9th Edition: What we're going to lose

[brother_b]

Hello all, I've been running over potential list builds with all the new stuff so I can focus my builds and hobbying. After a while, I just quit! There's a lot we don't know, but some stuff we've learned with the teaser releases that have been trickling out of GW.

 

As I ponder my list builds, I've noticed some things we'll lose based on new info from 9th.

 

1) Move and fire without penalty. It used to be that one of the only bonuses our vehicles got was to move and still fire at full BS. Now everybody will get that ability. We didn't get move half distance, fire twice. I wonder if we'll get anything to cover the loss to a somewhat unique admech-wide bonus.

 

2) A bonus will be our robots finally being able to move (as they're vehicles) and fire without penalty. That does invalidate the special Vigilus detachment stratagem though. This is minor, but we'll probably see all sorts of little changes to our stratagems.

 

3) Infantry gets the -1 to hit while moving and firing. I hope this won't apply to our Kataphrons! As the Kataphron ability to move and fire without a penalty is a special rule I'm hoping we keep this.

 

4) +2 for Skitarii shooting. I forget the name of the stratagem, but with the data tether and 1 CP you could boost your skitarii unit's shooting by +2. This was great on Icarus Onagers, or while shooting at units with -1 to hit.

 

5) Stygies Dragoons lose the -2 to hit. No benefit there, unless of course you can cancel out a firing unit's +1 bonus and still keep it at -2... (thinking +1 - 2 = -1)

 

Did I miss anything?

 

 

[PiñaColada]

I'm sure there will be quite a few things, taser goads are proccing extra hits on unmodified 6's in Engine War so I imagine taser lances will be the same come 9th (either by errata or new codex). Same with a bunch of new flame weapons (on sterylizors, sulphurhounds) that ignore cover. I imagine all flame weapons will do that in 9th.

The kataphrons are most likely not going to suffer a penalty to hit while moving with heavy weapons as that's a datasheet ability and will surely act as an exception to the rule. From what I understand Power Of The Machine Spirit will do something else in 9th and I'm wondering if that extends to our admech vehicles which already have that rule (albeit under a different name). Kastelans seem like big winners here though on the flip side, as they gain mobility and will most likely be able to shoot in CC as well.

 

What type of cover will shroudpsalm give? I assume it's light cover as that seems to be the direct translation to the cover of old.

 

They've repeatably said that the PAs were written with 9th in mind which is interesting considering what we know of overwatch and Graia's new canticle. Will an army with that new canticle get to use the overwatch strat for free/get access to more than one use of overwatch? Or is the canticle just god awful in 9th?

 

Ruststalkers might actually have a role again, considering what we know of the new reinforcement rule. As a cheap counter punch they might actually be alright as moving them up the board was always the tricky part IMO (and I doubt they'd be woth the CP for the new EW strat).

[MajorNese]

You win some, you lose some.

 

Moving and firing without penalty for vehicles is a double-edged sword for AdMech.

Skorpius and Onager have this, and now it becomes redundant.

Kastelan, Balistarii and the flyer didn't have it, yet make a lot of use of this, since all is Heavy. Balistarii especially can be used as intended, as actually mobile shooting platform instead of stationary strat-boosted AA platform blob. Considering the changes to terrain visibility, this might become damn useful to get shots at otherwise hidden units.

 

Is the shooting bonus/malus capped at +-1 now? I know of the -1, but not the other way around, but I haven't been able to follow every detail recently.

In that case, the +2 to hit strat is still brilliant - -1 to hit is spread far and wide, existing in unit rules (most aircraft are hard to hit), faction rules (Eldar, Alpha Legion), strats, and game mechanics (firing into CC, when falling back and shooting with a rule,...). Compensating -1 and instead boosting it to +1 results in that nice BS2+ for many units. Compensating -2 would only give us no modifier at all, but since it doesn't stack any more, people will stop stacking negative to-hit modifiers by any means possible. Yes, looking at you, Eldar.

 

Shooting into CC might be big for us. We can compensate the downside (-1 to hit) by strat, and we neither have the units to tie up half the board, nor do we have much stuff that expects to survive in CC. All those stubbers might finally be useful for clearing some remaining cultists, while targeting some big target with the neutron laser (that will probably be Blast, so no shooting in CC anyway).

 

Using reserves to charge something in your own deployment zone might make units like Rusties rather useful - a cheap fragile counter-charge unit that can charge out of reserves, staying invulnerable off the board until needed? Hell yes. Vice versa, we won't overrun anyone's deployment zone that quickly, so we don't have much to fear there.

 

Character targeting may be a big one. Vehicles/infantry have to stay within 3" of a char to make it untargetable, yet we don't really have tough units (besides Kastelans) to do this. If someone wants to kill a char, enough firepower for the surrounding units will be able to get the job done, unless we use terrain to break LoS.

