New edition and us

[A.T.]

Video with updated Imperium points values.

 

Short version appears to be a 10-20% increase on most units, with pretty much all of the infantry taking a ~20% increase and seraphim quite a bit more.

A few points to be clawed back on heavy flamers and meltaguns and those compulsory vehicle heavy bolters are the gift that keeps taking.

 

The 1700 8e sisters = 2000 9e sisters battle report from a week or so back seems to fit with these numbers, about a 15% loss in unit strength. Almost 600pts to field three exorcists, almost 200 for five sisters with two stormbolters and an immolator. Mech is getting pricey.

Now to see how that compares to the practical increase (in useful unit costs) of other factions, as the averages probably won't tell the full story.

[taikishi]

Per ERJAK over at Dakka Dakka, the army overall increased about 10% with some head scratchers like the Triumph going up in points and pre-FAQ being screwed by the new terrain rules. Competitive lists went up about 15%.

 

Biggest head scratcher to me after the Triumph is Geminae, which went from 16 to 23 ppm if they have to pay for their power swords again, or 18ppm if they don't.

[A.T.]

Per ERJAK over at Dakka Dakka, the army overall increased about 10% / Competitive lists went up about 15%.

 

With wargear costs included it's closer to the 15% mark, with a few exceptions. Core units like the sisters infantry and vehicles have taken most of the big 20%+ increases unless you are fielding small squads with heavy flamers and meltaguns, and the non-named characters are all heading up towards 15% other than the imagifier as far as I can tell.

 

The heavy flamer walkers and the named characters are coming in under 10% though the latter still cost too much, the Triumph especially with the new character rules.

[Montford]

https://youtu.be/h6bdswaxHDs

 

Video with updated Imperium points values. Sisters are first in the video and I didn't watch any further. Looks like most squads going up a couple of points per model (BSS 11pts per) and most characters going up 10pts. 

 

Looks like my usual lists won't be changing much. I will go through a few after work today and see what I see.

[A.T.]

FAQs up -

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Fc5f2EmE8Ta91Tk9.pdf

 

Not much has changed. The triumph is less of a target at least.

[ThePenitentOne]

The Sacred Rose are the bomb- automatically pass attrition tests!

 

I mean, guess it sorta works the same way it did- only one model will ever flee. But it's great to see it confirmed.

[Maschinenpriester]

I just built my first 500p list for 9th Ed based on the points leaks. It's about 18% less stuff. It was fun, and it's still possible to build functioning lists even at the 500p level I think.

 

I am not sure how I feel about seraphim been 4 points up each, but their inferno pistols got cheaper right? =D

 

In general I feel I could just continue collecting them like in 8th, as every unit still seems to have its place.

[Montford]

The Sacred Rose are the bomb- automatically pass attrition tests!

 

I mean, guess it sorta works the same way it did- only one model will ever flee. But it's great to see it confirmed.

Its better now: no one flees! "Come at me Heretic!"

[taikishi]

It's the exact same it was before. Before you just lost 1 model to morale. Now, if you lose your one and only model to a failed morale test, the rest don't flee from attrition.

 

Also, been trying to rework my Fallen + Sisters idea ever since I got home and I've yet to be satisfied with it. :(

[Slasher956]

I don't know if Reddit is frowned upon, but here is a link to a post and a Google Sheet where someone has very kindly transcribed the video;

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/sistersofbattle/comments/hqchkz/9e_points_changes/

 

Aparently calculators are too dificult... with 2 exception (hand flamers + storm bolters) all weapons & upgardes are derivatives of 5 points!

[Slasher956]

EDIT - DOUBLE POST, Sorry!

Edited July 14, 2020 by Slasher956

[A.T.]

Aparently calculators are too dificult... with 2 exception (hand flamers + storm bolters) all weapons & upgardes are derivatives of 5 points!

 

The cost of pushing through these big sweeping points changes without enough time or manpower. A small % of units get adjusted off-average for balance purposes but all of the rest are at the mercy of rounding errors and arbitrary re-costing lines.

[Lord Grimskull]

Per Chapter Master Valarak, there's a spreadsheet with the points changes and %. (link to the spreadsheet in the doobily doo)

 

 

What I find interesting is Melta doms actually went down in overall price after the change.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lord Grimskull

[A.T.]

Rounding so many values off to 5 has thrown any illusion of rebalancing out of the window with the majority of units in the game. A few are clearly being tweaked over and above but the bulk of the new edition looks like it has been run through a simplistic excel script... I guess it gives GW something to sell with their next chapter approved.

[Slasher956]

it migh actually also be bringing the points directly in line with power level... I mean even the units that are odd points individually when you take 5 of them they (sisters and craftworld...not looked at any others) end up being a 5 point derivative unit...

 

so this makes list building a lot easier (dumbed down?) maybe in the next edition points will be gone and only power level remains

[ValourousHeart]

so this makes list building a lot easier (dumbed down?) 

 

Why is having points being multiples of 5 "dumbed down"?  Making the point system more regular means that option trading will now factor in.  No longer will you be limited to only a single option because the other options are 1-2 points out of sync with your army. 

 

The choice to exchange 1 piece of wargear should not require redrafting my entire 2000 army list to account for the 1 point difference of this item over that item.

Edited July 16, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[A.T.]

Why is having points being multiples of 5 "dumbed down"?

 

Because most of these things are not currently equal in value.

