have gone along with it? When was Russ 'reprimanded' for Prospero (him feeling bad when he discovers Horus' deception isn't a reprimand)? Russ really wasn't a 'loose cannon', in fact a good chunk of his plot in the Heresy has been the emergence of the contrarian, anti-authority streak that is so prevalent in the 40k Wolves.

 

 

ALPHARIUS - Who knows what he's up to? I'd rather not change anything about him. He remains a "traitor".

 

CURZE - Just as in the original HH, he went rogue, instead of falling to Chaos. I don't see a way to avoid it, the man was crazy. Let's keep him that way.

 

DORN - Dead, loyalist. The genius of the Dornian Heresy was turning the tables on the Horus - Dorn dichotomy; the stubborn, square Dorn and the charismatic, valiant Horus, and make Dorn lead the Heresy. The problem is, you need Dorn to be as charismatic as Horus for this to work, and I don't think he can be. Therefore, I'd keep dorn a Loyalist, and the first casualty of the Heresy, dead by the hand of Sanguinius.

Don't know why you're giving these 3 more charity than any of the others. Alpharius is easy (though I wish it wasn't, because I really don't like what Legion did to the Alpha's motivations), he just doesn't believe (or refuses to listen to) the Cabal's sales pitch. Curze? 2 real options for remaining loyal. He actually gets help when he confides in Fulgrim, rather than 'therapy by Dorn' (not the best guy to share with there, Fulgrim) thus reducing the crazy. Or because you've got a Gulliman led Heresy, nobody asks Curze to turn, so he doesn't. Then when the Heresy breaks out the NLs remain on the loyalist side to 'punish the bigger monster' (which according the the FW books, as actually what the wider Imperium though when they joined the Istvaan taskforce pre Dropsite Massacre). Dorn? If you can shake the loyalty of Ferrus, Russ, Gulliman, Sangy and Vulkan then why is Dorn special enough to get a pass?

[Cèsar de Quart]

 

 

 

Thanks, a lot of valid information here.

 

Vulkan - Yeah, as I said, I still don't know what to do with him. He may have been a warlord, but the actions of many Salamanders in novels during and after the HH show a level of care for human life that other Primarchs simply didn't show. Or maybe pre-HH Imperium was a better place. I do remember that when in Davin, the Sons of Horus caused some egregious collateral damage and that was much talked about.

 

Corax - Well, if the "regrow my legion" doesn't work because of the timeline, I'm sure something else can be found. Corax was troubled and paranoid, traits which could be bolstered.

 

Magnus - He made a pact with Tzeentch without understanding what it really entailed, that's true, but if anything, Magnus' example proves that other Primarchs also can fall, because Magnus' intentions were pure. His onlt fault was arrogance.

 

Russ - The capture of Magnus was authorised by Terra, but the orders were subverted by Horus. Valdor and the others went with him to apprehend Magnus, not to destroy Prospero. Russ didn't really show any remorse for it. But ok, maybe I overplayed his contrarian streak, just like the Khan's.

 

Dorn - I think Dorn is too thick-headed, and maybe even too obtuse, to accept other points of view. I know this borders on caricature, but big people, big emotions. 

 

How would you do it, if you had to?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Russ - The capture of Magnus was authorised by Terra, but the orders were subverted by Horus. Valdor and the others went with him to apprehend Magnus, not to destroy Prospero. Russ didn't really show any remorse for it. But ok, maybe I overplayed his contrarian streak, just like the Khan's.

 

Dorn - I think Dorn is too thick-headed, and maybe even too obtuse, to accept other points of view. I know this borders on caricature, but big people, big emotions. 

 

How would you do it, if you had to?

 

That's the thing though, it was deception on the part of Horus (plus additional Chaos shenanigans), not Russ impulsively going off half cocked or looking to settle a score. Do you really think that Valdor would have just meekly gone along with the events if he believed Russ was acting in a manner beyond his authority? Because that doesn;t really fit the character of the Custodes.

 

 

Russ didn't really show any remorse for it.

IIRC he does though, though it might be 'remorse that he was duped' or 'being sad the burning was necessary' (because PB makes it very overt, Russ did not want to kill Magnus) rather than 'remorse for the burning itself'. But there's actually a reason for that, mentioned in PB and made very explicit in Inferno. The Sons, in their defence of Prospero, proved their critics right. In their unrestricted, uncontrolled psychic backlash they showed themselves to be guilty. Inferno notes that the nature of the conflict changed because of this, from 'fighting another Legion' to 'this is Old Night writ large, all force authorised, burn everything' (which is when the Wolves broke open the Black Cull and went full bore extermination on Tizca).

 

 

Dorn - I think Dorn is too thick-headed, and maybe even too obtuse, to accept other points of view. I know this borders on caricature, but big people, big emotions. 

 

How would you do it, if you had to?

