New edition and us

[Progenitor]

Maybe they're just trying to push everyone down the Power Levels route where wargear options are irrelevant, you just take the unit in sizes you want with the wargear you want and granularity is ignored because you paid for the Power level instead? 

[taikishi]

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if that were their intentions.

[A.T.]

If that is where they want to go then they need to start changing the weapons themselves, moving away from their fixation on old statlines.

 

Power level currently works on the principle that a stormbolter and a multimelta are of equal value.

[ValourousHeart]

Maybe they're just trying to push everyone down the Power Levels route where wargear options are irrelevant, you just take the unit in sizes you want with the wargear you want and granularity is ignored because you paid for the Power level instead? 

 

It isn't that granularity is ignored, it is just that you are not blind to the fact that points aren't that accurate either.

 

We could add 10 or 12 decimal places to the points system to better distinguish between a 0 point bolter in the hands of a SM Captain and a 0 point lasgun in the hands of a regular guardsman, but there is still a better chance that we won't even get that point balance correct.  And what would adding all of those decimal places really accomplish?  Would you still take the bolter on that SM Captain?  If that is what you wanted to field him with then it wouldn't matter how granular the system was.

 

Think of it like lights in your house, some lights have an on off switch, others have a dimmer switch.  The dimmer switch in this example is points because it granular.  The normal light switch is power ratings.  Sure you can fidget with the dimmer switch more.  But when you want the lights on or off, the dimmer switch doesn't make the lights more on or more off than the normal switch.

[Montford]

It hit me that Argent Shroud Exorcists and Immolators with Multi Meltas can advance and shoot without any penalty on the to-hit roll in the new Edition. That's going to really surprise an opponent the first time it happens to them ;) With the new battlefield sizes an MM Immolator (or several) can definitely get within 12" and hammer something expensive turn 1.

[Lemondish]

It hit me that Argent Shroud Exorcists and Immolators with Multi Meltas can advance and shoot without any penalty on the to-hit roll in the new Edition. That's going to really surprise an opponent the first time it happens to them With the new battlefield sizes an MM Immolator (or several) can definitely get within 12" and hammer something expensive turn 1.

 

Certainly can - but is it worth 145 points for two melta shots on a T7 10W platform? It could be a fun unit, as Immolators always are, but I'm not thinking they're particularly capable.  

 

For all the things I love about Sororitas, the decisions made surrounding the Immolator make me so sad. (I also wish they'd fix Celestine/Geminae, and the Celestian bodyguard exclusivity). 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Lemondish

[EmperorGTank]

I still love my immolators and do have an old MM one from 7th, BUT I have 3 with the flamers, including the one new plastic kit where I've left the weapons unglued in the turret so I can change out if need be. In general they are just the one unit in the army right now that I think make sense with flamers. Unless you are going all in on EC Rets with Heavy Flamers for the stratagem or putting a combi flamer on a Dominion/Ret squad to use HT, i feel like our infantry just doesn't need flamers or even the odd melta now that OW is a stratagem.

 

As for Celestine/Geminae/Celestians, I hope our 9th codex (2022 maybe?) does something with them. Personally I hope Geminae stay cheap since they have gone down to 18 with gear now so yay, and Celestine I REALLY hope gets a Thraka or Szeras treatment ruleswise. Give her rerolls against something please, even just characters or chaos or daemons or whatever!

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

Maybe they're just trying to push everyone down the Power Levels route where wargear options are irrelevant, you just take the unit in sizes you want with the wargear you want and granularity is ignored because you paid for the Power level instead? 

 

It isn't that granularity is ignored, it is just that you are not blind to the fact that points aren't that accurate either.

 

We could add 10 or 12 decimal places to the points system to better distinguish between a 0 point bolter in the hands of a SM Captain and a 0 point lasgun in the hands of a regular guardsman, but there is still a better chance that we won't even get that point balance correct.  And what would adding all of those decimal places really accomplish?  Would you still take the bolter on that SM Captain?  If that is what you wanted to field him with then it wouldn't matter how granular the system was.

