How to write chaos corruption/gods, need some advice.

[Shinros]

Been writing for some time, experimented recently with writing with an outline vs without. Sticking with an outline from now on. But I have one issue, I have trouble writing chaos in general. In the setting it's described to be absolutely terrifying, but I find difficulty in portraying that because most stories quickly shift to grim violence and the like to show it. But to me that's not really scary, chaos lore wise has become such a huge known quantity I think it has lost its terror, or perhaps I'm not seeing something? 

 

So I'm seeking advice for my next piece of work from those who may know more and may have been writing as well. I've also been reading books outside of warhammer to get me into the right mindset as well. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Shinros

[Lucerne]

What kind of Chaos?

[Shinros]

What kind of Chaos?

 

Sorry I should be more clear, talking about the chaos gods, chaos is meant to be the abyss that brings out the worse in people. I think it should be more insidious, more abstract considering information on chaos is tightly controlled. I think my issue is my meta knowledge shows the gods to be quite simple and that simplicity is focused on a ton in the books. For example, this is something I just recalled according to dark heresy bloodletters can lie extremely well in order to get people to fall to khorne. This isn't really ever shown, since most khorne daemons in books are simple raging creatures that just want to kill.

 

For example just saying the name of any god should have long reaching consequences considering their power but that is another thing rarely shown or done much with. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Shinros

[Lucerne]

Treat the gods as abstractions. Don't just use the brand name- or have the actual names have consequences when used.

 

A daemon is a concept, a collection of ideas that walks and talks and acts, but invoking it is fundamentally an unnatural act. In that it's breaking down the wall between the real and somewhere else.

 

Emphasize just how much of a crime against nature involving a daemon or an incursion is. Write about the side effects of it existing, how looking at one or listening to it breaks people without it even directly acting. It's not a red-skinned thing with a sword, it's a shape, a hole in the world and the screams of every murdered person that ever was and the taste of copper on the tongue. Walls bleeding, the feeling of hot furnace brass...

 

Play with the narrative. Have daemon speech be narration.

 

eg:

 

"What are you?" The man gasped.

 

I am the herald of the Hunt. I am the knife and the cut and the taste of hot blood on the tongue. I am the glory and the animal reek of sweat and blood and brass in the charnel pit. I am the horseman of the wild hunt, the headsman who brings the slaughter.

 

The creature did not speak. It had no tongue. It had no mouth. It was not there, yet it still spoke in a voice that was not a voice. A voice that was every voice, screaming at once.

 

Burn. Maim. Kill.

 

All around them, the cultists were butchering one other, with frantic, mindless zeal. The air was alive with furnace light. Hellish light. The reflected light of a city burning.

 

In other worlds, Chaos isn't just "funny creatures" and four wacky gods, in theory. It's the lie that is what Imperials call reality breaking down and people seeing far too much. You can talk to the dead and see the future. Up is down and down is up and it all blends together. Anything you want to do can happen- but it's all fundamentally a lie made by collective delusions.

 

In other words, focus on the fact that if Chaos is involved in any serious way, the "natural order of things" fundamentally does not apply. Chaos isn't scary for killing people. Anything in 40K can kill people. Chaos is fundamentally a breakdown of the assumptions that people hold in daily life.

 

If you look up the King in Yellow by chambers, or "the Tyrant star" from Dark Heresy, those are examples of what Chaos should be like.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Lucerne

[Shinros]

Treat the gods as abstractions. Don't just use the brand name- or have the actual names have consequences when used.

 

A daemon is a concept, a collection of ideas that walks and talks and acts, but invoking it is fundamentally an unnatural act. In that it's breaking down the wall between the real and somewhere else.

 

Emphasize just how much of a crime against nature involving a daemon or an incursion is. Write about the side effects of it existing, how looking at one or listening to it breaks people without it even directly acting. It's not a red-skinned thing with a sword, it's a shape, a hole in the world and the screams of every murdered person that ever was and the taste of copper on the tongue. Walls bleeding, the feeling of hot furnace brass...

 

Play with the narrative. Have daemon speech be narration.

 

eg:

 

"What are you?" The man gasped.

 

I am the herald of the Hunt. I am the knife and the cut and the taste of hot blood on the tongue. I am the glory and the animal reek of sweat and blood and brass in the charnel pit. I am the horseman of the wild hunt, the headsman who brings the slaughter.

 

The creature did not speak. It had no tongue. It had no mouth. It was not there, yet it still spoke in a voice that was not a voice. A voice that was every voice, screaming at once.

 

Burn. Maim. Kill.

 

All around them, the cultists were butchering one other, with frantic, mindless zeal. The air was alive with furnace light. Hellish light. The reflected light of a city burning.