[Maschinenpriester]

 

 

so this makes list building a lot easier (dumbed down?)

Why is having points being multiples of 5 "dumbed down"? Making the point system more regular means that option trading will now factor in. No longer will you be limited to only a single option because the other options are 1-2 points out of sync with your army.

 

The choice to exchange 1 piece of wargear should not require redrafting my entire 2000 army list to account for the 1 point difference of this item over that item.

The problem in my opinion is not that it's "dumbed down". The problem is what is the point in increased granularity if everything is just multiples of 5? Then you could have 400 points games instead of 2000 and a plasma gun costs 2 points while a condemnor costs 1 and so on. It might be good to do math in the head but balancing needs a bigger resolution points wise.

[ValourousHeart]

Because most of these things are not currently equal in value.

 

The problem in my opinion is not that it's "dumbed down". The problem is what is the point in increased granularity if everything is just multiples of 5? Then you could have 400 points games instead of 2000 and a plasma gun costs 2 points while a condemnor costs 1 and so on. It might be good to do math in the head but balancing needs a bigger resolution points wise.

 

My point is that in CA 2019 a power sword and a power maul are 4 points, but a power axe is 5 points.

Do you really think that in a 2000 point game that 1 point difference is really that earth shattering?

 

IMO, at 2000 points the choice of which power weapon your squad leader has is 100% irrelevant.

In smaller games that 1 point may have more impact than it does in larger games, but even at 400 points that 1 point impact is still 95% irrelevant.

 

And that is just comparing marine to marine, it is even more ridiculous when comparing marine to IG.

A marine power fist is 9 points and an IG power fist is 8 points.

So the 1 point barrier that distinguishes a marine power axe and a marine power sword is the same 1 point barrier that distinguishes a marine power fist from an IG power fist?

[A.T.]

Do you really think that in a 2000 point game that 1 point difference is really that earth shattering?

One point, no.

But you are going to take more than one piece of wargear at 2000pts.

 

That aside I just find it lazy when you have two items of inequal value that are scored equally because your game balace pass consists of =IF(x>5,INT(x*0.15),5)

[Maschinenpriester]

 

Do you really think that in a 2000 point game that 1 point difference is really that earth shattering?

Maybe not 1 point. Sisters can't take so may powers words to name an example. Zeraphym maybe? But in armies like csm with terminators and chosen this could sum up fast.

and to name an option for bss: condemnor bolter. If you have some of them spread out it can sum up fast. And then you can add other items that maybe got rounded up.

[taikishi]

Definitely not a list I advise for a more competitive environment. I'm not even sure this list is "good", and would love some feed back, but I slapped this together earlier today for an idea I had:

 

Celestine, Stern, and a force of Sisters leading Cypher and the Fallen to Holy Terra for forgiveness/repentance. If this were an 8e list, I'd squeeze in a battalion of Dark Angels for counts-as Fallen.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oMKiygt4IXMuinH6hcWrx5OrQhqx2OAAbuyTJGK2JGs/edit

 

If you're wondering about the legality, Unexpected Allies states Stern and Kyganil can be taken without using a detachment slot as long as every unit in your army is Imperium (and not Fallen). There's nothing prohibiting them from being taken in an army with Fallen, I just have to use a detachment slot to do so. Meanwhile, Agents of the Imperium just prohibits including Inquisitors in battalion, brigade, or patrol detachments that include Fallen. Also, since Stern and Kyganil don't have the Agents of the Imperium rules, both they and an Inquisitor can be included in the same detachment.

Edited July 17, 2020 by taikishi

[ValourousHeart]

One point, no.

But you are going to take more than one piece of wargear at 2000pts.

 

That aside I just find it lazy when you have two items of inequal value that are scored equally because your game balace pass consists of =IF(x>5,INT(x*0.15),5)

 

One isn't enough?  How about 10?  10 power swords are 40 points.  10 power axes are 50 points.  10 points is the cost of 2 plasma pistols.

 

2 identical units facing each other.

The first armed with 10 power swords, 2 plasma pistols and 8 bolt pistols.

The second armed with 10 power axes and 10 bolt pistols.

Do you think that is equal or do you think that the axe squad needs something to make up for the increased firepower that the 2 plasma pistols bring?

 

Maybe not 1 point. Sisters can't take so may powers words to name an example. Zeraphym maybe? But in armies like csm with terminators and chosen this could sum up fast.

and to name an option for bss: condemnor bolter. If you have some of them spread out it can sum up fast. And then you can add other items that maybe got rounded up.

 

All you need is a battalion worth of units with the squad leaders taking an upgrade weapon to get to 10 power weapons pretty quickly.

 

I believe that people have a misguided faith in the accuracy of points.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm just glad plasma pistols no longer always cost 15 pts just because they've always costed 15 pts.

[A.T.]

2 identical units facing each other.

The first armed with 10 power swords, 2 plasma pistols and 8 bolt pistols.

The second armed with 10 power axes and 10 bolt pistols.

Do you think that is equal or do you think that the axe squad needs something to make up for the increased firepower that the 2 plasma pistols bring?

 

That is a setup with slight point differences, and if done properly* the squad with axes would be notably better or more broadly applicable in close combat while the plasma squad trades the raw melee power for firepower.

 

Under the rounded cost system neither squad has pistols, one is just arbitrarily better at close combat.

 

 

*Obvious it doesn't matter how small or large your prices differences are if you've made a hash of them in the first place.