crazy idea

[clanfield]

hi guys i had a crazy idea over a lasagne tonight so bear with me:

 

 

so the close of the heresy guliman gives cawl the magic box of gene seed gubbins tells him go away fix all this new stuff yo bro

 

now the good part i remembered the abraxas nebula fight and the dark angel infiltrators spying on both sides ,soo

what if the lion knew about cawls mission via some monitoring methods (re spy's) and then what if at least some of the fallen are 

actually hidden away waiting the day when guilman betrays the emperor.

 

 

now we get the great nilghaus / primus war, returned lion ,primus vs first born etc  I know its crazy and I got no proof but it kind fits

 

so my ask is help flesh this idea out  for example iv not read all the heresy books etc sounds like a fun project 

 

 

? 

[jbaeza94]

Pretty sure only the traitorous da were whisked away by Chaos, and any loyalist on planet died

[Isual]

I really wish GW had just said "hey, there are some updated new Space Marines Kits to play with, take it or leave it" so we wouldnt have to deal with this whole "primaris vs. firstborne" stuff for the next years.

It's getting close to the DA are traitor "joke" by now.

[Interrogator Stobz]

God that would have been soooooo much better. In every single way.

[N1SB]

hi guys i had a crazy idea over a lasagne tonight so bear with me:

 

so my ask is help flesh this idea out  for example iv not read all the heresy books etc sounds like a fun project

 

 

When lasagna speaks, we listen.  I wish I had some right now.  And I'm here to help flesh your idea out because I read the Horus Heresy books, but it turns out, imho your biggest aid comes from one of the recent timeline books, Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work.

 

Here's I think the main piece of the puzzle for you...

 

 

so the close of the heresy guliman gives cawl the magic box of gene seed gubbins tells him go away fix all this new stuff yo bro

 

 

Roboute Guilliman is the great statesman, if you want someone to deal with the politics of the Imperium.  This comment isn't directed at any real-world politician, just the whole nature of politics, but despite the Primaris being called "The Primarch's Gift" and everything, Gulliman was taking full credit for something he had less to do with then he says.

 

It was mostly the Emperor's own project.  According to Belisarius Cawl's memories, the Emperor just called it "The Great Work".  It started way, way back, and it's presented like everything from Thunder Warriors before them to Firstborn to Primaris were part of the same ongoing project, always, always building upon the technology.  "The Great Work" probably involved other stuff like the Great Crusade itself and the all-important Webway Project, but in any case, the Emperor saw it as a continuous thing.

 

Belisarius Cawl probably went to Roboute Guilliman for help after the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne, but "The Great Work" was long in motion.

 

So the Dark Angels, whether it be the Lion OR maybe even a Chief Apothecary, might've put the puzzle pieces together because they were involved from the very start of the Great Crusade and noticed something about Space Marine creation over time.  I've seen how stuff like this happens in technology, especially in video games.  You buy a video game, but someone does some data mining on the game files, he notices there's odd files that suggest they left some room for new expansions, and they can tell from some filename what a new character is called, etc.

 

The Dark Angels as the 1st Legion, even in 30k, were kinda the early testers for Space Marine technology.  Beyond just signature cultural weapons (like Caliban Blades), they get crazy Acidic or Stasis Bolt Shells (that were being tested early on, then kinda abandoned).  It's possible for someone involved in the Space Marine creation process to notice through time there were slight differences in what they had at the start of the Great Crusade to the Horus Heresy.  Like they're comparing the early geneseed implantation procedure from earliest part of the Great Crusade...when things were still kinda being tested out...and notice like gaps that were meant to be filled in at a later point.

 

And they gotta wonder, are they actually working on something that would make themselves obsolete, just as the Thunder Warriors were?  So the focus isn't so much on Guilliman, but the Emperor himself.  That's whom these Fallen are focused on.  Guilliman is now his Avenging Son, but these Fallen are actually aiming above him, at the Master of Mankind himself.

 

 

 

what if the lion knew about cawls mission via some monitoring methods (re spy's) and then what if at least some of the fallen are 

 

 

I like how you called it Cawl's mission (rather than Cawl himself), because at that time, he was a nobody, just some random Techpriest.  Due to very strange circumstances he basically got handed "The Great Work".  Someone like the Lion or the Fallen you're thinking of would certainly not care who Cawl is, but he'd very much care about what he's working on.

