1st Company helmet colors

[Arch69]

Hello there

[Cleon]

So the short answer is no, Terminators have always been red helmeted, however often with one black fist (left side, never explained as far as I can tell.)

 

The long answer is originally only Dante's bodyguard had gold, and Blood Angel Veterans were assault squads with a skull instead of the blood drop for the company symbol but the same yellow hemets, then they got gold helmets too, then Sternguard and Vanguard arrived and also had gold helmets.

 

Interestingly the 9th ed starter box has white chapter logos for the veterans, which is new - previously only the Death Company, Chaplains and some Sanguinary priests have used a white symbol, so who knows, they might be First company, they might be in company veterans 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Cleon

[Brother Tyler]

The differently colored helmets for squad types is apparently only applicable to power armour - Blood Angels Terminators have been consistently depicted with red helmets since 2nd edition (Codex: Angels of Death). Disclaimer: I don't have the 8th edition codex, so I can't attest to the current information (only 2nd through 7th editions).

 

As always, hobbyists are free to paint their miniatures however they desire. So if you want to paint your Blood Angels Terminators with gold helmets, run with it.

[Arch69]

Thanks for the replies. 

[Panzer]

Well GW is kinda contradicting themselves on this one. Technically, yes all the veterans should be wearing golden helmets, including Terminators. This is according to the official heraldry in the Codex. However Terminators are always depicted with red helmets. This is mostly a case of "because that's how it was always done" since there's no particular reason for that anywhere in current fluff (nor in the old fluff afaik).

 

What that means for you is, you can do whatever you want and be "right". Golden helmets for Terminators is supported in the fluff, and red helmets on Terminators is supported by tradition.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Although not stated in the fluff, I would say there is one simple reason why the Terminators currently do not have golden helmets. The  gold helmets mark the elite status of the 1st company (this is why vet sargs have red helmets), differentiating them from marines serving in other units and companies. However, only the 1st company uses the terminator armour, so marking their helmets with gold would be pointless - the armour differentiates them already from anybody else.

But these are your dudes, so do whatever fits your tastes. The Rule of Cool always prevails.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

[Panzer]

Doesn't matter. Official fluff says Veterans are wearing golden helmets. There's no exception mentioned anywhere. It's really just pictures and models that depict Terminators with red helmets.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well GW is kinda contradicting themselves on this one. Technically, yes all the veterans should be wearing golden helmets, including Terminators. This is according to the official heraldry in the Codex. However Terminators are always depicted with red helmets. This is mostly a case of "because that's how it was always done" since there's no particular reason for that anywhere in current fluff (nor in the old fluff afaik).

 

What that means for you is, you can do whatever you want and be "right". Golden helmets for Terminators is supported in the fluff, and red helmets on Terminators is supported by tradition.

Actually, there’s no bit of fluff that supports gold terminator helmets. Veterans in power armour certainly wear gold helmets and have been depicted as such since the 5th edition codex, 4th edition if you count honour guard.

 

Not a single mention of BA terminators wearing different helmets im any of the sacred texts, though.

 

This leads to the assumption that veterans in power armour are in a „need“ to appear special by GW‘s design, while the whole point of wearing terminator armour is being a veteran and therefore a golden helmet is redundant.

 

Remember, back in the day our special veterans were assault veterans and wore yellow helmets. Assault terminators never did. While this may appear as tradition, there is nothing that proves that.

 

In fact, we know from our codizes that the Blood Angels use the different helmet colours as a means of quick identification of assets on the battlefield, being able to tell apart their power-armoured units at a swift glance from afar.

 

There’s no need for that with terminators. You see the bulky might of the chapter’s finest and there’s no doubt who’s about to tear a battle line a new one.

 

TLDR;

power armour veterans = gold helmets

Anything else = red (or whatever floats your sky chariot)

[Panzer]

 

Well GW is kinda contradicting themselves on this one. Technically, yes all the veterans should be wearing golden helmets, including Terminators. This is according to the official heraldry in the Codex. However Terminators are always depicted with red helmets. This is mostly a case of "because that's how it was always done" since there's no particular reason for that anywhere in current fluff (nor in the old fluff afaik).

