skystalkers or sterylizers

[Montoya]

As the topic says... 

 

Which way do you all think is better to model our flyboys?

 

I like the thought of the flamer option, and the higher strength and ap are good.   Particularly interesting with the new blast rule for 9th.

 

For the skystalkers, its the strategem that has me thinking.   I don't think the grenades are enough to sway me their way by themselves (though putting mortal wounds on a vehicle on a 3+ is quite good.)

[DeStinyFiSh]

For me it's the flamers.

More or less my Infiltrators can do the same job as the Skystalkers plus they are able to deal some decent damage in melee. Skystalkers have just a few S4 no AP attacks that are not going to do much.

 

Where the Infiltrators struggle is against good armour saves. That is where the Sterylizors get handy thanks to -1 and ignoring cover.

In addition they can deal some damage in melee as well.

 

All the Stalkers have is good horde clearence, but we already have Vanguard, tons of Stubbers, Infiltrators, Dakka-Bots, Corpuscarii and the new Dogs to do the job.

[PiñaColada]

I'm with Destiny here, the sterylizors are sadly the much stronger choice between them IMO. The skystalkers have bombs which are decent but which are negated by the fact that they have better range and since they have no CC profile and really don't want to be caught in melee. So I really doubt the bombs come into play all that often unless you're willing to easily lose your unit next turn, and the targets where that trade is worth it are probably pretty rare. They have decent chaff clearing guns but nothing to write home about. Where they do shine is their strat but I'm reluctant to recommend a unit that's only really brought due to stratagem. They're fairly cheap so you can bring a unit but I just think the 10 point premium to get sterylizors is easily worth it.

Those guys are less durable per point (due to costing more) but they have long range flamers so they can so they can deepstrike and still flame the same turn and they have a surprisingly decent CC profile if they've charged. Not to mention that their stratagem is also really good. For me it's just a case of that I understand what I want to use the sterylizors for, the skystalkers a super cool unit but they just seem like slightly lesser infiltrators that are going to be impossible to hide.

[Montoya]

well that's certainly the way I was leaning as well.

 

I wonder, has anyone had a chance to try them out yet in a game?  We're still largely locked down where i live, but i belive some others have gotten out to play.

[Prot]

As much as the Sterylizors look automatic, have you guys heard anything about 9th ed that would change your mind?

[Montoya]

Good question Prot.  

 

So What do we know?   (which is only a little)

 

1. Blast weapons - would seam to favour sterylizors.   That does  of course assume flamers get the blast rule, but i think that's a reasonable assumption

2. Terrain changes - Would benefit both i think.   In my mind, it does lean towards the skystalkers, as the additional benefit of obscuring terrain would make it more likely that you can get into a position to be able to use your grenades if you start on the board rather than deep striking.

3. Points changes - this is a tough one.   Since they would have known that 9th ed was coming, you'd think that the relative points of the two would stay similar post the increase, but we don't actually know.   (the change in blast rule for example could result in a points increase for the sterylizors

4. Vehicle rule changes.   Not a huge swing for these units as I don't actually think either would be charging into a tank in the first place.  

5.  Reserves - I think this is largely neutral between the two, but maybe favours the sterylizors a bit.  Only because the abiltity to put any unit into reserve means that you can more readily find a replacement for what the skystalkers would be doing (similar to infiltrators noted above.  But of course they could do it anyway).    We don't really have a lot of mobile flame weapons. 

 

That's all I can think of.   But open to others' thoughts too.

[PiñaColada]

Well, we know flamers won't get the blast rule as blast weapons can't fired into CC and flamers were called out specifically as a great weapon to use for tanks stuck in melee combat. They might of course get a similar rule that's just named something else. If I were to guess then I'd say that flame weapons will all ignore cover and as such, one of the sterylizor rules will "disappear".  

 

Honestly, there might be some changes that will benefit one or the other unit but I'm having a hard time imagining what could possibly swing skystalkers into favour enough for me to think they're the better option (other than some massive point swing). Units will swing back and forth in competitiveness though and in a few years (with a new codex, PAs and/or CAs) the skystalkers might be the obvious option, so just build the one you like more if you don't care about getting the most efficient list.

[MajorNese]

1. Blast weapons - would seam to favour sterylizors.   That does  of course assume flamers get the blast rule, but i think that's a reasonable assumption

That's not a reasonable assumption at all.

Blast was already a rule before 8th changed it to random shots - as were Template weapons, read flamers. Those two were mutually exclusive, since one used the flame template and hit automatically (and ignored cover), one used the blast templates and scattered.

 

Now the tradeoff seems to be full number of shots for Blast (the imaginary blast template scatters onto other models, not off the area entirely), but it cannot be used in CC.

Which makes sense - back in 5th, my Vindicator for example shot at almost point blank, scattering in the most unfortunate way - blowing up itself (in the rear armour nonetheless) and the Land Raider behind it. Talk about trick shots...

[Kraken]

GW said in in the livestream that Flamers won't get the Blast rules.

