Exploring melee (8th going into 9th)

[Mobius0288]

We've talked about melee many different threads and wanted to bring them to a more central place, especially with 9th edition around the corning having some small changes (like overwatch only being a CP, the defender starting first after charges and terrain interactions).

 

So what are some good ways to take advantage? SIA will always be our biggest strength but we also have mission tactics to help us as well -we don't need to tote around an LT everywhere we go, just pre-select your battlefield role and bring along the tome of ectoclades for extra measure. We also received litanies from the last update which give us good stuff in shooting, melee and mortal wound protection.

 

Melee considerations:

- Chaplains (Exhortation of Rage, Canticle of Hate and Mantra of Strength)

- Chaplain Dreadnought

- Smash Captain

- Librarian powers (Veil of Time and Might from Beyond)

- Vanguard Veterans

- Bikers

- Veterans

- Good Squad (Intercessors and/or Aggressors with power fists)

- Stratagems:

  -- Hammer of Wrath (Jump pack infantry causing mortal wounds on charge)

  -- Only in Death does Duty End (Characters fight again on death)

  -- Veteran Fury (Termies get +1 to hit)

  -- Gene Wrought Might (Primaris auto-hit and wound on 6's)

- Shock Assault (+1 melee on charge, if charged and heroic intervention)

- Combat Doctrines (assault phases specifically.. +1 AP)

 

Delivery methods:

- Deep strike

- Move up the board

- Transport

  -- Drop Pod

  -- Vehicles/Flyer

 

Deathwatch specific considerations:

- Beacon Angelis

- Watchmaster

- Castellan of the Vault

- Bane of Monstrosities

- Tome of the Ectoclades

- Heavy Thunder Hammers

- Stratagems:

  -- Adaptive Tactics (Change mission tactics)

  -- Clavis (mortal wounds to vehicles)

  -- Death to the Alien (exploding 6's to xenos armies)

  -- Doctrines (+1 to wound against a battlefield role... not transports)

  -- Honor Your Brothers (Fight again)

 

Easy reference listed above. How have you guys guys made the most of melee? While shooting is our strongest, not finding away to take advantage in melee when able is a waste of opportunity to damage. In fact I have often shoot and charge unless I don't have power weapons to deal with vehicles. If I can't kill it, I'm sure gonna try and prevent it from shooting if I can.

 

Blackstar + Vanguard. I have used this combo several times and to great success. Up to this point the Blackstar wasn't the ideal choice with -1 to hit while moving, but it has always been a fantastic delivery platform; especially since it can hold mixed teams. In my case, I tossed a unit of 5 vanguard vets (sometimes a Capt) and send them up the board for a turn 2 disembark and charge. That's a 3" disembark with a 12" move, plus the ability to charge. Most of the time I am able to maneuver around the screen and charge my intended target. I was almost able to kill Bobby G in a single turn with this tactic. Hammers are an ideal choice but understandable if you fear the Blackstar may not survive shooting in turn 1. Power fists are great for their cost, especially if you want to character hunt instead of trying to take down a vehicle. But if you are going for characters, you could also consider lightning claws and chainswords. The cheapest and still effective unit (IMO) would be a twin lightning claw Sgt, and give everyone else chainswords with storm shields. DO NOT forget melta-bombs! Stratagems to help: Doctrines, Decapitation, Death to the Alien, Hammer of Wrath, Honor Your Brothers. Supporting elements: Captain with JP, Libby with JP. You can attempt this with a regular veteran unit to similar effect, you just won't get the 12" move. Good if you want to build a more tanky/hybrid unit.

