What would Dorn think of the BT now?

[Brother Kraskor]

Well met brothers,

 

Now, we know GW aren't completely opposed to bringing back Primarchs any more, and Dorn has gone from all but confirmed dead to just his hand being confirmed dead. And while I reckon he's definitely not top of GW's list of revival candidates, let's imagine he comes back for a minute.

 

What would he think of the Black Templars? We know he had a big falling out with Sigismund for the latter's believing in the vision of an Imperial Saint. Dorn wholeheartedly believed in the vision of a secular Imperium and privately disowned Sigismund as his son. And now the Black Templars are the biggest proponents of the Imperial Creed in all the Astartes.

 

Would he be horrified? Would he disown the BT again? Or would he see past it and return the BT to him as the Imperial Fists 1st Company?

 

Let me know what you think brothers.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think he would be best pleased, he was a key believer in the Great Crusade and what they were trying to achieve.

 

We know that Vulkan didn't like it when they tracked him down and Guilliman is less than keen on the Imperial Creed since his return. (But seems to be wavering...?)

 

Whether Dorn outwardly goes mental depends on how tempered he is. Guilliman is known not to like the Ecclesiarchy, but tolerates it as a necessity. I don't know if Dorn would be as restrained.

 

His temper also depends on where he has been these past millennia, if he's been frozen, like Guilliman or The Lion, he may take it harder, if he's been alive and awake the whole time, as likely are Vulkan or Jaghatai, he may be more pragmatic, as it won't be such a shock.

[Brother Kraskor]

So say he takes the less restrained option, and is very public in denouncing what his old 1st Company has become. How would the BT take that? I think they would be unlikely to go back on 10,000 years of tradition, even for their progenitor. To them it would be a battle of loyalties between their Primarch and their Emperor. They've been burning traitors and heretics for so long that I think they've learned the lessons of history when it comes to that battle of loyalties. 

 

Might they even go so far as to brand Dorn a heretic? I suspect probably not, as the majority of Astartes don't believe the Imperial Creed and the BT tolerate them. 

[Medjugorje]

After 10k years Dorn must see that as his own failing if he is like you expect him.

 

I would expect Dorn very different. Guilliman was always loyal to the ideas of the Imperium, Dorn is loyal to the emperor himself. At first the Ecclesiarchie is bigger then one chapter could be - even greater in power then one legion, so his first step into the new imperium would be a very huge god-emperor - warshipping imperium. 

And as I said it already, 10k past years he made his own experience and I would expect that he would learn a lot of how the warp works and maybe he would come back as a true believer.

 

All in all we even dont know what happened to the relationship between him and Sigismund in Battle for terra. In the old lore he decided to make Sigismund to the first Emperors champion. Maybe it will be on the emperors command - or maybe he will forgive Sigismund or maybe he will change his mind in this series.

 

There are a lot of odds we cannot know.

 

I for myself always liked the idea that it was always the emperors plan to becoming a godlike creatur after the first plan to destroy chaos failed when the golden throne was destroyed/Magnus did everything wrong.

 

So if it would be the emperors command deciding Sigismund as his champion there would be two things:

- Dorn fallow the old way but is quiet because it was the emperors command

- Dorn already in fine with it.

[Brother Kraskor]

I'm not so sure Dorn would be the one coming around. Remember he was there and received the Emperor's final instructions as he was interred in the Golden Throne, he saw the early stages of the Emperor's 'godhood' (according to the Creed). Just because those beliefs have now spread widely, is that going to make Dorn more likely to believe them, when he was such a proponent of the Imperial Truth? I think him turning true believer is unlikely.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

I'm not so sure if I agree with some of the above. In reading much in the way of the HH series in my absence from this forum, and paying particular attention to the VII Legion's actions(/inactions?), Dorn's absolute fury with Sigismund and subsequent exile to the absolute furthest reaches of the Sol Perimeter speaks wholly to his "unbending nature". It is stated so time and time again. He sees the refusal of Sigismund to command the Retribution Fleet sent to the Isstvan System and returning to Terra with the bulk of the Legion as being misguided. Basically, that he was lied to by a mere mortal, possibly a psyker (bear in mind that this is well after the Nikea Edict), and that he was fallible enough to fall for it. IMHO, Dorn's anger was well justified, and once that anger is placed, not so easily overlooked.