 

Even before the Heresy, some savvy Legionnaires were worried that, just as they replaced the Thunder Warriors, they themselves would be replaced by the next generation of Space Marines...what we now call the Primaris.  It would be like the Emperor betraying the very soldiers that delivered to him the Imperium during the Great Crusade.

 

(To be clear, I've no problem with the Primaris, I play with them, but I'm saying the old Legionnaires and some Firstborn definitely had problems with being replaced, as anyone would.)

 

 

what if at least some of the fallen are 

actually hidden away waiting the day when guilman betrays the emperor.

 

 

 

So we were talking about Guilliman, Cawl, etc.  To these Fallen, it might not have started as a personal vendetta against Guilliman, or Cawl, but they're probably against being treated like Thunder Warriors.  To them, as soon as they saw the next generation of Space Marines, that would be proof to them that the Emperor had planned for them to be wiped out.

 

To these Fallen, as soon as they heard about the Primaris (from Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade proclamation), THAT was the evidence they needed.  In their eyes, it would justify why they went against their brothers, the Lion, the Emperor himself...because they knew from early on they would be betrayed some day.  That day is NOW.

 

The Fallen might think of themselves as the good guys, trying to save other Loyalist Firstborn Chapters yet to receive Primaris, trying to protect Marines like themselves from the new technology.  That's really a fun story and I think I really want to get some Lasagna now.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Love that explanation, send it to GW immediately Brother.

 

Now let's see the fluff progress in a truly grimdark manner; Astartes go to war against Primaris and we have another civil war....

 

 

....My Dark Angels are going dark.

[clanfield]

wow N1SB that's good stuff i agree on every point.

 

regarding it not being personal of course the end result is what ways heavily  . and this expands on the fallen not just being chaos fan boys giving them depth

 

also only two primarchs stayed very loosely in the galaxy the rest all left( cavat for the kahn he went on a webway ride) guliman and the lion, it hard to beleve the lion would ignore his duty to the imperium or his father.

 

so many of the old dark angel story's (plains people etc) are now being said to be apocryphal is there more to tale of calibans fall ,did luther tell the lion some hidden truth to the lion during there duel  it fits that his mind broke if he considered he (luther)was trying to help and it all went south much better than the spoiled arrogance story we have so far,

 

i do not have a problem with primarus and i do not believe the dark angels are traitors ,i do fell the story is not black and white and there fore richer and more vibrant though.

[N1SB]

Yeah, I'll just share something from the Horus Heresy that I'm constantly reminded of with the current timeline.  It's Imperium Secundus, from The Unremembered Empire.  It involves a lot of the Primarchs, but the central figures are Roboute Guilliman, the Lion then Sanguinius.  You might know it, so I'll recap what relates to your idea of how some of the Fallen have been spying on Guilliman.

 

 

+++ Recap +++

 

 

In Roboute Guilliman's sector of Ultramar, the light of the Astronimcan on Terra "blinked" out (due to Word Bearer shenanigans), so he assumes Terra has fallen and immediately enacts his back-up plan for creating a 2nd Imperium.  He sets up his own beacon in the Warp and starts building his own little empire.  The Lion, who was in the area, shows up.

 

Guilliman is selling the Lion on his whole back-up Imperium Secundus, but iirc even at the time, he was a little bit afraid the Lion thought he and his Ultramarines had gone, not Traitor like Horus has, but neglected his duties to the actual Imperium in favour of his own Imperium ver 2.0.  To show his goodwill, Guiliman tells the Lion he's not interested in replacing the Emperor, going so far as offering Johnson the throne and eventually the equivalent role of the Lord Protector, a title akin to the Warmaster.

 

The Lion doesn't seem to like it, but there's already a whole Heresy going on, and he also doesn't want to let Guilliman go unchecked, so he takes on the title.  Later Sanguinius arrives and he's made the new Emperor in this little pet project.  A lot of other stuff happens and, finally, they find out Terra was perfectly fine...and this whole Imperium Secundus was just a waste of everyone's time, then they all rush to assist in the Siege.

