New edition and us

[ThePenitentOne]

Found a little time.

 

A unit of 4 Mortifiers all with heavy bolters have a 64% chance of dealing between 2.25 and 8.38 unsaved damage to T6-T9 vehicles with a 3+ save.

 

Four Mortifiers are 240 points. A single Rhino is 78. The average 51% of the time you'll bracket a Rhino with 24 heavy bolter shots. ~27% of the time you'll cripple the Rhino. 12.3 of the time you'll destroy it.

 

240 points have a 1/8 chance of destroy a unit 1/3 its cost.

 

If you're going to for heavy bolters at a transport, it should be Raiders. Even then, a unit of 3 Mortifiers only have a 30% chance of popping a Raider while a full unit pops a single Raider 58% of the time

 

I very much appreciate the math hammer. But like all math hammer, it's subject to isolation from real gaming experiences.

 

For example, if the rhino's explosion kills a few of its passengers, then that changes the cost/benefit analysis significantly. 

 

Similarly, miracle dice mess up math hammer every time. Armourium cherubs and strats, and of course simulacra to maximize MD also play a huge role.

 

And finally, the comparison of unit to unit is in itself an abstraction since that's not how the game is actually played. If the vehicle in question has already been damaged by another unit, or if it can subsequently be damaged by another unit, the HB upgrade has an impact by getting it dead faster.

 

Again, none of this is to dis on math hammer; I do appreciate it, and it's not a bad benchmark. Just saying it doesn't always tell the whole story.

[toaae]

Heavy Bolters will be good to finish off wounded vehicles/monsters. Or, at least, they won't be as bad at it as they are now.

But just being able to one-shot marines, and two-shot gravis, makes them an interesting proposition. Anything else they do just seems like a bonus.

[Atrus]

They're a nice little extra thing to be able to chip away at Necrons quantum shielding. Another source of D2. Not ideally suited, but every little bit helps I guess.

[Banjulhu]

So the Heavy Bolter is mostly a minor upgrade that feels like a bigger buff than it is.
Flamers getting some extra range makes sense in a world where overwatch is far more limited

2 Shot mult-meltas actually make the historically bad weapon extremely valuable now when hunting big beefy monsters and vehicles.

Honestly I think the only Sisters about to lose a step in a marine dominant 9th are the Bloody Rose because there is not a lot of melee options that do more than 1 damage. Then again that is looking to be a problem for every army with any sort of melee focus.

[Banjulhu]

So with GW showing willingness to actually change up long standing design conventions I had a bit of a "Hey that could work moment".

Let's say that is updating of profiles does go beyond marines, we could be in for a future where maybe Celestians get a 2nd wound and in an instant get an identity and a purpose beyond being little more than a battle sister that takes up a slot in an already over crowded elite section.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Banjulhu

[Lemondish]

So the Heavy Bolter is mostly a minor upgrade that feels like a bigger buff than it is.

Flamers getting some extra range makes sense in a world where overwatch is far more limited

2 Shot mult-meltas actually make the historically bad weapon extremely valuable now when hunting big beefy monsters and vehicles.

 

Honestly I think the only Sisters about to lose a step in a marine dominant 9th are the Bloody Rose because there is not a lot of melee options that do more than 1 damage. Then again that is looking to be a problem for every army with any sort of melee focus.

Honestly, I'm not sure how many Sisters players will be affected. The Codex Marines I've seen on the table, and indeed that have been winning competitively, were already nearly entirely 2 wound lists anyway. The shape and unit name of the thing my Repentia murder may change now, but they were always fighting against 2 wound units, and they were doing a pretty good job of it already.

 

As for Celestians, they already make up such a huge part of my Bloody Rose army at its core that I would be absolutely ecstatic if they jumped up 2W. They're already a phenomenal choice for me - 1ppm more than a BSS but with super easy access to full hit rerolls and an extra attack at 3+ WS. 2W would turn them from the hidden gem to the absolute star of the list.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Lemondish

[ThePenitentOne]

So the Heavy Bolter is mostly a minor upgrade that feels like a bigger buff than it is.

Flamers getting some extra range makes sense in a world where overwatch is far more limited

2 Shot mult-meltas actually make the historically bad weapon extremely valuable now when hunting big beefy monsters and vehicles.