 

However, Sigismund's confession to Dorn showed a huge amount of courage on his part, and I think that's why he was not killed out of hand immediately. I also think this is why he was not technically removed from any of his offices within the Legion structure. Even through Dorn's fury at his disowned son, he could see the benefits of keeping him "in place". Also, the overall morale of the Legion would suffer if it was made public that the 1st Capitan had been censured and removed from office, disavowed, and banished. His skills greatly influenced and uplifted his Legion, and even in his rage, he had to see that throwing him away could cause irreparable damage at a time when the Legion needed to be at it's strongest and most stalwart.

 

Now, we don't yet have the full story here. It's still in production, and we may in fact have an opportunity at some form of reconciliation between the Primarch and the 1st Capitan. From what we know of the lore at this point, Sigismund is named by Dorn as "The Emperor's Champion", tasked with seeking and eliminating enemy champions and leadership (often one and the same), but what we don't yet know is why. We also know that after Dorn's acceptance of the Codex Astartes, He gives Sigismund an entirely new Chapter, full of the most zealous and close combat oriented warriors at the battles end. Then, there is the vow made by the newly appointed High Marshal to, and I paraphrase here, "Prove their undying loyalty to the Imperium and the Emperor" by embarking on a never ending Crusade to fight back every threat to the reforming Imperium of Mankind. This means to me that he still had something to prove not only to the Imperium, but to Dorn as well.

 

Now, to the question at hand here: Would Dorn approve of the current BT 10k years later. Here, we fall on a double edged sword, with so many unknowns and variables that it could (and should, by us here) be viewed from multiple angles. I'll give a few of my opinions here.

 

First, Dorn would have to see the Imperium for what it has become. Even if he doesn't like it, actively refutes worship of the Emperor as a God, he would be forced to see the benefit such belief overall has on keeping the vast majority of the human race from finding a need to believe in something greater than what they see every day fulfilled by the Chaos powers. I'm almost positive that in the aftermath of the HH, Siege of Terra, and The Scouring, humanity would almost need to put their collective belief in something. There was already a prepared writing, and widespread belief gaining traction even before his disappearance (I won't say death, you need more than a hand to confirm that). I'm also sure that he would have seen some things that could not be explained away by psyker powers or science prior to his disappearance as well. The fact is, he would know that the Emperor was reaching into the galaxy all the way from the throne on Terra and shaping key events. Should he come back, the massive amount of archival evidence would only back that up.

 

He already knew that Sigismund had begun to believe as the Saint did. Perhaps he knowingly placed those within the old Legion who either outright believed as Sigismund did or were more open to the idea of it in the ranks of the BT from the outset. It would make sense to do so. Dorn would rid the other forming Chapters of these believers, and not cause undo friction within the ranks of the BT right away. Put like minds with like minds, if you will.

 

Assuming that, would he accept it? In the end, I have to say yes, but it would be a grudging one at best. There would be no love for the BT, but history has already shown that he would not throw out a usable weapon in his arsenal just because he was upset with it. I also think he would recognize the BT have kept to Sigismund's original ideal of never ending the Crusade to prove their undying loyalty. He would also see, from historical records, that when the order to reform for the Last Wall Protocol was enacted during the War of the Beast, these wayward sons responded in kind with almost every other Chapter of his bloodline, even going so far as to eschew their own colors and beliefs to reconstruct the destroyed IF in the aftermath.

 

To end, I believe it would be acceptance at arms length.

[BitsHammer]

Short answer from me is going to have to do with what Dorn is like in 40k. Has he accepted his nature as something tied to the warp like Corax and become some kind of loyalist Daemon Prince, or is he still flesh and blood?

 

The other great question is what has he been doing for 10k years. Because that would tie more into how his personality may evolve over time and result in his abilitt to accept the beliefs of the Templars.