 

And, of course, the Ultramarines famously fail to make it in time.  There is a short novella that explains it was, again, the Word Bearers who successfully held up the Ultramarines, but the results speak for themselves.

 

 

+++ Now consider how the Dark (and Blood) Angels felt +++

 

 

If you were the Dark or Blood Angels there on Imperium Secundus, and you wonder if you hadn't gotten held up in Guilliman's pet project, maybe, just maybe, they could all have left for Terra sooner and prevented the Emperor's death.  There's no way to know, but there is probably some resentment towards Guilliman.  They don't necessarily think him a traitor, he has good intentions, but we all know what the road to hell is paved with.

 

Then after the Heresy, Guilliman's using his political clout to push the Second Founding and breaking up the Legions.  Again, he's so eager to force his ideas on how the Imperium should be (it's the only way to get stuff done, but it can be annoying).  Imagine once again you're one of those Dark Angels who was there on his Imperium Secundus, you're thinking "there he goes again."

 

Last time, the Lion was there to keep an eye on Guilliman.  Now he's absent, and I can see some Dark Angels who were there on Imperium Secundus figuring, now that Chaos Marines have been pushed back...they might strongly believe someone's gotta keep an eye on Guilliman.  These Dark Angels might take it upon themselves to, as you suggest, spy on him.

 

Now, they're not Luther's Fallen, in fact I'm suggesting they're ones that followed the Lion to Ultramar, thus they feel more strongly about Guilliman.  Having spent time there and probably learning about Guilliman's way of doing things (after all, he was giving the Lion all the info he needs to be his own Warmaster)...they'd actually be really good spies, knowing the Ultramarines' and their Successors' procedures.

 

I can imagine them hiding near Ultramar in the Galaxy's Eastern Fringe (there's nothing out there except Tyranids), on their own mission just to keep an eye on Guilliman.  For a long time it was pretty quiet because he was in stasis.  But as soon as he woke up, he's setting up his divided Imperium again due to the Great Rift, but to these Dark Angels, they're watching history repeat again, and they really didn't like what it lead to the last time.  And over the millennia, their perceptions of him might gone from he's a well-intentioned politician to he's an outright schemer, and this time, they're willing to take up arms to stop him going astray.

 

TL;DR - based on your ideas, I can imagine the ideal Dark Angels to spy on Guilliman are descended from those who actually were there on his Imperium Secundus and learned his ways, but most importantly, are motivated to keep an eye on him.  When he awoke and seemed to repeat the same mistakes of the past, they decide they must act.

 

Just my 2 cents.  This one is pretty personal, as the background involved the Lion directly involved with Guilliman's personal empire.

[Gederas]

I really wish GW had just said "hey, there are some updated new Space Marines Kits to play with, take it or leave it" so we wouldnt have to deal with this whole "primaris vs. firstborne" stuff for the next years.

It's getting close to the DA are traitor "joke" by now.

You know the saying: "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

 

GW didn't outright say that Primaris are the replacement Marines and that they're the properly scaled ones and how they're doing them, Instead making them their own unique units for now. And people are complaining (some with enough hostility towards them to make people outright quit)

 

But imagine if they did say "Hey, these are new Marines that are properly scaled. All your guys are old and not the correct size anymore. You're going to have to replace your entire collection". Imagine what would have been the community's response to that.

 

If you're (using the general "you" here, not in reference to any one person) telling me that it'd be better than the current reaction (or to be more specific: the vocal minority, because it only seems to be Dark Angels players who are still REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'ing over Primaris, everyone else has moved on for the most part), I've got a bridge in New York to sell you.

 

There's a reason why my Dark Angels are all black. And it's not just because I prefer it over green. It's to future-proof any eventuality of Primaris replacing Firstborn, as well  as my own aesthetics. My Firstborn (outside of the Bikers) are in GC/HH armour because of this.

 

I love the lore and aesthetics of the Dark Angels. But man, I hate what they've become. And the community's reaction to anything makes the Dark Angels seem like the Salamanders when it comes to friendliness.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Gederas

[clanfield]

the imperium secundus story fits very nicely even cypher traveling to earth with guilaman during the great rift love it so far .now where's gav thorpe when we need him. :P

 

 

aside from this it will affect every chapter if were fleshing out a possible narrative line to come out .