 

Think of it like lights in your house, some lights have an on off switch, others have a dimmer switch.  The dimmer switch in this example is points because it granular.  The normal light switch is power ratings.  Sure you can fidget with the dimmer switch more.  But when you want the lights on or off, the dimmer switch doesn't make the lights more on or more off than the normal switch.

 

 

There's not nearly as big a difference between PL and points as some make it out to be.

It's just that PL doesn't improve anything.

 

I'd applaud a system that moves away from points while creating rather balanced gmes.

But taking the average of those flawed point values and pitting a Marine with a Boltgun against one with a Plasma Cannon and calling it even odds? That's not quite that system yet.

So PL is inherently flawed because it's based off of a flawed system.

 

That's why points are generally your best bet if you want a fighting chance - it might be far from perfect, but at least there's a difference between a barebones squad and one toting 4 Plasma Cannons on your roster...

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Maybe they're just trying to push everyone down the Power Levels route where wargear options are irrelevant, you just take the unit in sizes you want with the wargear you want and granularity is ignored because you paid for the Power level instead? 

 

It isn't that granularity is ignored, it is just that you are not blind to the fact that points aren't that accurate either.

 

We could add 10 or 12 decimal places to the points system to better distinguish between a 0 point bolter in the hands of a SM Captain and a 0 point lasgun in the hands of a regular guardsman, but there is still a better chance that we won't even get that point balance correct.  And what would adding all of those decimal places really accomplish?  Would you still take the bolter on that SM Captain?  If that is what you wanted to field him with then it wouldn't matter how granular the system was.

 

Think of it like lights in your house, some lights have an on off switch, others have a dimmer switch.  The dimmer switch in this example is points because it granular.  The normal light switch is power ratings.  Sure you can fidget with the dimmer switch more.  But when you want the lights on or off, the dimmer switch doesn't make the lights more on or more off than the normal switch.

 

 

There's not nearly as big a difference between PL and points as some make it out to be.

It's just that PL doesn't improve anything.

 

I'd applaud a system that moves away from points while creating rather balanced gmes.

But taking the average of those flawed point values and pitting a Marine with a Boltgun against one with a Plasma Cannon and calling it even odds? That's not quite that system yet.

So PL is inherently flawed because it's based off of a flawed system.

 

That's why points are generally your best bet if you want a fighting chance - it might be far from perfect, but at least there's a difference between a barebones squad and one toting 4 Plasma Cannons on your roster...

 

If points are really as infallible as you claim then why do we have CA released every year with new points for everything?

 

I don't know how you play games in your part of the world, but in Denton, TX we play with armies of models.  I want to give you the best chance to win this argument, but you are never going to have a strong argument if you focus on the gun.  Both a Bolt Rifle and a Lasgun are zero points.  The bolt rifle has +6 inch range and better AP.  Surely that has to have more value then the lasgun, that is not accounted for simply by the stat line of the model carrying the gun.

 

We aren't playing 30k, where every unit has the same stat line because they are all marines.  We are playing 40k, where we have lots of stat lines which affect the weapons they are carrying.  So before you tackle the difference between a plasma cannon and a bolter, just try to balance a bolt rifle with a lasgun.  They are both zero points so it should be super easy.  At least one is clearly not zero points, perhaps they are both not zero either.

 

Or you can approach it from the other end of the problem.  Take your favorite list and put it on one side of the table.  Then have your friend who can never beat your army start putting units on the table, and stop some where between you not being sure if you can win any more and your friend not being sure if they can lose.  Play 30 games with the same lists, where you win 1/3, lose 1/3 and draw 1/3.  If you don't hit that ratio, add or subtract units from your opponents list, leave your list alone.  And play another 30 games with the same lists and adjust again.  Once you finally reach that 1/3 ratio that is likely the point where you have equivalent forces.  At that time you can tally up the points of both sides, and I guarantee it will be an eye opening experience for you about how inaccurate points are.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

 

 

[...]

 

[...]

 

There's not nearly as big a difference between PL and points as some make it out to be.