 

Honestly I think the only Sisters about to lose a step in a marine dominant 9th are the Bloody Rose because there is not a lot of melee options that do more than 1 damage. Then again that is looking to be a problem for every army with any sort of melee focus.

 

Gotta disagree on the HB. First, consider that it's an upgrade to one of only 2 weapons in our army that have a range greater than 24". Because we only have 2 weapons with that range, any upgrade to either of them is bigger than it is for other armies. 

 

Now I only play Crusade, but I'm aware that your comment is probably referring to regular ole' matched play, so I'll break this down for you twice. First, I'll show you that it's great in regular ole' matched play. And then I will show how to grind heretics beneath the Holy Boots of the Emprah in Crusade.

 

Matched:

 

In a 2k army, I'm packing a Battle Sanctum and my WL trait is Beacon of Faith; and she's packing Litanies of Faith; don't worry about opportunity cost if you think Litanies is a bit of a waste- it only costs 1 cp to Open the Reliquaries. So I'm starting with 3 MD, and I'm likely to get 3 MD for at least 2 turns. I can ensure this by hiding my Cannoness behind the Sanctum since I would definitely use Heroine in the Making to give a virtual WL trait to a second cannoness to mitigate the opportunity cost of my faith battery. Are you feelin me yet? Cause we're just getting started.

 

My 9 sister Retributor squad (ablative wounds for the 4 HB) have 2 armorium cherubs and a simulacra, and our sacred rite is divine guidance. Excited yet? Did I mention that there's a Dialogus within 6" but also behind some sort of terrain (preferably Obscuring) and with an MSU BSS for character protection?

 

Wait for it...

 

Now who doesn't bring the Triumph to a 2k point game?

 

Here we go:

 

I roll my 3 MD. I'm actually rolling 3 dice right now, just to make this real: 5, 3, 2. I rerolled the 2 with the litanies and came up with a 3.

 

So we fire: let's not worry about the bolter girls. Drop 1 cp for Storm of retribution. First HB girl burns the 5, which the dialogus makes a six. Auto hit. Now Faith and Fury is expensive, but with a 6, it guarantees the wound no matter how tough you are and confers the +1AP from Divine Guidance, so burn it to avoid wasting the divine guidance shot. Even with DG, I acknowledge they might save. But we're Sacred Rose, so I'm going to roll right now to see if I get it back: nope, rolled a one. Now my two remaining MD's still become 4's when I use them from either the Triumph or the Dialogus, and that goes up to a 5 because of Storm, so if a 5 will hit, I'll use the simulacrum for a second MD- not because I need to, but because I'd rather fish for a higher MD with Sacred Rose recovery than sit on a 3. Roll to get it back- got it this time, but it's only a 2. Use the Triumph for my 3rd and final AoF. Didn't get it back. Okay, so that's one HB done. Three guaranteed hits, one guaranteed wound with +1 AP on top. It's cost 3 cp (not including the 2 pregame for Heroine and Reliquaries).

 

Now it gets faster: speed roll the other 3 HB. Now dude, you don't have to believe me but these were my unmodified 9 dice: 6,6,6,6,5,3,2,2,1. I acknowledge that this was an unusually high roll. Unless I've got modifiers, that's 8 hits because of Storm. Let's see how many of those wound: 5,5,5,5,3,3,2,1. So unless target is s10, that's up to 8 more damage, though no bonus to AP. So yeah, not hard saves: 50/50 for MEQ.

 

Think we're done? Nope. Remember those armourium cherubs? That's 6 more shots while we've got Storm: 6,5,3,3,1,1. The ones miss, but with storm, the 3s become 4, which hits even if I'm firing at -1. I got 6,5,4,1. So that's another guaranteed wound with +1AP, another wound against up to T9, and another against up to T5. And they're done.

 

So the summary even at T9, you've got to make 7 saves- two at -2, and 5 at -1. Every failure is 2 wounds. Just rolled 3,1 for the -2's: eat 4 wounds. Just rolled 6,5,4,2,1 for the -1. Eat 4 more wounds. That's 4 dead old marines, chaos marines, 2w Primaris.  In most armies, do you think someone might try to screen a character with 5 primaris, or 5 other 2w marines? Cause if so, the character they were screening is about to get the full brunt of an exorcist, and two if the first one doesn't do the trick. It's also a bracket on most vehicles, and 2 on some. If it's a transport, and that 8 w blows it up, any explosion kills are free gravy.