Well I'd say that's potentially unfair, as we know Dorn is capable of accepting other points of view. This can be seen in the way he is (eventually) brought round to the Codex and de-escalates the feud between the surviving loyalists. I just don't view Dorn as being more close minded/obtuse/stubborn than a Primarch like Ferrus, so if Ferrus can turn giving Dorn a free pass doesn't add up to me.

 

How I'd do it? While I'm very much on the side of 'the loyalists were the loyalists because they wouldn't turn' if I had to do it with Dorn there are 2 options I'd take. Firstly, the stupid Fulgrim route. Now, I don't like this, because imo the switch of Fulgrim's fall from 'Horus is that smooth an operator, he could play on Fulgrim's flaws and turn a Primarch nobody would have believed could turn pre-Heresy' to 'hurr durr my alien sword's taking to me, I see no issue here' was terrible. But it gives a relatively easy 'turn option', Dorn picks up some tainted artefact and that drives him off the deep end. That's the easiest, but imo not particularity good option (it was bad for canon Fulgrim, it'd be bad for hypothetical traitor Dorn).

 

Better option, you play on the divide between Custodes and Astartes (something else I don't really like, but is better and makes more sense than the Fulgrim/AL stuff). Dorn is archetyped as the Praetorian, but the Emperor already has Praetorians, the Custodes. What if Dorn finds out (assuming he doesn't know in canon) or reacts more negatively upon discovery (assuming he does know in canon) that the Custodes hold the Astartes and Primarchs in the contempt they appear to, that only the Custodes really matter to Empy, the rest being just disposable weapons to be discarded once the galaxy is won. With the Emperor himself secluded and unavailable, Dorn cannot go straight to the source to allay these suspicions (that's being more charitable and assuming the Custodes are wrong), so they fester. Dorn becomes bitter and disillusioned (which makes sense, thinking you're a worthless pawn doesn't engender loyalty or cohesion), convinced there's a Sword of Damocles over his, his brothers' and their Legions' heads. So when the arch traitor Gulliman (or whoever) starts sounding out his brothers for who might turn, there's a seam of resentment and worry in Dorn that can be built on.

[MegaVolt87]

The Khan for Slaneesh possibly, isn't there a bit where a demon prince/ keeper of secrets is tied to Chigoris/ the WS, kinda similar to Karios Fateweaver to some other

chapter(s)?

[Cèsar de Quart]

The Khan for Slaneesh possibly, isn't there a bit where a demon prince/ keeper of secrets is tied to Chigoris/ the WS, kinda similar to Karios Fateweaver to some other

chapter(s)?

 

I hadn't thought about that. The Khan does make sense as a Slaanesh devotee. 

 

As for the rift between Custodians and Astartes, and the rumour that the Emperor had planned to do with the Marines the same thing he did with the Thunder Warriors, it's a great pretext for having a plausible reason for some of our-Loyalists to turn.

 

The our-Traitors may not have the same qualms about it. We know through Ibram Ghreer that the War Hounds didn't think they'd survive the Great Crusade, and we know that Perturabo was bitter, cold and paranoid but trusted the Emperor completely at first. We know that Fulgrim was also a perfect son, driven by the demon blade (or, even, driven by Horus), and we know that Horus, among other things, was tricked into having a job interview with the Big Four while he was ill on Davin.

 

I think Angron or Magnus could be redeemed or kept from falling (take his Butcher's Nails away from the first, temper the arrogance of the second), and even Lorgar, despite being reprimanded, could have persevered in his religious doctrine once the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne, you just need to tone the Monarchia incident down (what the Emperor did on Monarchia was... too much. Sometimes it does beg the question "did the Emperor really push the Heresy into happening with his absolute approach to loyalty, compliance and morals?").

 

Maybe the one being reprimanded could be Guilliman. He gets greedy with his empire, doesn't really want to give his 500 world entirely to the Emperor, and when denied the post of Warmaster, he asks to rule the Segmentum Ultima. Maybe the Monarchia incident could be turned on its head, with the Word Bearers coming behind the Emperor to Macragge, only to witness the Emperor humiliating Guilliman for trying to build a realm in his own image and through his own vision, not the Emperor's... with the Word Bearers or the World Eaters storming Macragge moments later.

 

It would be a very different place, a Galaxy with a warp wound on Ultramar, or maybe Macragge itself becomes the new Monarchia. 

 

I'm just brainstorming here, thanks for all the good advice.

[calgar101]

Guilliman being pushed to Chaos due to not being made Warmaster is angle I've often thought about. Or he just declares Ultramar independent if the Imperium and Chaos is6a big part player but corrupts individual Primarchs.

[MegaVolt87]

Guilliman being pushed to Chaos due to not being made Warmaster is angle I've often thought about. Or he just declares Ultramar independent if the Imperium and Chaos is6a big part player but corrupts individual Primarchs.

 

Eh, could also apply that to Dorn, Lion, Sanguinius etc. For RG it would make more sense for a build up of issues, such as how he sees his way of governance superior, warfare and logistics, not being warmaster would just be the last straw, not the sole cause if he rebelled. Basically he would have to be as full of himself as Fulgrim with how he already is to turn.