 

In other worlds, Chaos isn't just "funny creatures" and four wacky gods, in theory. It's the lie that is what Imperials call reality breaking down and people seeing far too much. You can talk to the dead and see the future. Up is down and down is up and it all blends together. Anything you want to do can happen- but it's all fundamentally a lie made by collective delusions.

 

In other words, focus on the fact that if Chaos is involved in any serious way, the "natural order of things" fundamentally does not apply. Chaos isn't scary for killing people. Anything in 40K can kill people. Chaos is fundamentally a breakdown of the assumptions that people hold in daily life.

 

If you look up the King in Yellow by chambers, or "the Tyrant star" from Dark Heresy, those are examples of what Chaos should be like.

Thanks for the post! Looks like the King in Yellow is on the reading list. I will also take a look at dark heresy again. I think chaos should be more of what you described and I should push for that angle more in my writing, I think I should simply "throw out" what I know. Ignore the clearly defined lines and concepts, I have to be more abstract as you said. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Shinros

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

You might also want to consider pulling off a bait-and-switch for the more lore-familiar readers. Just like people in your story have assumptions that are broken down by the presence of a neverborn that is bleeding into reality and breaking the natural order of things, see if you can find clever ways to break down the assumptions that the readers have about demons. What about a Khornate demon that is very eloquent in its dealings with humans or a demon of Tzeentch that embodies violent change? What if the Slaneeshi demon that has invaded the material realm actually kind of seems to care about the people it has enthralled (and then of course you get to play around how a demon would express that it cares, because I have no doubt that that would be horribly wrong as well)?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I try to write Chaos and its acolytes, mortal and otherwise (Daemons), as of "alternate sanity" from an "alternate reality," e.g., what goes up doesn't have to come down the way things do in the Materium, but may go sideways because the Immaterium can provide sources of gravity other than that of the planet one is standing on. Contradictions impossible in the Materium, become possible in the Immaterium, e.g., a sorcerer creating "icy flames" that shine with "blazing darkness."

 

Behavior-wise, a "blue and orange morality" may help you impress upon your readers that a Chaos worshiper's moral code does not fit our own, but it's a trope I've yet to use in my stories, as it's difficult to pull off; if you make your characters act inconsistently and contradictory, you'll likely confuse readers, who'll then dismiss the characters as "loonies" that are impossible (for them) to relate to, and you as a lazy writer for failing to write relateable characters.

[Shinros]

I try to write Chaos and its acolytes, mortal and otherwise (Daemons), as of "alternate sanity" from an "alternate reality," e.g., what goes up doesn't have to come down the way things do in the Materium, but may go sideways because the Immaterium can provide sources of gravity other than that of the planet one is standing on. Contradictions impossible in the Materium, become possible in the Immaterium, e.g., a sorcerer creating "icy flames" that shine with "blazing darkness."

 

Behavior-wise, a "blue and orange morality" may help you impress upon your readers that a Chaos worshiper's moral code does not fit our own, but it's a trope I've yet to use in my stories, as it's difficult to pull off; if you make your characters act inconsistently and contradictory, you'll likely confuse readers, who'll then dismiss the characters as "loonies" that are impossible (for them) to relate to, and you as a lazy writer for failing to write relateable characters.

That is another issue I'm facing. Because in my eyes 40k has no heroes. When it comes to blue and orange such characters also need to make sense, a great example of such morality is the Daedra from elder scrolls. Constantly chaos characters come off as insane in most novels, or perhaps even edgy I think. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Shinros

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Yeah, I don't think going chaotic neutral with the demons is a good idea. They are chaotic in our eyes, but I do think that there is a clear sense or code that they adhere to, it is just so weird and odd to us that it doesn't seem like it. Like Khornate demons would never ever do anything to backstab you or act deviously, but I can see a demon of Khorne first joining one side of the conflict and then switching sides to ensure the blood flows as long as possible and that only the strongest survive. However, from the point of view of the cultist who summoned it to help his cause that would still very much seem like a betrayal most foul and I could see him cursing that demon as a backstabbing betrayer if he survived the conflict. From the point of view of the demon I could see it being somewhat puzzled by these accusations (if it is intelligent enough to recognize them) as it had just acted exactly as its nature decreed: to further shed blood and collect skulls.

 

Further developing this idea it could be an interesting idea to look into the warcry warbands, who are all kind of serving the four chaos gods that we know and hate, but they are so low on the ladder of knowledge that they don't even know the names of the deities they serve and instead worship aspects like the Great Gatherer. I would imagine that most cultists in Warhammer 40k are very much in the same position and it could be an interesting story where someone who worships an aspect of say, Khorne, and who is thus completely taken by surprise that the servant of the Supreme Tactician that he called forth through ritual and sacrifice is instead a bloodthirsty beast that starts immediately devouring everything in sight in an effort to spill blood.