 

And don't tell me I'm better off spending the points on BSS, because with a 24" range, I disagree.

 

So pretty solid. Maybe better than I expected, but not broken, right?

 

Okay... It's already been long, but this last bit will be shorter, because I don't have to repeat the scenario; I just have to tell you the Crusade extras. Strap yourself in if you don't Crusade. 

 

Crusade:

 

No need to spend pregame CP at all, because 1) every character CAN have a WL trait and 2) by the time your Crusade is 2k, every available warlord trait for your faction can be on the table.

 

And if one of your named has a bespoke WL trait, it doesn't prevent a generic character from having the trait. So you give Beacon of Faith to a Hospitaller or other low target priority character since it doesn't have to be exposed to use the trait, and then you take Celestine as your second beacon for an extra MD per turn.

 

By 2k, your odds of native ability to reroll ones on to hit for those Rets is 4/6. If your crew is cool with picking, it's a slam dunk even by the time your crusade hits 75 PL.

 

Finally, if you're Crusading, it's PL, so the cost of the HB's is less significant than in a point game. It is still there, because of the way PL is calculated, but the variance is chopped in half because they average min vs max points before they divide.

 

Now I confess; I assumed there would be a way to get +1 damage on the HB themselves as an advance, but there isn't- weapon upgrades only apply to the Superior, who doesn't get to carry an HB. That means even in Crusade, it's still not broken, but it's still come up a notch above what was already pretty good.

 

TLDR: It's a minor buff when you don't augment properly with Faith, and when you only think about it on one HB at a time. But it isn't so little when you think about it on a squad of Rets with Faith and CP, or just take a single max unit of Mortifiers to get 8 on the table.

 

Come at me Heretic, because I'm going to burn a CP to do it again on overwatch, and we are Sacred Rose, so we hit on 4's with Storm.

Edited August 15, 2020 by ThePenitentOne

[EmperorGTank]

Overall I love everything about the above, but wanted to clarify two things since you may not be aware. First, remember Storm of Retribution is 2CP, not 1, and second I am almost positive according to our codex's original FAQ the +1 to hit from Storm does not work on overwatch. Still 5+ overwatch with that is scary. I agree fully though that HBs going to D2 is great for us and I love it.

 

Personally I am definitely excited about the changes in general. I usually run either a HB or MM Ret squad in most of my lists in addition to my 2 exorcists so definitely pumped to have them be better. In regards to further possible updates, all veteran infantry like Celestians getting 2W would be amazing. Additionally, I like that they said they have looked at each faction's units and profiles and "dialed them up to 11" as I believe GW put it. I am definitely hoping for a buff to Celestine and some other units in the 9th dex whenever it hits (2022/23?) as well any faction specific weapons (immolation flamer becomes same profile as an inferno cannon maybe?).

 

My only fear going forward is that since we were so late in 8th did they already apply most of our "buffs" in our codex, similar to how PA didn't actually give us anything beyond Stern which personally I don't really count as "us" but the imperium in general. I get it though Sacred Rites in the codex was our similar buff, still I hope we get the same treatment going forward is all, because it seems like, for once, we are actually getting buffed with everyone else through these changes!

Edited August 15, 2020 by EmperorGTank

[taikishi]

 

 

Found a little time.

 

A unit of 4 Mortifiers all with heavy bolters have a 64% chance of dealing between 2.25 and 8.38 unsaved damage to T6-T9 vehicles with a 3+ save.

 

Four Mortifiers are 240 points. A single Rhino is 78. The average 51% of the time you'll bracket a Rhino with 24 heavy bolter shots. ~27% of the time you'll cripple the Rhino. 12.3 of the time you'll destroy it.

 

240 points have a 1/8 chance of destroy a unit 1/3 its cost.

 

If you're going to for heavy bolters at a transport, it should be Raiders. Even then, a unit of 3 Mortifiers only have a 30% chance of popping a Raider while a full unit pops a single Raider 58% of the time

I very much appreciate the math hammer. But like all math hammer, it's subject to isolation from real gaming experiences.

 

For example, if the rhino's explosion kills a few of its passengers, then that changes the cost/benefit analysis significantly.

 

Similarly, miracle dice mess up math hammer every time. Armourium cherubs and strats, and of course simulacra to maximize MD also play a huge role.