 

Chaplain Dreadnaught. Currently our best anti-everything melee monster. It's a character so hides behind units, can deep strike and can now cast litanies. Warlord traits can be given to this guy but not relics. In 8th he is an ideal pick when organizing double battalion lists, filling an HQ choice and anti-tank support. He is quite capable of being a hybrid (move, shoot and melee). If we stick to pure melee, it gets 4 attacks rerolling 1's for having double claws (storm bolters or heavy flamers to flavor)... 4 attacks at -3 AP and 3 dmg each. Great, now lets get the Castellan of the Vault trait so homie can have a 4 dmg claw instead. Great, now lets give this guy Mantra of Strength: +1 attack, str and dmg. By himself, we are now at 4 attacks, str 14, -3 AP and 4 dmg, rerolling 1's. Support and delivery are also important here. If you want some turn 1 tricky-ness, you'll need another chaplain w/ Exhortation of Rage and a dreadnought drop pod (realistically, probably another dop pod of troops supporting as well). Pre-position a chaplain and cast Exhortation of Rage, bring down the dreadnaught pod along side another pod with troops and a character. That character could even be a libby with might from beyond, veil of time or psychic fortress. Use the Beacon Angelis and bring that chaplain in range of the dreadnaught for a turn 1 7" charge. Turn 2 on he can take care of himself (damage-wise) with his own litany. The beauty of the drop pod tactic is not impacting your strategic reserves but a turn 2 charge can be done as well. EDIT: Deathwatch Chaplain Dreadnaughts do not have the proper wording in the white dwarf update to allow the new litanies at this time.

 

Mixed Kill Teams. This could go on forever so lets focus this. Biker and vanguard veterans are very useful when it comes to movement and charges - specifically, the bike has such a long base that plenty of models can be within 1" of a biker model...which can be withing 1" of an opponent unit. The bike itself can go 14" with vanguard vets traveling 12", giving them quite a threatening charge range. Pair with chaplain to cut that charge range, or you can rely on exploding (unmodified) 6's if you have enough melee weapons in the unit. Death to the Alien could also pair well with doctrine if you want to throw some serious number attacks. A Watchmaster would be huge if he was nearby. And, you can still keep this unit(s) fairly shooty with the veterans having storm bolters. You can add a termie to this combo but for me personally, he moves slower than the rest of the team and I usually don't get saturated with AP 0 attacks... 1 biker and 4 VVs have been best for me, point-wise.

 

A side question for folks: Do you think there are any 5-man vet unit loadouts to consider as we go to 9th? Remember, vehicles will no long have that movement penalty (razorbacks may seem some use once again) and blast weapons will have a minimum 3 shots against 6-man units.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Mobius0288

[ashc]

I just have one or two additions

 

- in ninth, strategic reserves may be another delivery option, coming on from a board edge mid-battle.

 

- The Corvus Blackstar really benefits from many of the ninth ed changes - improvements to shooting for vehicles, flyer freedom, so it has potential to be a supreme delivery option.

 

- for Deathwatch, mixed capability units could be really good - try to milk the benefits of our SIA (keep those boltguns and storm bolters on your models) whilst also benefitting what we can do in melee. That ties in with what you said regarding vanguard and bikes in kill teams as well.

 

- practically all dreadnoughts got a boost for being able to fire even in engagement range, that isn't strictly melee but woah it just became harder to tie up our Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts.

 

- possible access to indomitus boxed set units? Assault intercessors, bladeguard veterans, and the outriders can all dish out a metric tonne of attacks.

 

- dedicated melee units like vanguard and bikes benefit greatly from the Overwatch changes, but you will probably want mutliple units charging in a turn to make it harder for your opponent to choose what will overwatch and what doesn't.

 

Just some ideas to throw about.

[Daynga-Zone]

I don’t focus too much on melee offensively as DW. In mixed kill teams I would often deep strike in close to two enemy units, shoot at the further one and charge the closer (assuming they are weak in melee) and then use vanguard vets or inceptors to get an easy tri-point. This lets you protect your own unit and then still fall back and shoot.

 

With the new stratagem this isn’t as advantageous but it does cost the enemy a lot of CP.

 

For 9th I’m looking into the new bikers, they’ll have a good number of SIA shots and can charge across the board when needed. Maybe blade guard as well depending on their cost they’d make great tanks for intercessors and inceptors. The minimum 3 blast shots against a unit of 6-10 isn’t a big enough jump on the average to make me stop using 10 man mixed kill teams.