It's just that PL doesn't improve anything.

 

I'd applaud a system that moves away from points while creating rather balanced gmes.

But taking the average of those flawed point values and pitting a Marine with a Boltgun against one with a Plasma Cannon and calling it even odds? That's not quite that system yet.

So PL is inherently flawed because it's based off of a flawed system.

 

That's why points are generally your best bet if you want a fighting chance - it might be far from perfect, but at least there's a difference between a barebones squad and one toting 4 Plasma Cannons on your roster...

 

If points are really as infallible as you claim then why do we have CA released every year with new points for everything?

 

I don't know how you play games in your part of the world, but in Denton, TX we play with armies of models.  I want to give you the best chance to win this argument, but you are never going to have a strong argument if you focus on the gun.  Both a Bolt Rifle and a Lasgun are zero points.  The bolt rifle has +6 inch range and better AP.  Surely that has to have more value then the lasgun, that is not accounted for simply by the stat line of the model carrying the gun.

 

We aren't playing 30k, where every unit has the same stat line because they are all marines.  We are playing 40k, where we have lots of stat lines which affect the weapons they are carrying.  So before you tackle the difference between a plasma cannon and a bolter, just try to balance a bolt rifle with a lasgun.  They are both zero points so it should be super easy.  At least one is clearly not zero points, perhaps they are both not zero either.

 

Or you can approach it from the other end of the problem.  Take your favorite list and put it on one side of the table.  Then have your friend who can never beat your army start putting units on the table, and stop some where between you not being sure if you can win any more and your friend not being sure if they can lose.  Play 30 games with the same lists, where you win 1/3, lose 1/3 and draw 1/3.  If you don't hit that ratio, add or subtract units from your opponents list, leave your list alone.  And play another 30 games with the same lists and adjust again.  Once you finally reach that 1/3 ratio that is likely the point where you have equivalent forces.  At that time you can tally up the points of both sides, and I guarantee it will be an eye opening experience for you about how inaccurate points are.

 

Erm... alright...

Let me just quote a few lines from my post to you. I'm even gonna make a few points bold so they're more obvious.

Also maybe don't zone out after the first 2 lines again, alright?

 

-There's not nearly as big a difference between PL and points as some make it out to be.

-taking the average of those flawed point values

-Points [...] might be far from perfect

 

So if you could tell me where in God's name I claimed that points were infallible, that would be great.

Otherwise, rt darn p so you realize that I'm not actually saying points are anything but a broken system and that you're preaching to the choir

 

Now I'd just like to try and make my actual point again.

Let me just say in advance that I'm not saying points are infallible.

-PL is the average of the cheapest and the most expensive loadout of a unit, determined by points and ignoring any loadout in between.

-PL is thus less extreme, but still a product of nothing but the points system.

-PL is still affected by overcosted and undercosted gear.

-PL doesn't adequately represent the strength of the actual loadout.

 

-> Points give you a better indication of a unit being armed to the teeth or being cannon fodder.

-> PL is NOT an alternative to points coming from a cpmpletely different place than points but an indicator of the average point cost of the unit and as a product of points, it suffers from the same drawbacks and weaknesses.

 

But sure, across an army, PL will probably balance itself out better than the red hot mess points are.

They're just a more reliable indicator when looking at single units.

 

Again, points aren't infallible.

Just to make sure

Oh, and since I merely posited an opinion about PL, seemingly failed to make my point and never set out to pick an argument or win it, please, feel free to not give me a chance of winning the argument as you so graciously offered and take the win for yourself. If those are the lines you think along in 'your part of the world', you clearly need it more than me.

Edited July 31, 2020 by HighMarshalAmp

[General Tullius]

PL or points aside, The lists I've seen featuring Sisters largely focussed on Melee and killing potential.

9th seems to have shifted the balance. You think an army saturated with Bolters and Heavy Bolters might still have killing potential while having staying power as well?

 

Actually, let me add:

@ValorousHeart

'I don't know how you play games in your part of the world, but in Denton, TX we play with armies of models.'