 

Dorn has always struck me as a pragmatist. I mean when the Council of Nikea said to disband the Librarians and shuffle them into the ranks as common soldiers he secretly kept them together, just not deployed in combat. When he was forced to disband his legion into Chapters he still created the Last Wall protocol.

 

He follows the letter of the rule, but will disobey the spirit as the need suits him so he could go either way in my mind. It just depends if he's following the letter of the Imperial Truth or the Imperial Creed.

 

After all, Dorn is the only Primarch to have known fear (as far as I know anyways) which means he may be more in touch with human emotions like faith than many of the other Primarchs, even if he projects an emotionless exterior.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Fulkes

[redmapa]

I have no idea where GW wants to take Dorn's character after the Heresy but older lore described Dorn as having accepted the Emperor's divinity as the cults that worshiped him began to take over the galaxy so maybe he will still become that character that is left alone in a ever changing galaxy and because of that he accepts this new reality. If Dorn comes back he should be the opposite of Guilliman in that he should not have that cultural shock BECAUSE he saw the Imperium becoming what it is in 40k.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Do the Primarchs know no fear? In the marines that's the result of Hypno indoctrination etc.

 

I'd have thought the Primarchs would know fear, just not have it affect them. They're always said to experience all human emotions, just to a heightened state. They are SuperHUMAN whereas Marines are not really human anymore.

[redmapa]

Do the Primarchs know no fear? In the marines that's the result of Hypno indoctrination etc.

 

I'd have thought the Primarchs would know fear, just not have it affect them. They're always said to experience all human emotions, just to a heightened state. They are SuperHUMAN whereas Marines are not really human anymore.

 

I believe they were referring to a short story called the Lighting Tower (i think) where Malcador was discussing about Curze with Dorn and how Dorn almost died being gutted by Curze in one of his psychotic fits before he went rogue so as far as other Primarchs go Dorn is the one that knows what it feels to be vulnerable and dying and that puts fear in him and he says as much to Malcador. Im sure other Primarchs know fear but they are superhuman, they may not know how it feels to be weak and powerless as much as Dorn felt having his guts ripped.

[Brother Kraskor]

I like the point about his pragmatism - he was disappointed with Sigismund but kept him for practical purposes, maybe he would see the BT the same way.

 

If he did begrudgingly accept the Imperial Creed, do you think he could (or has) found forgiveness for Sigismund himself? I think it would be cool to see Dorn swear personal vengeance on Abaddon for killing his (arguably) greatest son, and also more broadly for the 10,000 years of war he has been allowed to get away with. While Guilliman crusades to restore the Imperium, Dorn crusades to finally bring the Emperor's justice to its oldest foes.

[BitsHammer]

Do the Primarchs know no fear? In the marines that's the result of Hypno indoctrination etc.

 

I'd have thought the Primarchs would know fear, just not have it affect them. They're always said to experience all human emotions, just to a heightened state. They are SuperHUMAN whereas Marines are not really human anymore.

Dorn experiances it for the first time during the Seige of Terra and didn't recognize it, so they're capable of it but don't truly know what the emotion is.

[Medjugorje]

 very interesting theme here. Sigismund died before Dorn disappeared right?

 

ADB wrote in "Black Legion" that the first crusade was successful (in the view of the Imperium) thrown back into the eye of terror by the Imperium and the Imperial Fists + Black Templars played the biggest role in that conflict.

 

 

Often the most simple thing is probably the best: Dorn is still angry but accept the Black Templars - like the other Sons of Dorn did in the "Beast" series.

[Marshal Loss]

Worth considering that Dorn was - by the admission of Imperial Fists who saw him prior to his departure/death - visibly broken by the Emperor's internment & the events of the Heresy. See e.g. Apocalypse. Point being, it's very difficult to envisage what he would be like if he conceivably returned

 

(and for the record I still think he should be dead, but this probably isn't the right subforum to parrot that view)

[BitsHammer]

I stand by that a Primarch ahould only, narratively at least (excluding incomplete clones like Horus who was missing a soul), fall to another Primarch or equally powerful being. Being dragged down by a horde of Chaos Marines sounds more like attempted suicide by heretic then how a Primarch could go out.

