Any SM going without Librarian with wild success?

[Lukoi]

So, my Brigade has five HQ, one of which is a phobos libby (I find the model very cool btw), but in my handful of matches so far I am getting near zero use from it.

 

I should note, I play a RG successor and umbrancy is the psyker flavor on mine.

 

I have yet to need to shadowstep any of my characters into position as my chaplain, smash captain have jump packs, and tend to move together, along with whatever unit I'm trying to give a Canticle of Hate edge to their charge rolls (and the Swift & Deadly WL trait). My remaining characters are the Libby, a buffing Captain that I try to keep nested near shooters, and an Ex Tenebris equiped Lieutenant.

 

I gave the Librarian the Relic of Gathalamor to penalize enemy psykers within 18" but I've really struggled to get his penalty bubble into range until well after it's sort of less than important (the game is swinging hard one way or another), and denies are always just a dice roll. Enveloping darkness is a great spell, but with my Smash Captain already rocking Shadowmaster, I've yet to have the chance to cast it's -1HR, deny OW on anything truly relevant to the fight.

 

Is it me, am I just being too conservative with positioning it? Or could I seriously consider somewhere else to spend the points? I can drop a HQ unit here and put the points into more guns, or stabby things, but I'm also very concerned about not having some form of deny (altho it's yet to matter in any of my games frankly -- I'm either facing teams with overwhelming psyker options that I cannot put too much of a dent into anyway, or I'm facing a list similar to mine, and just not in range often enough to clutch the rolls often enough to make the denials matter).

 

I honestly feel like I'm paying 88+ points (in my case 101 for that sweet phobos model) to have a "maybe" clutch deny and the extremely rare opportunity to cast one of those utility spells.  A smite a turn is cool, but.....almost feel like a Suppressor squad would reliably do more damage round after round at this point.  What am I missing?

[Captain Idaho]

In 8th, I rarely found my Librarian crucial to my plans but the assistance he gave acted as a wild card.

 

I agree you are paying points for a model won't always do a lot, but it's a fairly small investment for the potential it grants.

 

Consider it from an opponent's perspective too - if your Librarian is close to that Dreadnought on 2 wounds, you might Smite it and kill it. If your Librarian is within 24" of his clutch power, he might find you negate it with Deny the Witch.

 

These factors are just a couple examples how you are going to influence your opponent's choices just by having the presence of a sub-100pts model.

 

Every decision your opponent has to make is another opportunity for mistakes to creep in and thanks to your own decision making you can capitalise on either way they go, even with the opponent making the "right" decision.

 

:)

[Panzer]

Competetive Blood Angels often go completely without a Librarian. Not because they are bad though. Mephiston and Librarian Dreads are great. It's mostly because they aren't reliable and other characters offer great benefits much more reliably in form of auras.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I find that my Librarians tend to draw a lot of fire at the front lines while at the same time they don't get a chance to really make their points back in the turns they survive.

 

When I have them buff backfield units however, they seem to do quite well. Sure, it's hard for them to make their points back that way, but toughing up my last Lascannon dread to have it survive for one more turn can be valuable.

It's just that a Techmarine kinda does the same thing and you don't bring a Vanguard Librarian to hang back.

 

Then again I play 1k Sons as well and those guys dish out MWs a lot more efficiently than C:SM so I might not appreciate it sufficiently when my Libby deals 4D3 MWs before getting picked off.

 

Basically I feel the same as you, he's an investment that rarely pays off.

 

For a frontline HQ, I find a Chaplain to do an admirably reasonable amount of work for his points while drawing my opponent's attention all the same.

And while they can't chant Litanies from a Transport, a Litany can't be denied once they get to chant on turn 2.

[Medjugorje]

Competetive Blood Angels often go completely without a Librarian. Not because they are bad though. Mephiston and Librarian Dreads are great. It's mostly because they aren't reliable and other characters offer great benefits much more reliably in form of auras.

I would never go without a librarian dread if I play my Blood Angels. Of course Smash Captians are better but they need so much CPs and Dreads dont need them.

[TheNewman]

I own four Librarians and I almost never use them outside of White Scars. The Stormcaller discipline is really good for them.

 

I find the other disciplines kind of lacking, usually Lieutenant/Chaplain/Techmarine/second Captain winds up being more useful.

[Marshal Reinhard]

witches...

[Medjugorje]

witches...

 

Abhor the witch, destroy the witch

 

ZEAL!!!

 

 

but honestly - White  Scars Terminator Libby is not bad I think so far. most chapters have better choices altough I didnt play often against them.

[Panzer]

 

Competetive Blood Angels often go completely without a Librarian. Not because they are bad though. Mephiston and Librarian Dreads are great. It's mostly because they aren't reliable and other characters offer great benefits much more reliably in form of auras.

I would never go without a librarian dread if I play my Blood Angels. Of course Smash Captians are better but they need so much CPs and Dreads dont need them.

 

 

I wasn't even talking about Smash Captains. Believe it or not but plenty competetive BA lists don't even include one anymore either. Stuff like Sanguinary Priests, Astorath, the Sanguinor are much much more important.

[Dracos]

Pretty much the same. I find Eliminators and careful shooting can hurt the worse of my opponents psykers first two turns usually. Add that with Libby doesn’t get an Inv Sv and there are better choices for my points.

 

caveat: I don’t build an army that depends on anyone unit or character buffs. I use them I just don’t build the list around them. Some armies need that Libby. Doesn’t sound like you do from your opening post

 

Good look see you in raven guard forum.

[tychobi]

I have never had an issue forgoing a Librarian. They are expensive fragile and unreliable. I take my mortal wounds like my whiskey. Straight up

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I also have the Phobos Librarian just for looks and also use the RG supplement. I have seen winning ITC lists use a Librarian, but they aren't common. This leads me to believe they're usable at the highest levels, which is cool, but definitely not necessary and also aren't a huge contributor to success. More important HQs that are more mandatory and appear in almost every list are Smash Captains, Chaplains with jump packs, Lias Issodon, etc.

 

If he isn't filling a required HQ slot and you are willing to drop the unit from your list despite how much you like the model, I'd go ahead and remove it and use the points elsewhere.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Lukoi]

Appreciate the feedback from everyone.

 

I did indeed drop the librarian, and went ahead and added some non-HQ flavor into the mix.  Actually very happy with the new look (on theory-paper), and hope to put it through its paces in some TTS later this week.

 

Thanks again all.