Which does make sense since Blast weapons can't be used in Engagement range.

Edited June 16, 2020 by krakjen

[DanPesci]

Id say sterllyzors are the more useful of the 2

 

Both are good antihorde but the flamers are better, whilst also providing good overwatch.

 

Also the sterilyzors strat to trap units in combat can be used the turn they arrive from DS (as long as they make a charge).....

 

...whereas the bombs on the skystalkers sound good, but im not sure they'll see much use as they cant come in from DS and use them (they have to move over something), so they seem a bit at odds with the DS/Soar abilities.

 

The skystalker strat (-1 to hit for the unit you shot), is however useful to use on a key enemy unit.

 

 

 

Note - I also already have 15 infiltrators, which I'll admit doesnt help get excited for skystalkers as they fill much the same role.

Edited June 16, 2020 by DanPesci

[GrinNfool]

My honest opinion is the Sterylizors are over costed for a suicide squad 14 s4 ap 1 auto hits sounds great on paper, but that amounts to 1 and a 75% chance to kill a 2nd primaris, thats nothing really, and yes the pistol likely ensures the 2nd primaris dies this does equate to 3-4 normal marines.  They are purely anti horde, as they don't have the output to threaten elite units.  Averaging 8-9 GEQ is nice and all, but yay?   They average ~ 40 points of models in kills for an 89 point suicide team, thats not great. 

 

They require very specific targets to be worthwhile, something like devastators, dark reapers, or other elite but single wound infantry.  Or of course sniping a character who is positioned poorly.  They are just costed in such a way that otherwise they require you to make a 9" charge to have a chance to get their value. before being blasted off the table as their 10 wounds of t3 4+ save says will happen.  Don't get me wrong I can see a unit MAYBE 2 i just don't see them being something you want a lot of.

 

I am not that thrilled with skystalkers either, as others have said they are basically just infiltrators with a longer range gun and trade melee capability for dropping bombs.  As with infiltrators they do of course shine with mars.  The main advantage I would say they have over infiltrators is being able to drop out of range of "auspex scan" type strategems, though they do miss out on 5 shots if they do that.  They also have fly and 4" extra movement too so thats potentially helpful.  Obviously the potential to drop mortal wounds is nice especially vs vehicles, and even vs non vehicles reasonable chance to pick up 2 mortal wounds with a 5 man squad.

 

I think these guys honestly though will fit best as just being on the table in a lot of your fights, moving them up utilizing the obscure to not get shot and acting as a midfield skirmisher to fly over incoming transports or aggessive vehicles tag a few mortal wounds and get a few shots off.  Offering some table control to us when we in the past have had problems with having any control.

 

Now obviously local meta changes things up, as if your meta has a lot of melee squads the sterylizors become the obvious choice, and 9th could see a rise in melee armies with a smaller table, and obscure terrain, but that is unknown at present.  And if you have a lot of infiltrators already the skystalkers look far less attractive as well. as there is overlap in cost and function.  Honestly bottom line for me is I am not overly impressed with the skystalkers or sterylizors, they are ok but limited.  If I had to guess I will find a spot for at least one squad of sterylizors, and I will probably give the skystalkers some more testruns before making a choice there.  The hounds and raiders by comparison are much more useful in my estimation just due to price points.  Who knows though maybe 9th will change all of that and I will see it differently then.

Edited June 17, 2020 by GrinNfool

[DeStinyFiSh]

Goonhammer has an article up. The author thinks the Stalkers are the better choice because of beeing cheaper.

 

While I still lean towards the Sterylizors it is nice to see that Stalkers might be an option for some armys and playstyles.

[PiñaColada]

I saw that, and it struck me as sort of odd. He also suggested running them in squads of ten and if I'm being completely honest I doubt he's seen the actual models then as they won't be able to hide anywhere on the board. The suggested use of using the bombs to remove enemies in CC without having to back away is a neat idea but it's such an edge-case where something stuck in melee with you just has one or two wounds left that it doesn't really justify them IMO.

Cost efficiency of a unit is a valid consideration but, unlike the serberys units, I just don't think the gap between them is large enough for that to really be a thing. 

[Black Knight]

Stalkers are too similar to Infiltrators and I have enough of them to still use, I have no intention of retiring perfectly good models because GW tells me its time to upgrade. The Sterylizor on the other hand are new and I really do fancy dropping in, flaming and finishing off by charging.

 

I definitely agree running them with 10 models will be enough to really hurt your opponent but yeah they wont be easily hidden. That may change though when we see the new recommendations for scenery in 9th. In theory a 6" high gantry from Sector Mechanicus is now LOS blocking? It does say anything higher than 5", even if you can see right through it?

[DanPesci]

Stalkers are too similar to Infiltrators and I have enough of them to still use, I have no intention of retiring perfectly good models because GW tells me its time to upgrade. The Sterylizor on the other hand are new and I really do fancy dropping in, flaming and finishing off by charging.