 

I'd rather Dorn be a prisoner of Perturabo sincw it fits Pert's character to shove every failure of Dorn's sons at Dorn himself.

[Medjugorje]

I stand by that a Primarch ahould only, narratively at least (excluding incomplete clones like Horus who was missing a soul), fall to another Primarch or equally powerful being. Being dragged down by a horde of Chaos Marines sounds more like attempted suicide by heretic then how a Primarch could go out.

 

I'd rather Dorn be a prisoner of Perturabo sincw it fits Pert's character to shove every failure of Dorn's sons at Dorn himself.

That would be very hard and bad - and awesome too. Very tragic

[Boldthreat]

Man oh man. Here we go.

 

Hell I don’t think he would be upset... I think he would be a proponent of the very same ideology! I will even go further, if/when Dorn comes back... he’s leading the Black Templars in a righteous and holy crusade for his God-Emperor.

 

Let’s back up. Dorn in the Heresy and Dorn post the Emperors internment are two different animals. Dorn doesn’t relent to Guilliman because he thinks Roboute is correct, Dorn relents because of a spiritual experience he has in the Pain Glove.

 

He believed the Emperor dead, that he failed... and he was consumed by wrathful vengeance more than anything else. That’s why he was blindsided and angry with Guilliman and his reforms. He couldn’t understand this world without his father and wanted to make anyone and everyone pay.

 

It was only through meditation in the Pain Glove, that Rogal Dorn was visited by his God. Who told him he could no longer serve the Emperor that was, but he could still serve the Emperor that is! And it completely consumes him and he does a 180... The Pain glove was a confessional... the Iron Cage a baptism. One that would see Rogal Dorn born again as a faithful believer in the Messiah, the savior and God of humanity. What does the IA say about Dorn’s death? That he went to it knowingly, because as the last of the Primarchs he was starting to be deified... and he believed there was only one being worth that worship... his God-Emperor... the one he communes with in pain and sacrifice. Rogal Dorn is a 40k version of Paul the Apostle.

 

Theory time: It wasn’t Lorgars words that start the Imperium to Emperor Worship. Nope... it’s Dorn’s doing. He saw the end of the age of the Primarchs. Now whether he believes it personally or not (I could go either way), but he knew it was the only thing that could keep the Imperium together in this new Emperor-less age.

 

The Horus Heresy has bent itself over backwards showing you that Dorn... for all his righteous and truthfulness, is more than capable of burying the truth with death and burning history. He will kill innocent people based on the legitimate knowledge they possess... which could be used to destroy his fathers realm. He killed a Primarch and completely intends to hide it! Because he can’t let anyone know that the traitors got to Pluto before the invasion. Rogal Dorn is the father of the current Imperium. He’s the father of the lies and Inquisition, of burned away knowledge and innocent blood. All to keep his fathers Imperium together.

 

The Black Templars were created to enforce this ideology whilst he bid his time. Who better to lead this group of true believers than the crazy religious nut who no one trusted. On the surface he rebuilt the Fists as codex compliant (maybe). On the surface he gave the Exemplars his blessing. But in the black fortress of his broken mind, the Templars did his real bidding. He just needed to outlive his brothers to enact his plan...

 

He’s Guillimans true foil. Like him in so many ways... but instead of courage, honor, knowledge and reasoning... he’s faithful, hateful, and believes the truth is dangerous.

 

At least that’s how I connect the dots.

[BitsHammer]

 

I stand by that a Primarch ahould only, narratively at least (excluding incomplete clones like Horus who was missing a soul), fall to another Primarch or equally powerful being. Being dragged down by a horde of Chaos Marines sounds more like attempted suicide by heretic then how a Primarch could go out.

 

I'd rather Dorn be a prisoner of Perturabo sincw it fits Pert's character to shove every failure of Dorn's sons at Dorn himself.