 

And finally, the comparison of unit to unit is in itself an abstraction since that's not how the game is actually played. If the vehicle in question has already been damaged by another unit, or if it can subsequently be damaged by another unit, the HB upgrade has an impact by getting it dead faster.

 

Again, none of this is to dis on math hammer; I do appreciate it, and it's not a bad benchmark. Just saying it doesn't always tell the whole story.

You misunderstand the purpose of the math. Someone stated heavy bolters were a good transport deterrent now, but they aren't. The math is there to illustrate why that's a bad idea. On average you'll inflict 4W on most transports with 4 heavy bolter retributors or 2 heavy bolter Mortifiers. Heavy bolters are light and medium infantry killers, not transport killers. Use them to finish off one that's crippled, not one that's fully functional.

 

If anything, firing heavy bolters into a transport that isn't a Raider, Venom, or maybe a Trukk is a waste of shots unless it's literally the only thing in range and line of sight because the shots will likely be more effective elsewhere.

Edited August 17, 2020 by taikishi

[taikishi]

Been meaning to respond to that Triumph post for a while to explain why it's flawed logic, but other matters have been taking up my time.

 

Did want to get this out, though, because it's not shown up in the main forum yet:

 

Per WarCom, all flamers (including hand) are going to 12" range.

[kiron]

So which secondaries are generally best for us? 

 

Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?

 

Also for BR, do we run MSU BSS or 10-15 sized ones?

Also, should we run rhinos or immolaters carrying 6 retributers with 4x MM and combi-melta?

 

Also is celestine worth the points? I feel like she is just a glorified babysitter for her aura most of the time. 

 

Also, should we just take 1 brigage or a combination of battalion and patrol for detachments? I feel we burn 3 CP's just from our list (relic, heroine and veteran strategums) before battle. Burning more CP's seem risky especially when u need to use seraphim and retributor strategums constantly. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by kiron

[Montford]

You choose your Sacred Rite at the beginning of the game; you do not write it on your list.

 

I select my Secondaries based on the situation: i.e. scenario, deployment zones, opponent's army, etc. For example against a player bringing many large squads of orks I chose the Secondary which scores 1 point per 10 enemy models killed.

 

As for Celestine yes I do use her for her aura, but also for her threat. I also use her as a fireman or cleanup as well; I've killed off wounded tanks and flyers with her.

[summercampcrush]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

 

Aura Abilities - Moving forwards, many of the most powerful aura abilities will only affect Core units from a Character’s (sub-)faction.

 

"the Space Marine Captain won’t be able to re-roll his hit rolls of 1 and will instead have to rely on his own merit to strike home. To be fair, he’ll usually hit on a 2+ anyway!"

 

Characters won’t be affected by their own aura abilities, only the core units from a Character’s (sub-)faction.

 

Interesting.

 

edit: curious if similar rules will come into the next Adepta Sororitas codex

Edited September 17, 2020 by summercampcrush

[RolandTHTG]

I'd hope that the faith-based ones stay as auras affecting all units. 

The Cannoness makes sense to follow the SM captain nerf, but things like the Procession increasing the acts of faith of all nearby should stay universal. 

[kiron]

I don't think Core aura changes will affect us for a long time given we will not get a codex for at least a year. 

[summercampcrush]

I'd hope that the faith-based ones stay as auras affecting all units. 

The Cannoness makes sense to follow the SM captain nerf, but things like the Procession increasing the acts of faith of all nearby should stay universal. 

I agree, flavor is a pretty big reason why i fell in love with sisters, they have a weirdo extremist hivemind. NGL tho, i did get a little nervous SM re-rolls were updated. Miracle Dice make me happy.

[Lemondish]

I don't think Core aura changes will affect us for a long time given we will not get a codex for at least a year.

It's possible it will actually come sooner given how much they keep pushing Sisters with Crusade.

 

It may seem like it is too soon for a normally niche army, especially since the codex was one of the last from the previous edition, but they are shown as key pieces in the announcement for 9th, and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for it to come so soon after the last one given how quickly the Marine one is coming.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Lemondish

[dracpanzer]

I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.