 

What that means for you is, you can do whatever you want and be "right". Golden helmets for Terminators is supported in the fluff, and red helmets on Terminators is supported by tradition.

Actually, there’s no bit of fluff that supports gold terminator helmets. Veterans in power armour certainly wear gold helmets and have been depicted as such since the 5th edition codex, 4th edition if you count honour guard.

 

Not a single mention of BA terminators wearing different helmets im any of the sacred texts, though.

 

This leads to the assumption that veterans in power armour are in a „need“ to appear special by GW‘s design, while the whole point of wearing terminator armour is being a veteran and therefore a golden helmet is redundant.

 

Remember, back in the day our special veterans were assault veterans and wore yellow helmets. Assault terminators never did. While this may appear as tradition, there is nothing that proves that.

 

In fact, we know from our codizes that the Blood Angels use the different helmet colours as a means of quick identification of assets on the battlefield, being able to tell apart their power-armoured units at a swift glance from afar.

 

There’s no need for that with terminators. You see the bulky might of the chapter’s finest and there’s no doubt who’s about to tear a battle line a new one.

 

TLDR;

power armour veterans = gold helmets

Anything else = red (or whatever floats your sky chariot)

 

 

Except that the fluff section with the heraldry doesn't say that it's only for power armour. You can add that if that explanation is more satisfying to you, but it's definitely not official.

 

And yes your "back in the day" explanation is what I meant with "because that's how it has always been done" aka supported by tradition instead of actual current fluff.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Panzer

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

 

Well GW is kinda contradicting themselves on this one. Technically, yes all the veterans should be wearing golden helmets, including Terminators. This is according to the official heraldry in the Codex. However Terminators are always depicted with red helmets. This is mostly a case of "because that's how it was always done" since there's no particular reason for that anywhere in current fluff (nor in the old fluff afaik).

 

What that means for you is, you can do whatever you want and be "right". Golden helmets for Terminators is supported in the fluff, and red helmets on Terminators is supported by tradition.

Actually, there’s no bit of fluff that supports gold terminator helmets. Veterans in power armour certainly wear gold helmets and have been depicted as such since the 5th edition codex, 4th edition if you count honour guard.

 

Not a single mention of BA terminators wearing different helmets im any of the sacred texts, though.

 

This leads to the assumption that veterans in power armour are in a „need“ to appear special by GW‘s design, while the whole point of wearing terminator armour is being a veteran and therefore a golden helmet is redundant.

 

Remember, back in the day our special veterans were assault veterans and wore yellow helmets. Assault terminators never did. While this may appear as tradition, there is nothing that proves that.

 

In fact, we know from our codizes that the Blood Angels use the different helmet colours as a means of quick identification of assets on the battlefield, being able to tell apart their power-armoured units at a swift glance from afar.

 

There’s no need for that with terminators. You see the bulky might of the chapter’s finest and there’s no doubt who’s about to tear a battle line a new one.

 

TLDR;

power armour veterans = gold helmets

Anything else = red (or whatever floats your sky chariot)

Except that the fluff section with the heraldry doesn't say that it's only for power armour. You can add that if that explanation is more satisfying to you, but it's definitely not official.

 

And yes your "back in the day" explanation is what I meant with "because that's how it has always been done" aka supported by tradition instead of actual current fluff.

No, the fluff section only ever shows power armour, therefore, it only is ever applicable to power armour. There is nothing beyond that to be read into. The fluff does not mention terminator armour, making it exempt from the company heraldry, which leaves the chapter colours of, well, red.

 

Terminators also are not „veteran squads“ of the van- and sternguard, they’re just veterans that are in a squad. By your logic, all terminators would’ve had yellow and then gold helmets respectively over the years, but since they do not wear power armour, that heraldry doesn’t apply to them as they exist outside of the company structure of tactical, assault and devastator. Gold for veterans is just an extension of the heraldry employed for power-armoured units.