 

Terrain changes will make anything with indirect targeting more valuable - since we are restricted to the Belleros Boats in that case, those might become way more interesting than now. Currently, those are only spammed for countering ITC Magic Boxes, which I consider a worse mechanic than 9ths "shoot in/out, not through" solution.

 

GW already said that codex + campaign books/PA are the basis for the next codex wave, but the codex will only pick some parts of the rules, not translate everything 1:1.

I'd expect them to limit the special proccs (like taser goads on 6+, plasma overheating on modified 1s etc.) to unmodified rolls - they did this already for Killteam (in case of plasma) and taser goads (PA), taser lances and plasma in main 40k will surely follow. The rules guy at WarhammerFest said as much (1.5 years ago), making your opponent's guns explode all the time because it's night and you are hard to hit makes no sense.

 

All in all, I'd say this will enable a few more units (instead of making them useless codex fillers), round out some of the clunky rules (kastelan castle locked in CC, unable to do anything) and take the edge off some of the more broken combos (like Eldar -3 to hit). AdMech is mediocre and doesn't rely on one fixed combo/mechanic/game aspect, so this might even the field, but not flip our army's game mechanics upside down.

Edited June 20, 2020 by MajorNese

[brother_b]

Both very good points, thank you for the feedback. I was about to write off robots, but I’m really feeling them right now. I play Stygies , so the ability to move and fire, defend themselves in close combat, pop the Canticle fall back and then engage once more in firing is off the hook. I may boost them to a full six robot unit, and even take the datasmith to troll along with them. I think coupled with the manipulus they may be able to move quite quickly up the board and the range extension would be awesome.

 

It feels like options may be the name of the game for 9th.

[Prot]

The number one thing we lose in 9th, in my opinion, out of everything is; time.

 

The board is smaller, there is less overwatch (if any), and flamers will be less ideal. Movement is key, and being able to counter punch is going to be paramount to success. I can see it already, and some armies in 8th already had very, very reliable ways of bringing the battle to your doorstep in T1. Unless all those mechanics go away, we are losing time to do our stuff. To stay out of smite range, out of heavy assault range... mitigating damage in the corners. 

 

We're going to need resilience and that will push back on our points left for shooting. We'll still need our Skorpius Bellaros because of the potency of Obscuring.

 

All of this comes at another potential price: Characters. We live off of them to make up for some poor rules in the past. They will be much harder to protect now. You'll want to push assaults back, but not leave holes for Deep strike, and keep your characters within 3" of squads. This might be the era of Destroyers/Breachers.

 

Anyway, I think the time lost to do our thing is going to hurt. 

[brother_b]

Excellent point Prot, and one worth considering. Do you feel that the minimum size for tables will become the default? I know you play tournaments probably more so than I do. I can see tournaments adopting the size as it saves room and will speed up the game.

 

Been thinking about how to keep say a horde of berserkers, or Tyranids away. I believe your statement about Kataphrons will probably come true. They’re huge base size and toughness will make them great blocking units. I’ve already used the size of their footprint as it were to hold melee armies at bay.

 

I do feel we have some great counter punch units at hand. I’m thinking of of course stick priests, and dragoons , but also potentially rust stalkers or even sterilyzors. The real question for me is who will lead them? I always thought it was strange how many melee centric warlord traits, and canticles we had. Now maybe will be able to put them to good use.

[Prot]

Thanks. Right now I envision that with the two groups I normally play with, there will be a 4x6 standard. Then tournament season... probably within the same month we will shrink it down as all tournaments would be insane to not use the new table size since they can grow their max player attendance by a good dozen people using similar terrain and a similar hall to host it in.

 

As far as the units I see the Dragoon’s pushing out, and the Destroyers / Breachers doing the firm hold around the HQ’s. There’s also that FnP warlord aura for them (I believe).

 

The problem i always had with the way people were in talking up the Serbery Raider’s ability to ‘retreat’ is you still need the room. We now know you most likely won’t be over watching, so you can retreat 12” but where?

 

For Heavies, the Kastelan (IF it can fire in close combat) may make a comeback as a strong hold unit. 

 

Just guessing for now though. 

[brother_b]

Yes I fully intended to use the Raiders, but will really need to consider what the new table size will bring; much closer together, much easier to get charges, and probably with the new terrain rules much more dense.

 

I’m almost thinking that the table size decrease will limit some of our options tactically. Depending on the army it seems you’ll just have a ton of models with no room to move scrunched together. This is a little dismaying for me as I think of facing an armored company with all those tanks just packed together, or a horde of orc boys where there’s no room to maneuver.

 

I can see our group maintaining the 6‘ x 4‘ playing area. Still I do want to hit more tournaments up so will have to adapt to the new size as well.

 

I have yet to build any of my new models so still have options, but they’re so expensive I really want to get it right. And by that I mean the unit I’ll have the most fun with, while still being the most effective on the battlefield.

Edited June 21, 2020 by brother_b

[DeStinyFiSh]

Do you think snipers will be as good as they are now?