 

OoBR

Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw

Canoness- IP and Beneficence

Canoness- IP and AB

 

4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB

4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB

 

Repentia Sup

Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior

2 x Repentia- (8)

2 x Rhino, SB

 

2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2

 

Exorcist- EML, HvB

Retributors- (5) HvB x 4

 

Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?

[Lemondish]

I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.

 

OoBR

Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw

Canoness- IP and Beneficence

Canoness- IP and AB

 

4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB

4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB

 

Repentia Sup

Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior

2 x Repentia- (8)

2 x Rhino, SB

 

2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2

 

Exorcist- EML, HvB

Retributors- (5) HvB x 4

 

Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?

I like the style. One thing I noticed with the list is that even when something is an off meta choice, you've made damn sure it was chosen to fit the concept of the list. I really like that. It's also a great mech list that drops scary transports of obsec goodness on objectives.

 

With the next batch of weapon changes, I think the Immolator will find some table time for most folks, and 4 feels a lot like an absolute blast.

[dracpanzer]

Looks like my first tourney may be before the weapon changes drop. With both of my regular armies gaining a lot from it (one of which isn't much without it) I might run daemons instead. I have always been a mech sisters player (3ed) and will be looking to post my experiences with the list.

[Atrus]

I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.

 

OoBR

Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw

Canoness- IP and Beneficence

Canoness- IP and AB

 

4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB

4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB

 

Repentia Sup

Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior

2 x Repentia- (8)

2 x Rhino, SB

 

2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2

 

Exorcist- EML, HvB

Retributors- (5) HvB x 4

 

Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?

Slight variation to my own default list for games. Viva la mech!

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [100 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

 

Detachment CP

 

Order Convictions: Order: Ebon Chalice

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Open the Reliquaries [-1CP]: Additional Relics of the Ecclesiarchy

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil of the Bloody Tears [7 PL, 125pts]

 

+ HQ +

 

Canoness [3 PL, 65pts]: Blessed Blade, Inferno pistol, Relic: Blade of Admonition, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith

 

Canoness [3 PL, -1CP, 65pts]: Heroine in the Making, Inferno pistol, Power sword, Rod of Office, Warlord Trait: Terrible Knowledge

 

Canoness [3 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Relic: Wrath of The Emperor, Rod of Office

 

+ Troops +

 

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 80pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sister Superior: Boltgun, Chainsword, Inferno pistol

 

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 80pts]

. 2x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer

. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Sister Superior: Boltgun, Chainsword, Inferno pistol

 

Battle Sister Squad [7 PL, 125pts]

. 8x Battle Sister

. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. Sister Superior: Boltgun, Chainsword, Inferno pistol

 

+ Elites +

 

Celestian Squad [7 PL, 95pts]

. 2x Celestian

. Celestian Superior: Inferno pistol, Power maul, Storm bolter [Legends]

. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis

. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter

. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

 

Hospitaller [2 PL, 40pts]

 

Preacher [Legends] [2 PL, 46pts]: Eviscerator, Frag & Krak Grenades, Laspistol

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Dominion Squad [8 PL, 107pts]

. Dominion

. Dominion Superior: Chainsword, Combi-melta, Inferno pistol

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Flamer

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Flamer

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Flamer

. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Flamer

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Exorcist [9 PL, 195pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

 

Exorcist [9 PL, 195pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

 

Exorcist [9 PL, 195pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Immolator [6 PL, 150pts]: Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile, Twin multi-melta

 

Immolator [6 PL, 125pts]: Heavy bolter, Immolation Flamer

 

Immolator [6 PL, 125pts]: Heavy bolter, Immolation Flamer

 

Sororitas Repressor [5 PL, 124pts]: Heavy flamer, Heavy flamer, Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [100 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Atrus

[Charlo]

12" Hand Flamers make me cry with joy as Bloody Rose. Getting to double shoot them from Seraphim squads on the deeptrike will be very nice!

[taikishi]

I'm working on an analysis based on the known changes to heavy bolters, flame weapons, and melta we that probably won't be ready for a while (weeks?), but thought I'd share that Goonhammer has an interesting Bloody Rose list that took first at a tournament recently. 27 Repentia, 9 Mortifiers, only 1 Battle Sister squad. Current weapon profiles. Edited September 30, 2020 by taikishi

[Slasher956]

1 think I've noticed... Sisters now have the only 8" ranged flamers...the saints Ardent blade!

[Atrus]

Yeah think she was ignored because special character.