[Panzer]

It shows power armour because it's not feasible to give a different template for every single armour variant when it applies to them all anyway. Nothing more nothing less. By your logic it would now only apply to Primaris in standard MkX Tacticus armour. 

[Blindhamster]

For blood angels the company is indicated by the marking on their right shoulder - 1st company being a white skull.

Veteran status often gets marked with a gold helm as well these days, but it isn't guaranteed.

 

As noted the white blood angel chapter symbol in the 9th ed transfers is a new thing noted for veterans we've not seen before, equally interesting, there is a total lack of white skulls for the right shoulder pad so i wonder if that will no longer be a thing for them.

[Xenith]

Here we go again

[SnorriSnorrison]

It shows power armour because it's not feasible to give a different template for every single armour variant when it applies to them all anyway. Nothing more nothing less. By your logic it would now only apply to Primaris in standard MkX Tacticus armour. :rolleyes:

Not entirely, and your last point is hyperbole as the precedent obviously applies to Mk 6-8 suits of power armour after the implementation of the Codex Astartes and has only been updated to show the Primaris variant as it’s the new “thing”. ;)

 

So, there is no evidence for terminators with different helmet colours other than red. None. All we’ve got is hints. All power-armoured units exist in loose squad heraldry regarding their battlefield role. Primaris units including Gravis armour have been updated thusly as they’re in the battle line and reserve companies and follow the respective role.

 

Veteran status is marked by a gold helmet because that is an honour marking. IIRC the colour gold was often referred to as “holy” in Baalite texts (well, BL books and GW codices). What actually shows allocation to the first company is the white skull on the left shoulder, while veterans or honour guard can exist in battle companies too and would wear gold helmets.

 

The privilege to wear terminator armour is an honour by itself and needs no further denotation of valour or rank.

 

You and I are just bouncing theories off of each other really, and it will lead nowhere. None of us can prove anything of what was said, while the precedent supports the idea that terminators don’t change the colour of their helmets. :)

[Panzer]

Yes it's hyperbole. However it's not completely without reason though since Primaris have a bunch of different armour variants too but the template shows only the most basic one so with your logic we once again only have models and artworks as reference for those units. ;) 

 

Veteran status is marked by a gold helmet, not because it's an honour marking, because it's their heraldry. That's something completely different. A honour marking is optional and only serves to boast and as a physical "well done" pat on the back. There are plenty different honour markings like that for Marines, for example the little bolter rounds on a rope as marksman honour etc. Heraldry serves to show where they fit into the chapter's organization.

Could one assume someone is a veteran based on him wearing Terminator armour? Sure, if they know that chapters customs and culture etc., however it would be confusing for people not being close to said chapter for why there's another way to identify a veteran when there's already a system (the heraldry) in place which they can learn in 2 minutes without knowing anything about that chapter's customs and culture.

Not to mention that we have fluff references of parts of Terminator armour getting repurposed for particularly big Marines where regular Power armour doesn't always fit and which aren't automatically getting promoted to being Veterans.

It's an honour to be promoted to Veteran status, but wearing the Veteran heraldry is not just an honour marking. Don't confuse those two things.

 

 

 

Anyway I guess at this point we have to agree to disagree.

 

You base your argument on "they don't say their general heraldry applies to Terminator armour as well", which I find to be an incredibly silly argument and is basically your own headcanon in my book, and I base my argument on general heraldry applying to everything unless explicitly mentioned otherwise since that's the whole point of something being general and Terminators having red helmets because after all those years we KNOW that GW is inconsistent with their stuff and likes to stick with things often for nothing else than nostalgia reasons or because they simply don't care enough to make things right.

 

 

Neither of us will change their opinion.

[Leonaides]

Panzer - here's another possibility: Veterans paint their helmets gold, but terminator helmets are not theirs. Terminator armour is a chapter relic that some marines are allowed to take from the First Company Chapel and wear to war, but it is not, and will never be, their own suit of armour. It is a chapter relic. In the same way that the Axe Mortalis does not belong to Dante, not the Red Grail belong to Corbulo. 