 

I definitely agree running them with 10 models will be enough to really hurt your opponent but yeah they wont be easily hidden. That may change though when we see the new recommendations for scenery in 9th. In theory a 6" high gantry from Sector Mechanicus is now LOS blocking? It does say anything higher than 5", even if you can see right through it?

 

It has to have the 'obscuring' terrain trait to be LOS blocking. Whilst we know a Ruin gets this trait, im not sure that a basic gantry would (although it still may provide cover).

 

 

Agree that groups of 10 are the way to go with either route. From my own experience with infilttrators 5 is way too easy to remove (and way too swingy with those flamer hits to be reliable). I dont mind it so much with my infiltrators as i run 3x5 and they usually come in late game (ie they arent alpha striking)

 

If i really wanted to lean hard into them (which i dont, but for arguments sake) -  id run 3x10 man flamer squads, backup up by a couple of high level threats coming up the board (priests in duneriders etc). With that many you have a good chance of taking out a lot of troops/anti-infantry stuff, and then force some difficult decisions about what needs dealt with.

 

But hoo boy that aint cheap to buy (and I wouldnt want to transport 30 of these!)

[brother_b]

I guess what it really comes down to is do you want to start them on the board or in reserves? I can’t see putting the skystalkers on the board turn one. Even though they have two wounds I believe, their toughness is three and I could see them just getting deleted. I want to drop my flyers in because at least I can keep them safe for a turn.

 

With sterilyzors I feel I can drop them in and still achieve my goals:

 

Eradication or serious crippling of small chaff or low toughness infantry unit.

Softening up of elite infantry unit, followed by charge to lock into combat.

Damage of large screening unit followed up by charge to lock into combat.

 

I will have two units of 5, which will provide me more flexibility and output in melee; I will only miss one flamer weapon if I need to drop both units together but will have two goads for melee.

 

I’m super excited about the sterilyzors, now the only problem is building all the stuff. For a tech priest I’m pretty bad at running my fabricator subroutines.

[Prot]

So now that I'm mostly finishing up the Raiders, I thought I resurrect this thread!

 

I have 10 unassembled models of Pteraxii. Sterylizors are a mere 10 points more for 5 than a squad of Skystalkers.

 

I wonder if anything has changed here for people considering the 9th edition changes... the changes to flamers, etc, shooting in combat, etc.

[Charlo]

12" flamers and Talons make for a really nice squad imo. Not to mention the ability to stop a unit falling back.

 

Sterylizors are just a better unit overall I think.

 

Skystalkers are meant to be this skirmisher unit that doesn't really work in 40k as they are too light on damage and defence to achieve anything of note.

[Prot]

Yes I think you’re right. At the end of the day the way some close combat armies work the Skystalkers are just too light on damage. 

[Black Knight]

If the Skystalkers were the only skirmish unit maybe but we have our horses for that and I prefer them for that role. With those two releases there definitely seems to be a frontrunner for the duel builds. It can all change in the codex though :D

Edited January 3, 2021 by Black_Knight

[Prot]

Very true. I’m almost afraid to commit to o e build over the other. GW is almost infamous for dong the switcharoo on dual builds. This might be one of those cases! I’ve alread committed on the horsies and I’m okay with that.

[Black Knight]

There seems always to be a new book coming out for us recently, I am slowly increasing from a team of each model to two and keeping it at that. 

[Prot]

For me my collection of AdMech is getting very big. So I am looking at trying to be efficient at this point. I think the new pricing of new units also has me a little conservative. For example I think it was a good 6-8 months before I had 2 Skorpius tanks.

[Black Knight]

I still have only two but I got my second just after they were point nerfed with the update. Admech is new, so we are expensive but these are the prices for everything now. Any release from now on from any army is going to break the wallet and GW will not learn.

 

I have gotten to the point recently where I am actively ignoring Primaris releases because the old marine models are so much cheaper and to me I do enjoy building more than anything else. I just got an interceptor for my DW and I am anticipating that turning up a lot more than any Gladius tank.

 

I am interested in what Patrol we will get, but again I really hope its full of the slightly older models, I want some servitors, chickens and bots. Not really fussed if the new stuff is in it.

 

Oh yeah I also got a Vindicator, the first model back in 4th when I started and said I NEED that. I had so much fun getting that and building it.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Black_Knight

[brother_b]

I am holding off on building my boxes as well. I will build horses like Prot said but haven’t started. I may just wait until we get an idea of when the Codex will drop. That brief teaser showed once again a possibility of a Scitarii of some sort. Also, I have enough stuff just to finish my army, some solid go to units like more robots, and breachers.

 

That being said, I have my first game of ninth scheduled for Friday. I haven’t gamed in almost a year, I am excited and can’t wait. Also my hobby output has been low, I am getting excited once again and have put paint to mini recently (historical Sudan 1884 but still).

 

Back to the question at hand, I’m leaning towards the flame thrower option just because of the talon ability, and flame weapons from deep strike are great.