Multi-Chapter Crusade: Narratively Cool or Cheesey

[Dracos]

I’ve just about put the finishing touches on my Raven Guard Successor ... and hey look 9e, let’s turn the game on it’s head. Grrrr

 

Back yesterdecade (or so there was a lad who took a multi-Chapter Space Marine army to GamesDay Chicago 2004(?) and happily took 50 ish out of a hundred or so players. I was a vanilla Space Marine but I took an army themed as a Crusade (before Templar’s had a Codex I believe). Painted up different squads with different Chapter colors. Each had a support unit ie Crimson Fist Tactical Squad and a Dreadnought.

 

I’m thinking of doing this again and was wondering if anyone else had started a similar project in the past. I have a feeling I’m going to like almost all the units in the new starter box. I’m looking for an army that can tear into Tyranid hordes and monster both with equal fervor. I’m a competitive player. So guess this is a question more for others who enjoy the tournament environment but eager to hear anyone’s point of view.

 

Obviously I wouldn’t but do you think a multi-Chapter Crusade style army would be acceptable in a tournament environments. Specifically looking toward Successors of (and maybe) the Imperial Fist. Primarily Templar Chapters (I have a bet of what’s first Templar or Primaris Chapter? Win - win). Sorry for rambling. My thoughts juggling half a dozen ideas with a potential project like this. Thanks for your input.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The issue you've got is that, in the strictest definition, you'd not be able to have Chapter Tactics, as every squad would have to have its own different <Chapter>, rules-wise.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

[CCE1981]

If everything is taking the same Chapter Tactics and Successors from the same book I don’t see an issue. If you want to be sure, I would create a Crusade insignia for the pauldron on the opposite of the Chapter Pauldron. I know a few people here created their Primaris forces as Indominus Crusaders and just gave the right pauldron their interpretation of a grey shield.

 

If you want your different Detachments having different tactics and/or Successor then you need an easy way of differentiating them. Again I go to the right pauldron. Just make it obvious and easy to differentiate at a glance and you should be fine.

[Dracos]

I like the Crusade pauldron idea to help unify the army concept. It is indeed suppose to be a single army operating under a single mono-faction set of rules. Just visually diverse. Something akin to Chapter Master Valraks recent Intercessor project.

 

Like I said I'm competitive, but not a meta chaser. Couldn't afford it if I wanted to lol. I do tend to like my armies to play as much as like a modern professional army as possible so this would be a new thing for me. Like Malone said "Isn't that just like a *** ? Brings a knife to a gunfight." Love of Sean Connery aside, while I think this could be a very fun hobby project, I have some trepidation if a non-specialized (Space Wolf, Blood Angel) Marine army can really pull off leaning heavy into the assault phase.

 

I do want a Primaris Crusade-looking army that is the opposite of my Warhawks <Raven Guard> which are balanced but leans heavy into shooting. Where as the Raven Guard strat emphasis movement and strategic strikes, I wonder if Marines can have what it takes to hammer the Big Guns and still gun down the Hordes?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Valrak's example is a little different, because the Last Wall Protocol is an actual official piece of lore, and it's not really a multi-chapter crusade so much as it is the various Imperial Fists successors literally casting off their individual chapters and reforming a single Imperial Fists legion/chapter. His army looks like a multi-chapter crusade, but in terms of both lore and rules, it's actually a single Imperial Fists army that happens to be painted in different colors.

 

Since this is a scenario unique to the Imperial Fists and their successors, you could simply pick a suitable name for the crusade and replace your chapter keyword with the name of that crusade. This will allow you to bypass having to assign every participating chapter their own chapter keyword and disabling your special rules and doctrines. You can choose the most common founding chapter among the participants or the chapter that's in overall command of the crusade when determining your Chapter Tactics and supplement.

 

A very cool official example of a joint crusade before keywords and Chapter Tactics were a thing is the Declates Crusade. The Crimson Fists and Black Templars joined together and essentially became very close to a combined force fighting together against the Orks. The Crimson Fists painted the Black Templar's cross on their armor, and the Black Templars painted their gauntlets red and added crimson strokes to their black Maltese cross, creating a unique pinwheel/shuriken symbol. One of the bolters on the old upgrade sprue even has a marking to show its bearer participated in the conflict.