'We aren't playing 30k

We are playing 40k'

Wow. Just... dude...

[HighMarshalAmp]

PL or points aside, The lists I've seen featuring Sisters largely focussed on Melee and killing potential.

9th seems to have shifted the balance. You think an army saturated with Bolters and Heavy Bolters might still have killing potential while having staying power as well?

 

Actually, let me add:

@ValorousHeart

'I don't know how you play games in your part of the world, but in Denton, TX we play with armies of models.'

'We aren't playing 30k

We are playing 40k'

Wow. Just... dude...

The Order of the Valorous Heart (that‘s a recurring theme today, innit) have a CT that buffs everything. 10 of them are a chore to shift compared to what they actually are - T3 1W models.

I like Bolter spam well enough and with SoB you easily get 100 shots a turn.

That number can decrease drastically though. Not even VH can withstand a similar list long enough to score.

What’s your plan for secondaries?

[General Tullius]

 

The Order of the Valorous Heart (that‘s a recurring theme today, innit) have a CT that buffs everything. 10 of them are a chore to shift compared to what they actually are - T3 1W models.

I like Bolter spam well enough and with SoB you easily get 100 shots a turn.

That number can decrease drastically though. Not even VH can withstand a similar list long enough to score.

What’s your plan for secondaries?

 

I'm not playing Ssters (yet?), just trying to get a feel if I could run them without models I dislike, which is every melee unit except for Zephyrim, unfortunately.

Gut feeling about Secondaries? With many models, some Dominions and little to no way to target enemy Characters, I'd try Banners, While we stand, we fight and Engage on all fronts.

Order of the Valorous Heart, you say. 6+ FNP is nice, but flooding the board with Argent Shroud advancing while firing... would that be worth 2CP for another detachment while VH hold the objectives under my control?

[toaae]

=][=

Folks, lets keep the conversation here on the Adeptas Sororitas. General discussions contrasting and comparing the merits of points and power level are much more appropriate in the Amicus Aedes.

 

Thank you.

 

=][=

[ValourousHeart]

 

-> Points give you a better indication of a unit being armed to the teeth or being cannon fodder.

 

Oh, and since I merely posited an opinion about PL, seemingly failed to make my point and never set out to pick an argument or win it, please, feel free to not give me a chance of winning the argument as you so graciously offered and take the win for yourself. If those are the lines you think along in 'your part of the world', you clearly need it more than me.

 

I did read you whole post, however I just picked it apart at the weakest point.

 

This excerpt from your most recent post indicates what I believe is your root feeling about points.  That a Multi-melta for 20 points is twice as valuable as a Heavy Bolter for 10 points.

 

I disagree with that believe, because it takes no account of the opponent you are facing.  When facing a hoard of Orks, a multi-melta is all but useless.  Sure, you will really kill one Ork dead, but what good is that with 29 more in that one squad, or all of the other boots that they have.  Now I am not suggesting we have weapons costed differently for different opponents, in addition to costed differently depending upon who is holding the weapon.  But the points should reflect the overall utility of the weapon, and this is where I think that points fail the most.

 

With power level I feel that both players will keep generally the same units, but optimize the upgrades that give them the best chance vs that opponent codex.  Or trade out utility blocks that are more tailored to the current opponent codex.  Is that system without flaws?  No of course not.  But I also don't believe that the sides should be balanced either.

 

Custer was not facing an equal point cost force in the Lakota.  Leonidas's 300 were not perfectly balanced with Xerxes's forces at Thermopylae.  Why should 40k deviate from that rich history of war?

 

The last part of my previous post wasn't just a thought experiment.  I think player should forget points and power, and just put enough models on the table that the game looks like it will be fun.  From that perspective I believe that PL is the better choice because it already encourages players to fiddle with the points less, and just put models on the board and play.

 

However I will let you know that I incorporate both limits (points and power level) when drafting a list.  It isn't as easy as you might think especially when GW changes points as much as they do without adjusting power levels.  But it allows me the option of playing the same list no matter which system my opponent wants to use.  It tends to mean that I build a single list and try to account for any opponent, and then stick with that list for a while.