 

Even the old Deathwing story showed that the dark angels first company marines were rebuked for not returning the terminator armour to the chapter when they had fought the genestealers on their home planet, and they only deploy in terminator armour. 

[Panzer]

Panzer - here's another possibility: Veterans paint their helmets gold, but terminator helmets are not theirs. Terminator armour is a chapter relic that some marines are allowed to take from the First Company Chapel and wear to war, but it is not, and will never be, their own suit of armour. It is a chapter relic. In the same way that the Axe Mortalis does not belong to Dante, not the Red Grail belong to Corbulo. 

 

Even the old Deathwing story showed that the dark angels first company marines were rebuked for not returning the terminator armour to the chapter when they had fought the genestealers on their home planet, and they only deploy in terminator armour. 

 

At the end of the day it all belongs the chapter though and the chapter is what decides about things like heraldry. It's not like Marines have a life away from the chapter and their duties. :sweat: 

[Leonaides]

But power armour is personally issued to the marine and he is expected to care for it and it remains with him. Terminator armour is loaned out on occasion.

[Panzer]

And yet it's mostly serfs who take care of all the gear.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Yes it's hyperbole. However it's not completely without reason though since Primaris have a bunch of different armour variants too but the template shows only the most basic one so with your logic we once again only have models and artworks as reference for those units. ;)

 

Veteran status is marked by a gold helmet, not because it's an honour marking, because it's their heraldry. That's something completely different. A honour marking is optional and only serves to boast and as a physical "well done" pat on the back. There are plenty different honour markings like that for Marines, for example the little bolter rounds on a rope as marksman honour etc. Heraldry serves to show where they fit into the chapter's organization.

Anyway I guess at this point we have to agree to disagree.

 

You base your argument on "they don't say their general heraldry applies to Terminator armour as well", which I find to be an incredibly silly argument and is basically your own headcanon in my book, and I base my argument on general heraldry applying to everything unless explicitly mentioned otherwise since that's the whole point of something being general and Terminators having red helmets because after all those years we KNOW that GW is inconsistent with their stuff and likes to stick with things often for nothing else than nostalgia reasons or because they simply don't care enough to make things right.

 

 

Neither of us will change their opinion.

fair enough regarding the heraldry vs. honour markings, but perhaps it is both? Before, there was no heraldry for veterans except the white skull and they would normally be integrated into the colour scheme of their assigned combat role.

 

Could one assume someone is a veteran based on him wearing Terminator armour? Sure, if they know that chapters customs and culture etc., however it would be confusing for people not being close to said chapter for why there's another way to identify a veteran when there's already a system (the heraldry) in place which they can learn in 2 minutes without knowing anything about that chapter's customs and culture.

Not to mention that we have fluff references of parts of Terminator armour getting repurposed for particularly big Marines where regular Power armour doesn't always fit and which aren't automatically getting promoted to being Veterans.

It's an honour to be promoted to Veteran status, but wearing the Veteran heraldry is not just an honour marking. Don't confuse those two things.

IF they know the chapter’s customs? There is no chapter that doesn’t revere its suits of Terminator armour to the point of religious zeal and handing it out to less distinguished brothers would be insane since veterans are the best choice to operate them. You wear TDA, you’re a veteran. There is no doubt about it...wearing parts of a suit of armour really doesn’t count.

 

At the end of the day it all belongs the chapter though and the chapter is what decides about things like heraldry. It's not like Marines have a life away from the chapter and their duties. :sweat:

 

That wasn’t Leonaides point and you know it. ;) His point was that there is no need to paint terminator armour in other than the chapter colours, in our case pure red, since they are not assigned to a marine that is part of the company structure. Without the structure of battle companies and combat roles, including veterans, there is no need for a gold helmet.

 

In any case, we disagree indeed.