 

Before you run off and do this, since you mentioned you are a competitive player, you need to be absolutely sure the tournament organizers of events or stores you plan on attending allow this. Technically, by the rules in the current edition, you aren't actually allowed to do this, because crusades are not chapters, and if you use paint schemes that are familiar and do have a chapter keyword such as Ultramarines, Raven Guard, etc, some tournaments will not allow you to play your crusade as a single army. Warhammer World is especially particular about this. If you have models that are Ultramarines blue, with Ultramarine symbols, they are Ultramarines. You can't play them as anything else. This would mean your army could theoretically be forced to lose its special rules at best or completely disqualified for having a confusing or illegal paint scheme at worst. Because you're not just throwing together various borrowed models in different colors but are actually painting a coherent crusade force, organizers may be more lenient towards your situation, but you should absolutely be aware that "counts-as chapter keyword" and multi-colored mixed scheme armies have been banned at certain events.

[Lord_Caerolion]

One of the bolters on the old upgrade sprue even has a marking to show its bearer participated in the conflict.

 

Wait, it did? Which one?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

One of the bolters on the old upgrade sprue even has a marking to show its bearer participated in the conflict.

 

Wait, it did? Which one?

 

 

Very far top right one looks a lot like it, but I could be wrong.

 

[Spinsanity]

Now that we have Primaris bikers, I can finally bring to life the 8th[/strije] 9th ed force I wanted all along, a combined arms force of White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels. I know that as Primaris they won’t represent the siege defenders, but who cares.

 

As for rules, I do hope losing the chapter specific bonuses won’t be as detrimental as most assume. Who knows.

[Dracos]

I emailed Warhammer World and received an auto reply that the staff was furloughed check back later. Emailed FLGS about ITC and got a weird reply. “We think a Crusader Army would be a great idea” ... then “check the rule packets for” blah blah blah. No one can give a straight answer. Sounds like it might have been cheesed by some jerk in the past but they’re dodging a hard No for some reason. Weird.

 

I could see it being a problem if I was using one unit painted like Ultramarines another of Space Wolves and another of Iron Hands. Very specific rules for each of those that could be confused. But using different colored units all Successors from the same founding Chapter would seem to be the very narrative kind of thing they appear to promote? I’m kinda bummed. At this rate I’d prefer to buy less models and just add a couple of the new units to what I already have.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Try emailing, or better yet, calling Frontline Gaming directly, or your FLGS, but phrase the question more specifically. Ask them if you can expect to run into issues at an event if you were to bring a legal single chapter keyword army, but with every squad painted in separate, cohesive color schemes that are painted to acceptable event standards.

 

I highly doubt any rules packet will cover this niche scenario, so you basically just need to confirm if the multi-colors part of your army will be legal. Most packets have very generic rules for painting, like "armies must be fully painted". ITC has ruled against rainbow armies in the past, but that was for reasons such as borrowing models or confusing and non-cohesive armies that looked ugly. A properly painted crusade force is different. It would be like not accepting Eldar armies with different Aspect colors or Blood Angels with different Death Company colors or Dark Angels successors with different Ravenwing/Deathwing colors.

 

Here is the ITC packet on painting, for reference:

 

The ITC suggests that in order for a player to be eligible for any prize support, all models in their army must be painted to a 3 color minimum and based. Primer counts as a color. Clear bases such as those found on skimmer models do not have to be painted and/or based in order to count as finished. Basing can consist of a simple texture such as flock, or painted a solid color such as black, or consistently based on a material such as clear acrylic. If in doubt, email your TO for approval, but consistency and a finished look are what we look for.

All models are expected to be WYSIWYG to a reasonable standard. Exceptions will be made for themed units or armies.

• When using detachments in your army that contain models with different <Bracket> Faction Keywords, then they must be easily distinguished from other, similar faction models. 

  • Example: Your army has a detachment of White Scars Adeptus Astartes and a detachment of Ultramarines Adeptus Astartes. The models in these different detachments must be easily identified by your opponent. An example of this would be painting the White Scars white and the Ultramarines blue so your opponent can easily identify which units belong to which detachment. It is not acceptable to have an army with multiple detachments of Space Marines painted in the same scheme wherein some of them are using different <bracket> faction keywords.