 

*EDIT*  Sorry Toaae, I didn't see your post until after I posted this.

Edited July 31, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[HighMarshalAmp]

I'm not playing Sisters (yet?), just trying to get a feel if I could run them without models I dislike, which is every melee unit except for Zephyrim, unfortunately.

 

Gut feeling about Secondaries? With many models, some Dominions and little to no way to target enemy Characters, I'd try Banners, While we stand, we fight and Engage on all fronts.

Order of the Valorous Heart, you say. 6+ FNP is nice, but flooding the board with Argent Shroud advancing while firing... would that be worth 2CP for another detachment while VH hold the objectives under my control?

You always could do that, but I feel you'd be splitting your forces and denying one half the benefits of Imagifiers et al from the other to gain an average 3.5" of movement.

What would you give these squads to make the most of these 3.5"?

Also, do you know if you can even RtB after advancing?

I lean towards Wwswf and Eoaf as well. No idea about the thrid one. RtB seems like too much of a hassle. You'd need to take control of the board early and then keep it while missing out on shots or going full MSU for your vanguard. With Dominions, going MSU would mean forgoing 15 models. And 3.5" don't really make up for that, I guess.

[taikishi]

If nothing else, Bloody Rose is off to a good start. First GT of 9th was won by a Bloody Rose list with an IH successors vanguard + a battle sanctum Edited July 31, 2020 by taikishi

[HighMarshalAmp]

If nothing else, Bloody Rose is off to a good start. First GT of 9th was won by a Bloody Rose list with an IH successors vanguard + a battle sanctum

Would you happen to have the list at hand?

Still, I remember some Mono-SoB lists from 8th. I'd really love to see one of those win.

[taikishi]

Bloody Rose Battalion

Canoness w/ chainsword, bolt pistol, Beacon of Faith, Litanies of Faith (Warlord)

Missionary with bolt pistol, shotgun

 

5 Battle Sisters, Superior w/ chainsword

5 Battle Sisters, Superior w/ chainsword

5 Battle Sisters, Superior w/ chainsword

 

9 Repentia

9 Repentia

9 Repentia

 

5 Seraphim w/ 4 inferno pistols

 

Sororitas Rhino

Sororitas Rhino

 

 

Fortification Network

Battle Sanctum

 

 

Imperial Fists successor Vanguard

-Master Artisans and Stealthy successor tactics

 

Techmarine w/ power axe, storm bolter, Hero of the Chapter: Hand of Dorn warlord trait (+d3 CP before game starts)

 

3 Bladeguard Veterans

4 Servitors

4 Servitors

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought w/ twin lascannon, dreadnought melee weapon, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought w/ twin lascannon, dreadnought melee weapon, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought w/ twin lascannon, dreadnought melee weapon, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher

 

3 Eradicators

3 Eradicators

 

Second was a Custodes list, third Death Guard

Edited July 31, 2020 by taikishi

[Montford]

I had my first game in 9th last weekend. Took my Sacred Rose up against Adeptus Custodes, 2,000 point battle. I won by 20 points without accounting for painting. Sisters are pretty good! The Custodes are very resilient and they have very good gear but their low model count can be their Achillles heel. I burned through my CP pool in the first two turns but it was worth it to cut him down a few squads.

 

I find the new emphasis on Objectives to be an improvement. On turn 2 I was able to pull ahead of him on Primary Objective points and kept my focus on those and Secondaries. I kept whittling him down with all my Heavy Support (3 Exorcists and 2 Retributor Squads)  while the rest pushed on opposite board ends to grab objectives as well as secondaries.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Montford

[A.T.]

I find the new emphasis on Objectives to be an improvement. On turn 2 I was able to pull ahead of him on Primary Objective points and kept my focus on those and Secondaries. I kept whittling him down with all my Heavy Support (3 Exorcists and 2 Retributor Squads)  while the rest pushed on opposite board ends to grab objectives as well as secondaries.