 

Edit: damn formatting :D

Edited June 16, 2020 by SnorriSnorrison

[Panzer]

 

Could one assume someone is a veteran based on him wearing Terminator armour? Sure, if they know that chapters customs and culture etc., however it would be confusing for people not being close to said chapter for why there's another way to identify a veteran when there's already a system (the heraldry) in place which they can learn in 2 minutes without knowing anything about that chapter's customs and culture.

Not to mention that we have fluff references of parts of Terminator armour getting repurposed for particularly big Marines where regular Power armour doesn't always fit and which aren't automatically getting promoted to being Veterans.

It's an honour to be promoted to Veteran status, but wearing the Veteran heraldry is not just an honour marking. Don't confuse those two things.

IF they know the chapter’s customs? There is no chapter that doesn’t revere its suits of Terminator armour to the point of religious zeal and handing it out to less distinguished brothers would be insane since veterans are the best choice to operate them. You wear TDA, you’re a veteran. There is no doubt about it...wearing parts of a suit of armour really doesn’t count.

 

 

 

There's no chapter that you know of. GW has made it repeatedly clear that the galaxy is vast enough for all kinds of chapters to exist in. There could easily be a chapter with a culture where wearing Terminator armour is some form of punishment because it's less easy to move in etc. Weird but definitely possible.

[Arkhanist]

There is a mark for terminator veterans - the Crux Terminatus. Only the veterans who've been given this honour (usually by the chapter master) are trained in the use of tactical dreadnought armour. Each suit is a precious relic, maintained and repaired with zealous care. Not all veterans have the crux, but everyone who bears the crux (such as on the knee or belt, when wearing other armour) is a veteran, and apart from officers, a member of the 1st company. This is laid out in the Codex Astartes, and the Blood Angels are mostly a codex-compliant chapter.

 

So for the BA (and most chapters) wearing terminator armour alone means you are

a] a veteran with the crux (usually prominently displayed, to boot); and a member of the 1st company who alone wear it

or

b] a senior officer with your own insignia - and also a veteran, and a crux wearer

 

So gold helmets for terminators is superfluous, unlike say helping tell a veteran assault marine from a normal assault marine in the fog of war. All extant examples of "official" Blood Angel terminators have red helmets, so that seems fairly definitive.

 

That all said; the codex astartes also says that heraldry can and should be changed over time, to confuse the enemy or to meet a changing strategic need. Blood Angels have changed themselves over time; witness black shoulder trims, or chest eagle colour, or even the "official" colour red.

 

Guilliman himself has been tinkering with the codex to have room for Primaris, including doubling the number of potential squads per company and the whole Vanguard thing.

 

So if you think your terminators look better with gold helmets, then go for it; it's a big galaxy, with hundreds of years post-Devastation of Baal (let alone the timeframe before Primaris), and many campaigns ongoing throughout the sector. Who can gainsay your particular strike force's campaign and battle honours?

Edited June 16, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Brother Tyler]

...Blood Angels Terminators have been consistently depicted with red helmets since 2nd edition (Codex: Angels of Death)...

I was incorrect (sort of). Blood Angels Terminators have been consistently depicted with red helmets since 1st edition with the publication of the Space Hulk game and the White Dwarf Magazine issue that presented Terminators, later re-printed in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium and Index Astartes - Apocrypha. Of course, that article also showed an Ultramarines Terminator without a white helmet, the Dark Angels Terminator wore black Terminator armour, and the Space Wolves Terminator was referred to as a "Sergeant" (instead of a Wolf Guard). Still, though the depictions of Terminators for the other Chapters all changed a little later on, the Blood Angels Terminator hasn't.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Angel's Blade in the 1st Company heraldy section implies that only Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans have golden helmets - it's the closest we can get to an official GW statement on the issue. And I would say the helmet colours are meant  to ease quick in-battle identification by BA and not the outsiders.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I like red helmets. Red helmets are what’s shown in the codex and other publications, but I prefer red anyway as personal preference. There could be an argument made for gold, just go with what you feel looks cool TO YOU.