[Boyadventurer]

I wonder what will happen to the reiver grenades now? I only took some in a 1k campaign we started just before lockdown (so the Death Guard player wins by default I guess?). If they still have a good benefit, they may be more worthwhile now. We know we can deep strike closer than 9" within our own zone. It's a lot easier for us to throw in a reiver here or there for the grenade and not be tied down to a whole unit of them. Especially if our ideas of a phobos kill team comes to fruition and we can have them infiltrated.

Chaplains are so big now. Especially with that lovely doppleCassius in Indomitus just begging for a silver shoulderpad.

 

Though there's still nothing that gives our Chaplain dreads litanies (the Imperial Armour still doesn't give it to non-Codex chapters), did I miss something?

[Mobius0288]

 

Though there's still nothing that gives our Chaplain dreads litanies (the Imperial Armour still doesn't give it to non-Codex chapters), did I miss something?

Good call. Someone posted somewhere else and got me excited. The white dwarf doesn't call out the proper keywords to enable litanies on the chaplain dread. I'll strike it out in the meantime so no one gets confused.

[Daynga-Zone]

If DW Chaplains end up getting litanies, they’re an incredible unit for us in a lineup of lackluster HQs. I also think they’re at a very high risk of going into legends with the FW update.

 

If they don’t go to legends and do get litanies it’s probably one of the first things I’ll kitbash together in 9th.

[Mobius0288]

That's possible. I've also seen them pull stuff off their website and then reintroduce it down the road. It kind of felt like they were playing a sales tactic to trigger people to buy a "rare item that may not be available again." We'll see... it's not like the mold is gone, they just stopped producing and selling it.

 

- practically all dreadnoughts got a boost for being able to fire even in engagement range, that isn't strictly melee but woah it just became harder to tie up our Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts.

This is interesting because it brings those DCCW and gun versions back into the light as well. We could capitalize on relic dreadnaughts a bit more with their speed FNP, where as the mortis focuses on the double guns. The Kheres Assault cannons could see a little more use as well. If the Plasma Cannon gets blast, that may also see some use (necrons and elite infantry still despise them).

 

- dedicated melee units like vanguard and bikes benefit greatly from the Overwatch changes, but you will probably want mutliple units charging in a turn to make it harder for your opponent to choose what will overwatch and what doesn't.

I agree, which will make turn 1 charges quite tricky and may require a sacrifice in other areas of list building to pull off. I know I've done it with a couple Vet kill teams, bikers and vanguard Vet unit in the same list, but going into 9th... vehicles will likely be more prominent. Can you replace power weapons with power fists and still bring adequate anti-tank? It will be fun to figure out once we see the point adjustments. I suppose if you do it right, we could supplement some anti-tank with melee... at least better than what we could in 8th.

 

 

For 9th I’m looking into the new bikers, they’ll have a good number of SIA shots and can charge across the board when needed. Maybe blade guard as well depending on their cost they’d make great tanks for intercessors and inceptors. The minimum 3 blast shots against a unit of 6-10 isn’t a big enough jump on the average to make me stop using 10 man mixed kill teams.

I'm with ya, that whole box set will be pretty good. I love the current bikers and I know these guys will be better, tougher stand-ins. They even identified the front guns as being bolt rifles so we could see the same -1 AP.

[Mobius0288]

A little bit of theory crafting on this one...

 

Finding our best turn 2 deep strike charge. Doing this on turn 2 allows for much more precision, as you can hopefully create a hole or bait some units out of position. The unit(s) you choose can vary between mixed kill teams (good squad included), Reivers (bare with me), vanguard vets or termies... it won't matter in terms of making the charge as it will be the same for whatever you choose. In the end it will be about point cost for the maneuver and the weapons you equip. Also the CP cost to setup and perform the maneuver.