That would be very hard and bad - and awesome too. Very tragic

 

It'd also explain how he was "lost" for 10k years and would create a nice parallel with a long standing fan favorite: Lysander, who was help captive for some time and had to escape. It's a narrative link that I think would work well.

 

What I'd expect GW to pull is something like that Dorn was hidden somewhere on the Phallanx to recover from his wounds in secret and has either been secretly leading the Fists from behind the scenes (not likely) or was incapacitated in some way that takes him out  of the story for a time but doesn't make it hard for him to come back.

[Medjugorje]

Man oh man. Here we go.

 

Hell I don’t think he would be upset... I think he would be a proponent of the very same ideology! I will even go further, if/when Dorn comes back... he’s leading the Black Templars in a righteous and holy crusade for his God-Emperor.

 

Let’s back up. Dorn in the Heresy and Dorn post the Emperors internment are two different animals. Dorn doesn’t relent to Guilliman because he thinks Roboute is correct, Dorn relents because of a spiritual experience he has in the Pain Glove.

 

He believed the Emperor dead, that he failed... and he was consumed by wrathful vengeance more than anything else. That’s why he was blindsided and angry with Guilliman and his reforms. He couldn’t understand this world without his father and wanted to make anyone and everyone pay.

 

It was only through meditation in the Pain Glove, that Rogal Dorn was visited by his God. Who told him he could no longer serve the Emperor that was, but he could still serve the Emperor that is! And it completely consumes him and he does a 180... The Pain glove was a confessional... the Iron Cage a baptism. One that would see Rogal Dorn born again as a faithful believer in the Messiah, the savior and God of humanity. What does the IA say about Dorn’s death? That he went to it knowingly, because as the last of the Primarchs he was starting to be deified... and he believed there was only one being worth that worship... his God-Emperor... the one he communes with in pain and sacrifice. Rogal Dorn is a 40k version of Paul the Apostle.

 

Theory time: It wasn’t Lorgars words that start the Imperium to Emperor Worship. Nope... it’s Dorn’s doing. He saw the end of the age of the Primarchs. Now whether he believes it personally or not (I could go either way), but he knew it was the only thing that could keep the Imperium together in this new Emperor-less age.

 

The Horus Heresy has bent itself over backwards showing you that Dorn... for all his righteous and truthfulness, is more than capable of burying the truth with death and burning history. He will kill innocent people based on the legitimate knowledge they possess... which could be used to destroy his fathers realm. He killed a Primarch and completely intends to hide it! Because he can’t let anyone know that the traitors got to Pluto before the invasion. Rogal Dorn is the father of the current Imperium. He’s the father of the lies and Inquisition, of burned away knowledge and innocent blood. All to keep his fathers Imperium together.

 

The Black Templars were created to enforce this ideology whilst he bid his time. Who better to lead this group of true believers than the crazy religious nut who no one trusted. On the surface he rebuilt the Fists as codex compliant (maybe). On the surface he gave the Exemplars his blessing. But in the black fortress of his broken mind, the Templars did his real bidding. He just needed to outlive his brothers to enact his plan...

 

He’s Guillimans true foil. Like him in so many ways... but instead of courage, honor, knowledge and reasoning... he’s faithful, hateful, and believes the truth is dangerous.

 

At least that’s how I connect the dots.

wow!!!

 

I like that. But its funny to see how different this material is seen 

[Scammel]

The Horus Heresy has bent itself over backwards showing you that Dorn... for all his righteous and truthfulness, is more than capable of burying the truth with death and burning history. He will kill innocent people based on the legitimate knowledge they possess... which could be used to destroy his fathers realm. He killed a Primarch and completely intends to hide it! Because he can’t let anyone know that the traitors got to Pluto before the invasion. Rogal Dorn is the father of the current Imperium. He’s the father of the lies and Inquisition, of burned away knowledge and innocent blood. All to keep his fathers Imperium together.

Now this is really interesting, because my read of the situation is very similar to this but arrives at a completely different evaluation of Dorn's character. I think the point of divergence is our interpretation of why Dorn made those choices and what it says about him.