  • All models meant to represent a certain faction, for example, <Iron Hands> (or whatever faction) must be painted in a coherent fashion. This means that visually, your opponent must be able to identify which models are <Iron Hands> (or whatever faction).

• Sensible exceptions will be made to this rule, for example, if you painted your Space marines Librarian the traditional blue in your <Iron Hands> army, this is fine. What expressly is not allowed is to have multiple different and conflicting paint and basing schemes and to play them all as the same faction.

• Using a proxy for a model violates our policy.

• Using a reasonable substitute to “Counts As” another model, does not violate our policy.

• We recommend all models be based according to the this Basing Chart for standardization and fairness.

• If in doubt, send a picture in of a model to your TO in advance to ask if it is acceptable.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/edit

 

This is the part you need to be wary of: "What expressly is not allowed is to have multiple different and conflicting paint and basing schemes and to play them all as the same faction."

Edited June 16, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[CCE1981]

From what Tyberos quoted and what I stated earlier, I believe that if you decide to go mono-supplement, have a unifying shoulderpad and call your <Chapter> “Blahhh Crusade” you should be good. Basically DeathWatch do basically do the same thing.

 

 

Edit: And keep that unifying shoulderpad symbol on your Vehicles and Dreadnoughts as well.

Edited June 17, 2020 by CCE1981

[Dracos]

Difference is Deathwatch have a unifying paint scheme, and that's exactly what I don't want. A Campaign badge on the vambrace or pauldron is great but my dream of a Crusade of different Chapters in their own colors looks doomed if I ever wan to use it as a competitive army .... and I do. :(

[CCE1981]

I think you can do it with the unifying pauldron. That was what I where I was trying to show. Just maintain that symbol throughout the Crusade. Name your “Chapter” “..... Crusade”.

[Brother Tyler]

The thematic way to do this wouldn't be via a shoulder pad - it would be via a campaign badge (generally on the left greave for the Adeptus Astartes).

 

As long as your army isn't [deliberately] confusing, you should be able to do this under the "thematic" clause in the ITC guidelines quoted above. If any models are clearly Space Wolves, then they should use the Space Wolves rules. Similarly, if any models are clearly Imperial Fists, then they should use the Imperial Fists rules. The easy method for avoiding this problem is to use Chapters that aren't tied to a specific set of rules or which are tied to the rules that you are using. Red Space Marines don't have to be Blood Angels; black Space Marines don't have to be Raven Guard/Iron Hands/Black Templars; yellow Space Marines don't have to be Imperial Fists. Even if an army is using models with multiple color schemes, it shouldn't be a problem if they are all using the same rules and their appearance and rules aren't in conflict. There is plenty of official lore for crusade forces and similar mixed units (e.g., Ultramarines Honour Company) that this concept is no different from the Last Wall concept in terms of having lore justification - it simply draws on a different background for the mixed unit.

 

Personally, I don't think that "crusade force" necessarily means a single force composed of squads from multiple Chapters. More often, I think that a "crusade force" is at the macro-level where multiple forces combine (Apocalypse). At the Warhammer 40,000 [game] level, I think it more likely that a crusade will still deploy units in the formation/detachment level, so that a composite force might consist of formations/detachments that are individually homogenous, but where formations/detachments might be drawn from different (sub-)factions (e.g., a detachment from the Salamanders Chapter, another detachment from the Order of the Argent Shroud, another detachment from the Tallarn 95th, etc.). Chapters have been known to send individual squads to participate in crusades, but they are more likely to send sufficient detachments that they can be led by their own officer (e.g., it might only be a few squads with transports/support and led by a lieutenant). There are almost certainly times where a composite force is composed of individual squads from different (sub-)factions, especially when an organization doesn't submit viable detachments/formations to a crusade. If I was going to create a composite crusade force, it would be at the detachment level.

 

Ultimately, as the ITC guidelines quoted above indicate, I recommend running it by your TO. All of us have our opinions about what you should/shouldn't do, but our opinions don't matter if they differ from the TO.