 

Set up:

- Chaplain successfully getting off Canticle of Hate (Jump pack possibly, for chasing things down)

- Deep striking character with Beacon Angelis (Jump pack/termie saves you a CP)

- Chosen unit(s) already in deep strike (Termies, vanguard vets and reivers save you CP)

 

x1 Twin Lightning Claw (Sgt)

x2 Thunder Hammer, pistols

x1 Thunder Hammer, shield

x3 Storm Shield, pistols

x1 Double chainsword

x1 Chainsword, Storm Shield

x1 Chainsword, pistol

 

Vanguard deep strike and charge. A 10-man unit of vanguard vets and an accompanying Captain are high up ready to make landfall. Their equipment determines the target (always important). For arguments sake, I used my WYSIWYG unit. I deep strike turn 2, auspex scan was negligible or wasn't used and my chaplain was beacon'd over. Get some pistol shots off, unable to use grenades and now we're ready to charge. We now have a 7" charge to pull off instead of 9", with the ability to reroll with a CP if need be. We have several options to beef this up: Honour Your Brothers (3 CP) to fight again, Hammer of Wrath (1 CP) to get mortal wounds on the charge and choice of Doctrine (2 CP) if you have find your weapons under strength. Death to the Alien if you happen to be fighting Xenos!! The character you bring with will be able to support as well - The Captain for example, can usually take care of himself if you need to go after a different target but also offers the reroll 1's. If you take a libby, you could capitalize on might of heroes or veil of time. And don't forget you have the chaplain you beacon'd over as well.

 

Other versions:

- Termies would be able to use Veteran Fury instead of Hammer of Wrath, good melee options and able to bring CMLs; probably the most expensive unit to use but you will have the 2+ saves

- Reivers are probably the cheapest choice due to a lack of weapons, point drop and 2W models; combat knifes and guns of choice; using Doctrines, Gene Wrought Might and Death to the Alien as appropriate

- Mixed Kill Teams are the most flexible choice with weapon choices and model inclusion, still not as expensive as a dedicated termie unit; CP required to put in teleportarium.

 

Specific considerations:

- Heavy Thunder Hammers on kill teams or vanguard vets, can stack with both Doctrine and Death to the Alien (-1 to hit, can't proc)

- Taking lots of chainswords or lightning claws for the sheer number of attacks also makes Doctrine and Death to the Alien valuable against a variety of units

Edited June 25, 2020 by Mobius0288

[Qui-Gon]

You can never benefit from Death to the Alien on a model that has a weapon that has a -1 to hit because you can never roll a 6+ with a -1 to hit. If the rule was "unmodified 6 to hit" that'd be different. The joy of having an out of date codex design.

[Xisor]

If DW Chaplains end up getting litanies, they’re an incredible unit for us in a lineup of lackluster HQs. I also think they’re at a very high risk of going into legends with the FW update.

 

If they don’t go to legends and do get litanies it’s probably one of the first things I’ll kitbash together in 9th.

Depending on how 9th unfolds, it might be an awkward situation for me too.

 

Since the the limitation on mixing keywords came in, I've really struggled to make my Deathwatch Vanguard Emeritus kill team work - all Dreadnoughts is just tough, damn it - especially when things like Ironclads, Librarian-Dreads and Wulf-shield Venerables aren't technically available to the Deathwatch in the first place.

 

Given the nature of Deathwatch, I still find it shame that it's not one of the few places you can include some of the odder models and possibilities.

 

(And sure - even accepting that - the odd possibilities for Dreadnoughts probably aren't the highest priority, all told, but whatever. You're not my Watch Master.)

 

---

 

Given the constraints for 9th Ed, and some of the known benefits, I wonder if the nearly-all-dread team might not still be sort of effective.

 

Some HQ to take up space, then a pile of Dreadnoughts of various types supporting a few Killteams going purely after specific troop-needing objectives.

[Daynga-Zone]

It’s another FW choice technically, so we’ll have to see what happens with their books, but the siege dreadnought is basically an ironclad that cant take a heavy bolter (which with the # of bolters I usually take for SIA isn’t a loss at all to me). It’s also in heavy support instead of elites so if relic tax is still a thing you can use it to unlock a leviathan.

 

Relating to the thread and melee I’m really leaning hard towards a massive dreadstar controlling mid board. A redemptor or two, leviathan and siege dreadnought put out a ton of hurt in shooting and can crush anything that gets too close. The kill teams can then DS and fight proxy battles on the edges for objectives.