 

Almost uniquely, Dorn's personal ego and desires aren't really the source of his psychodrama, beyond his belief in the early Imperial project. He's by far the one most committed to actually saving the day, and the choices he makes which set the foundation stones of 40k are ones that he hates. He hates having to tear down Terra and transform it into an ugly fortress, he hates information warfare and he hates the personnel sacrifices of the Siege itself, but he also seems to be the only Primarch with enough of an understanding of the gravity of the situation to make those sacrifices; his internal conflict is between Dorn the ultimate devotee and Dorn the ultimate pragmatist. I suspect he will be the one to formally press the start button on the Imperial Cult in the face of daemonic attack on the palace, and that this will be his Lightning Tower.

 

Dorn doesn't have wings he can unfurl to make everything better again. Corax left, Russ left. Guilliman may have made better choices than Dorn if he was present, but he wasn't there. Guilliman will always have to wrestle with the questions of whether or not he tried hard enough to contact Terra, or if he would have noticed something was amiss with Horus if he'd just spent less time building his own empire, whereas Dorn will always be able to stand on the ashes of the Imperium he tried to save, throw his arms wide and simply ask "Where were you?"

 

Where might this leave him in 40k? I think self-loathing, rather than outward anger. Dorn the pragmatist won't be able to deny the might and longevity of the Templars, nor will he able to hate them as individuals; after all, in finally granting Sigismund the release his soul needs, the Templars are very much the children of his own choices. He'll accept full blame for the Templars being frothing, xenophobic lunatics, and divert that angst inwards.

 

Dorn's my favourite Primarch, if you couldn't tell.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Scammel

[Medjugorje]

The main thing for me in this discussion is the whole time between the information we already have and the time when they disappeared. I think from the great cruasade to the siege time pass about 200-300 years I think. then 1000 years passed where we saw the rebuilding of the imperium and the scouring before the first black crusade takes part.

 

there is a lot of time between. The only things we know is that the imperium recovered very well under the primarchs and the new space Marine chapters but there was a small period with conflict potential between the old legions who want to split into codex Astartes and the other ones. The ecclesiarchy wasnt that strong in this periode. 

 

So I assume that if Dorn really had a great antipathy against the Black Templars, why there was nothing done - and not just from Dorn - I mean the Ultramrines with Guilliman himself. Before the black crusade arrived the Imperium the Black Templars were legion sized ( ADB in black legion).

[BitsHammer]

I'd have to look again, but didn't Dorn vanish during like the 3rd Black Crusade?

[Boldthreat]

 

 

 

 

I stand by that a Primarch ahould only, narratively at least (excluding incomplete clones like Horus who was missing a soul), fall to another Primarch or equally powerful being. Being dragged down by a horde of Chaos Marines sounds more like attempted suicide by heretic then how a Primarch could go out.

 

I'd rather Dorn be a prisoner of Perturabo sincw it fits Pert's character to shove every failure of Dorn's sons at Dorn himself.

That would be very hard and bad - and awesome too. Very tragic

It'd also explain how he was "lost" for 10k years and would create a nice parallel with a long standing fan favorite: Lysander, who was help captive for some time and had to escape. It's a narrative link that I think would work well.

 

What I'd expect GW to pull is something like that Dorn was hidden somewhere on the Phallanx to recover from his wounds in secret and has either been secretly leading the Fists from behind the scenes (not likely) or was incapacitated in some way that takes him out of the story for a time but doesn't make it hard for him to come back.

My opinion, Dorn’s been in the shadows the whole time. He didn’t leave. He’s been slowly directing the Imperium behind the scenes. He comes out of hiding because Guilliman and his whole knowledge, reasoning, and fight against the church of Man is threatening everything Dorn has set up over 10,000 years.

 

Someone has to show up and say “No... Dad is a God, and you are going to worship him, or fake it like everyone else”.