[Shinros]

Yeah, I don't think going chaotic neutral with the demons is a good idea. They are chaotic in our eyes, but I do think that there is a clear sense or code that they adhere to, it is just so weird and odd to us that it doesn't seem like it. Like Khornate demons would never ever do anything to backstab you or act deviously, but I can see a demon of Khorne first joining one side of the conflict and then switching sides to ensure the blood flows as long as possible and that only the strongest survive. However, from the point of view of the cultist who summoned it to help his cause that would still very much seem like a betrayal most foul and I could see him cursing that demon as a backstabbing betrayer if he survived the conflict. From the point of view of the demon I could see it being somewhat puzzled by these accusations (if it is intelligent enough to recognize them) as it had just acted exactly as its nature decreed: to further shed blood and collect skulls.

 

Further developing this idea it could be an interesting idea to look into the warcry warbands, who are all kind of serving the four chaos gods that we know and hate, but they are so low on the ladder of knowledge that they don't even know the names of the deities they serve and instead worship aspects like the Great Gatherer. I would imagine that most cultists in Warhammer 40k are very much in the same position and it could be an interesting story where someone who worships an aspect of say, Khorne, and who is thus completely taken by surprise that the servant of the Supreme Tactician that he called forth through ritual and sacrifice is instead a bloodthirsty beast that starts immediately devouring everything in sight in an effort to spill blood.

True enough, looking at chaos through a smaller cult lens would be far more interesting and add that strange terror to it. I have been an advocate of GW expanding their Chaos range beyond what we have now in 40k. It's not just our lovable spiky boys.  

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You might also look for inspiration from the depictions of the chaos gods in the old warhammer fantasy realm. Khorne wasn't just a god of bloodshed, but also of honor. He didn't just want bloodshed, he wanted feats of honor, things that would bring glory to him through his chosen. Nurgle istn;t just about pestilence, but also rebirth. That which rots also gives rise to new life. The felled rotting tree is fertile ground for fungus and mold. Certain parasites must drive a creature insane to get to fertile ground to breed (toxoplasmosis is an example, infects rats and drives them to suicide themselves by cat, so the parasite can breed in the cat's gut). Tzeentch is not only the god of change but also hope. Change breeds hope for better things, and often that leads to despair, which leads to change which leads back to hope. Slaanesh is... weird. The God of Excess, but also creativity. Indulging creativity leads to pleasure, which leads to excess as you "chase the dragon".

 

So try experimenting with the dualities of the particular chaos gods, so that you can add some contradiction to them.

[MegaVolt87]

You would have an easier time writing about chaos from a mortal perspective than an Astartes. In the 3rd ed CSM dex, good short about mortals witnssing Abaddon and the BL in action etc. Marines are not really going to be as freaked out in an event horizon experience compared to a normal human. Limited understanding and psychological distress as a result will have more depth. Cap it off with an ending from a Heretic Astartes perspective to give it context.

[Shinros]

You would have an easier time writing about chaos from a mortal perspective than an Astartes. In the 3rd ed CSM dex, good short about mortals witnssing Abaddon and the BL in action etc. Marines are not really going to be as freaked out in an event horizon experience compared to a normal human. Limited understanding and psychological distress as a result will have more depth. Cap it off with an ending from a Heretic Astartes perspective to give it context.

But wouldn't say the reason why heretic Astartes don't have "they shall know no fear" because they have seen that event horizon? It's why they know fear, they looked into the abyss and saw something greater, more terrifying than them. 

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

You would have an easier time writing about chaos from a mortal perspective than an Astartes. In the 3rd ed CSM dex, good short about mortals witnssing Abaddon and the BL in action etc. Marines are not really going to be as freaked out in an event horizon experience compared to a normal human. Limited understanding and psychological distress as a result will have more depth. Cap it off with an ending from a Heretic Astartes perspective to give it context.

But wouldn't say the reason why heretic Astartes don't have "they shall know no fear" because they have seen that event horizon? It's why they know fear, they looked into the abyss and saw something greater, more terrifying than them. 

 

 

That is an interesting reading, but I personally read their absence of ATSKNF more as the result of the CSM fighting for themselves instead of being hypno-conditioned to fight for and sacrifice everything to the Imperium and thus humanity. If you dedicate yourself (or you are hypnotized to dedicate yourself) completely to an ideal that has been there before you and will be there after you are gone, it is easier to feel no fear when considering your impending death. It is much harder to feel serene if you are only in it for yourself and for your own glory / pleasure / whatever else is motivating an individual CSM.