 

I've heard that elite armies like custodes can be difficult to score secondaries against if they build for it. One concern i've had about 9th since seeing the rules is a bit of the old 5e victory point situation setting in where units are chosen heavy based on whether they are going to give up secondaries.

 

How have you found the secondary scoring both against the sisters and against the opposition?

[Lemondish]

So with all these wonderful 9th edition data sheet leaks hitting for Space Marines, we have a bit of insight in what a potential update to shared weapon profiles might be. 

 

So far, we've seen rumours and indication that...

• Heavy Bolters go to 2 Damage (from the leaked Invictor datasheet - while it suggests it drops to 1 shot, playtesters have been sharing that this is a typo and that it is still 3)
• Heavy Flamers go to 12'' base (from the leaked Terminator data sheet)
• Power Swords gain +1 Str (from the leaked Terminator data sheet)
• Multi-Melta gains a second shot and a new special melta rule of half range improves damage to D6+2 (from the leaked Invader ATV sheet)

If any of this proves to be new weapon profiles, then it starts to make a lot of sense regarding points changes and updates, etc. for 9th Edition. Units like Retributors start to look really tasty with those weapon buffs, something that might make them feel much more valuable for their points costs. Likewise, Zephyrim would start to look particularly tasty for everybody, not just BR, if they swung at Str 4 with those full rerolls. 

 

This of course all assumes two major points...1) that these leaks are actual indications of future weapon profiles and 2) that these weapon profiles will eventually be extended to everybody who uses said weapons.  

[toaae]

I think it's very likely that the weapons that are common to the Imperium will all get updated in due time. The real question, though, is how long? Does it get FAQ'd? Or do we have to wait for another codex, which might take 15 years? j/k, but seriously, it can't be withing the next 18 months.

[taikishi]

If these profiles pass to other units, Argent Shroud and Ebon Chalice Retributors will be especially tasty. The former will have a 23-28" threat range due to the additional 4" of range Retributors get combined with the ability to advance and fire as if they hadn't advanced. The latter can only be charged by most units from outside LoS - a 16" range means they're always in range to overwatch, while the charging units risk taking 24 S5 AP-1 hits (admittedly for 3CP) in doing so.

[Montford]

 

I find the new emphasis on Objectives to be an improvement. On turn 2 I was able to pull ahead of him on Primary Objective points and kept my focus on those and Secondaries. I kept whittling him down with all my Heavy Support (3 Exorcists and 2 Retributor Squads)  while the rest pushed on opposite board ends to grab objectives as well as secondaries.

 

I've heard that elite armies like custodes can be difficult to score secondaries against if they build for it. One concern i've had about 9th since seeing the rules is a bit of the old 5e victory point situation setting in where units are chosen heavy based on whether they are going to give up secondaries.

 

How have you found the secondary scoring both against the sisters and against the opposition?

 

I took the following Secondaries:

 

Raze

Raise the Banners High

Engage on All Fronts

 

I never executed the first one but I realized it is useful because after you fill out your Primaries you can still use an Objective to score a good amount of points

 

I managed to raise two banners (I forgot to do that for a turn and so would have scored it once more than I did)

 

Engage of All Fronts was the easiest for me to score. I ran up both side of the board and got 3 quarters and then managed 4 quarters the remainder of the game.

 

 

I did not write down what the Custodes player's secondaries were, however I know he had Raise the banners (did that twice) and he took Slay the Warlord; I cannot recall what his 3rd Secondary was, but he never scored it not Slay the Warlord (Celestine).

 

 

I really like the concept of Secondary Objectives as I can tailor them to the situation.

 

I also did something I don't think I did aside from a few initial games way back at the beginning of 8th: I took a pair of Immolators armed with Multi-Meltas. They did well against those large obnoxious bikes ;)  The rule that vehicle mounted heavy weapons do not suffer a shooting penalty for a normal move is what prompted me to field them armed with Multi-Meltas. My Exorcists were a lot more mobile now than they have ever been previously. My opponent has faced my Sisters often and I know that rolling Exorcists were definitely a new experience for him.