 

Something like that. Remember, Guilliman isn’t exactly drinking the Emperors koolaid post his meeting. Dorn is always going to be in dads camp. He was designed that way.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

The Horus Heresy has bent itself over backwards showing you that Dorn... for all his righteous and truthfulness, is more than capable of burying the truth with death and burning history. He will kill innocent people based on the legitimate knowledge they possess... which could be used to destroy his fathers realm. He killed a Primarch and completely intends to hide it! Because he can’t let anyone know that the traitors got to Pluto before the invasion. Rogal Dorn is the father of the current Imperium. He’s the father of the lies and Inquisition, of burned away knowledge and innocent blood. All to keep his fathers Imperium together.

Now this is really interesting, because my read of the situation is very similar to this but arrives at a completely different evaluation of Dorn's character. I think the point of divergence is our interpretation of why Dorn made those choices and what it says about him.

 

Almost uniquely, Dorn's personal ego and desires aren't really the source of his psychodrama, beyond his belief in the early Imperial project. He's by far the one most committed to actually saving the day, and the choices he makes which set the foundation stones of 40k are ones that he hates. He hates having to tear down Terra and transform it into an ugly fortress, he hates information warfare and he hates the personnel sacrifices of the Siege itself, but he also seems to be the only Primarch with enough of an understanding of the gravity of the situation to make those sacrifices; his internal conflict is between Dorn the ultimate devotee and Dorn the ultimate pragmatist. I suspect he will be the one to formally press the start button on the Imperial Cult in the face of daemonic attack on the palace, and that this will be his Lightning Tower.

 

Dorn doesn't have wings he can unfurl to make everything better again. Corax left, Russ left. Guilliman may have made better choices than Dorn if he was present, but he wasn't there. Guilliman will always have to wrestle with the questions of whether or not he tried hard enough to contact Terra, or if he would have noticed something was amiss with Horus if he'd just spent less time building his own empire, whereas Dorn will always be able to stand on the ashes of the Imperium he tried to save, throw his arms wide and simply ask "Where were you?"

 

Where might this leave him in 40k? I think self-loathing, rather than outward anger. Dorn the pragmatist won't be able to deny the might and longevity of the Templars, nor will he able to hate them as individuals; after all, in finally granting Sigismund the release his soul needs, the Templars are very much the children of his own choices. He'll accept full blame for the Templars being frothing, xenophobic lunatics, and divert that angst inwards.

 

Dorn's my favourite Primarch, if you couldn't tell.

Oh he’s mine as well. His character is fascinating and I have been hooked since the initial Index Astartes article.

 

I think Dorn has a mental break... and I’m not convinced he ever gets back to his pre Heresy self.

 

Another Dark theory I hope to see explored... is what if Dorn puts the Emperor on the Golden Throne against his will? What if the Emperor never intended to be what he has become, but was imprisoned so because of a sons inability to let his father die? Dorn being so loyal to his father, that his love for him causes him to do the one thing the father hoped to avoid.

 

I think there is a fall coming for Dorn. I hope we get to discover it in the end of the Horus Heresy... and the new setting. Guilliman is now finally going to read Lorgars words and beliefs... and he’s going to discover that this was just the Old Testament, and the New Testament that drives the Imperium appears to be written by another of his brothers hand.

 

What I don’t want to see... is another “Dorn was being held captive” or “Dorn was just leading the Custodes” or “Lost in the Warp”.

 

No I want a 10,000 year old Dorn who has been weighed down by 10 thousand years of lies, secrets and war in the shadows. Of countless years of setting up a religion his father didn’t want, of merciless slaughter of countless Imperial servants and heroes. You thought old Dorn was stubborn... new Dorn would be so cemented in his ways he would be beyond reconciliation with Guilliman’s ideas.

 

That’s the story I want to read.

[Boldthreat]

I'd have to look again, but didn't Dorn vanish during like the 3rd Black Crusade?

I don’t recall if it is ever mentioned what particular Black Crusade involves the Sword of Sacrilege incident.

 

What we do know is that he outlives Guilliman... and institutes the 3rd Founding to the shock of the Ultramarines and their Primogenitors. Which indicates he is the de facto head of the Imperium at the time.

 

Since Black Legion is a novel based around the first Chaos incursion into the Imperium since running to the Eye of Terra. We know he must be alive in that novel. Though he is never mentioned.