Since it will be harder to hide characters it will be easier to shoot them with regular weapons.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Snipers will still be good for restricting where exactly characters can go without threat just as they do now. Characters just have a couple more options. Snipers may even get a rule that allows them to ignore obscuring terrain. Though I will say that with the new targeting rules about having to be within 3'' will make snipers less of an auto take than they were before. 

[Prot]

Some good thoughts guys.

 

I also have no intentions of finalizing my two boxes of Serberys. Just too much in the air for next edition. For example, if I have to use a Strat to overwatch with them, perhaps the Sulphur Hounds aren't as great?

 

Sniper rifles are even better imho because of 9th. You'll have greater opportunity to start inflicting damage on characters 1) with the flyers and 2) with the new rules. But I believe there will still be ways of offsetting this: Drones, bodyguard type units. 

 

The Arquebus will be a great finisher, even against higher T models.

[MajorNese]

I doubt that snipers will work very well against characters. Obscuring terrain will severely limit where stationary snipers can actually target characters, so the enemy can deploy to keep them safe. It would restrict character positions, but not be the constant influx of damage from turn 1 on, especially against backfield buff characters.

 

The arquebus is not bad against other targets, being more of a portable one-shot autocannon, so it will still serve a purpose. But its original purpose will be harder to achieve.

[DanPesci]

I run 6 arqebus and even when they have no characters to shoot they are still useful at taking a couple of wounds off elite units/light vehicles. With a lot of other threats on the board they're generally ignored turn 1/2 too.

 

Boosted to S8 with mars they become even better at this

 

You can always make obscured work for you and set them up out of LOS covering fire lanes.

 

 

Would be amazing if the omnispex got changed to removing all cover effects instead of just the saving throw but cant see that happening really 

 

Id expect to see some points changes depending on what the overall benefit of sniping is valued at (could go either way really)

 

 

 

The main one for me is what is going to happen to the 'move without penalty' bonus we get with a lot of vehicles. Its awesome that the robots/flyers wont get penalties anymore but Id like to see something else replace it to keep our flavour (rather than it just being say a points drop)

 

- Some rules for ignoring certain types of cover they are moving through (this I think will be the most likely)

- Just give all the vehicles that had this an extra 3" of movement

- Vehicles can advance and shoot at -1 

- Can fire one weapons system twice if they remain stationary (probably too powerful)

Edited June 22, 2020 by DanPesci

[Xisor]

I could see the cheap and strong (if swingy) output of Arquebusiers being useful still. Even in less than optimal places they are surely useful as deterrents - limiting the movement of opponents may be somewhat useful in lieu of just killing the characters.

 

I'd like not to lose the Protocols strategems - they were always fun to use.

 

Reaching into the table to really boost a unit, without it being an absurdly good choice, was very welcome.

[Montoya]

I don't see the changes impacting our snipers at all.   

 

If your opponents weren't already hiding their squishy characters behind cover in 8th edition, then you were not playing against very tactical opponents to be honest. 

 

The new obscured rules have very significant impacts.   But not as huge of an impact against a single character.  (not hard to hide a single guy).

[Xisor]

Thanks. Right now I envision that with the two groups I normally play with, there will be a 4x6 standard. Then tournament season... probably within the same month we will shrink it down as all tournaments would be insane to not use the new table size since they can grow their max player attendance by a good dozen people using similar terrain and a similar hall to host it in.

The Ad Mech Faction Focus post over on WarCom pretty much confirms that the testing is, in fact, balanced around the changed board sizes. (And doubly supports your conclusion re: time.)

 

It'd be a very strange thing to state the following if that weren't the case!

 

"The change in board size presents a new challenge for armies that traditionally relied on making the most of the distance between armies to allow their shooting to take its toll. The change in size isn’t drastic, but it does tighten up the play space, forcing the action and engagement to make the game a bit more fast-paced and interesting. For some players, this may initially lead to a feeling of being overwhelmed by more assault-oriented forces a bit sooner than they would have liked – no more hiding in a corner lobbing shots all game."

Edited June 22, 2020 by Xisor

[Prot]

About the snipers, I actually play on really dense terrain and it really won't make a huge difference. Aura characters are the name of the game and hiding them all game only gets them so far. Plus the Arqubus is just a great all-arounder and those times when you get a character close, hopefully the sniper kicks in.

 

Xisor... I am going to have a few games on the new board size this week. Hopefully one is with my Admech.

 

It's funny because right now the best wl aura feels like exploding 6's. It does good work, but sometimes it's just a bonus if anything happens at all. But the withdraw from CC WL aura may be bigger in the new board size.

 

I haven't had the same issue since our PA came out even though it's 8th ed. My thinking right now is the lack of space/time is going to force me to take more CC units.... heck even Kastelan's with Phosphors that just don't leave Aegis, and hopefully tank shots, and dish out shots in CC? (I believe it's going to work for them.)

 

They might turn out to be a good stop gap measure. 

[Xisor]

Suddenly, ruststalkers everywhere? 

 

(If only!)