Power Level, 9th Edition and Granularity

[Schlitzaf]

Power Level:

Now as a quick trivia. Power Level currently calculated as: ((Chassis+Cheapest Upgrade)+(Chassis+Most Expensive))/(2) (taking average) then divided by 20 (so really divide by 40)

 

So what it means is that units do “pay” for upgrades, just they pay for it in a weird fashion. Sense that Devi Sgt is most likelt not taking a THammer or a Power Sword.

 

Also why the idea that units in power level don’t actually “pay” for upgrades is false. They do factor in, just get factored in weirdly. Now that said if as rumors claim, power level in this edition being modified to to above formula being /10 for more granularity (and GW has said in stream they were gonna give more granularity to power levels).

 

1) What does everything think of that adding of granularity? Does it defeat intended purpose of being easy quickly made points for pick up games. Should big point upgrades (20ish) be given power level despite already being calculated in the base formula?

 

2) Should the formula itself be changed?

 

3) And that formula (or actual one) should it be published to make Power Level Only Units be able to Fan Match Play Points?

Edited June 29, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Rik Lightstar]

They've confirmed that 500 points is approximately 25 power level, so it's still a twentieth roughly.

 

Rik

[ThePenitentOne]

I don't think how they calculate PL is the same thing as not paying for upgrades.

 

If 10 Drukhari Kabalites with 3 blasters, a dark lance, a power sword and phantasm launcher costs the same as 10 Kabalites with no upgrades, then upgrades are free regardless of how PL is calculated.

 

I get that you are saying that costs of units relative to each other do factor the potentiality for powerful upgrades into the equation, I just don't think that anyone who ever talked about upgrades being free was talking about the relativity between different units. I think they were talking about the fact that no units pay PL for any of the upgrades they take.

 

Meaning if you don't have the models to optimize your upgrades and your opponent does, the two of you could be playing the exact same army in model count and PL, yet the guy who sprang for all the model upgrades could have 500 or more POINTS worth of extra stuff on the table, but still have the same PL.

 

Until upgrades have a PL cost, any notion of granularity in PL is a conceptual non starter, because the Drukari above with 6 upgrades is more powerful than the squad without, and therefore should cost more. Fix that, and you'll make a step toward granularity; changing the way you calculate PL isn't going to do it.

 

Now for the record, I've gotten accustomed to PL, because I want to play Crusade, and it's a PL based variant. But when I play PL, I'm going to bring every free upgrade I can get, because I assume my opponents will too. If both opponents bring max upgrades, or if both bring minimum upgrades, all other things being equal, you'll have a fair game. If one brings minimum upgrades and the other brings max, the minimum guy is getting curb stomped every time, and I'd rather be the guy doing the stomping.

 

PS- Maximum upgrades is awesome for sisters! Simulacra and cherubs for everyone is HUGE! For those of you who don't know sisters, it basically means almost every unit in the game starts with a Miracle Die, and that almost every unit can perform an act of faith every phase, even if another unit has already done so. It is a huge advantage- probably a bigger advantage than any of the actual weapon upgrades available.

Edited June 28, 2020 by ThePenitentOne

[MegaVolt87]

Just enforce WYSIWYG, cuts down on the obnoxiousness on the bling upgrades by forcing people to use what they actually have. Unless you are extremely unlucky and have a game against someone like myself who only mains one faction and has a collection large enough to easily meet WYSIWYG requirements, then you are out of luck with your limited one and done army. I would have PL drop some for base units, then 1 PL per weapon swap from stock unit loadouts. So, your combi plasma champ, 2 rotor cannons on a CSM squad would be an additional +3 PL to the unit. 

[Schlitzaf]

I don't think how they calculate PL is the same thing as not paying for upgrades.

 

If 10 Drukhari Kabalites with 3 blasters, a dark lance, a power sword and phantasm launcher costs the same as 10 Kabalites with no upgrades, then upgrades are free regardless of how PL is calculated.

 

I get that you are saying that costs of units relative to each other do factor the potentiality for powerful upgrades into the equation, I just don't think that anyone who ever talked about upgrades being free was talking about the relativity between different units. I think they were talking about the fact that no units pay PL for any of the upgrades they take.

 

Meaning if you don't have the models to optimize your upgrades and your opponent does, the two of you could be playing the exact same army in model count and PL, yet the guy who sprang for all the model upgrades could have 500 or more POINTS worth of extra stuff on the table, but still have the same PL.

 

Until upgrades have a PL cost, any notion of granularity in PL is a conceptual non starter, because the Drukari above with 6 upgrades is more powerful than the squad without, and therefore should cost more. Fix that, and you'll make a step toward granularity; changing the way you calculate PL isn't going to do it.

 

Now for the record, I've gotten accustomed to PL, because I want to play Crusade, and it's a PL based variant. But when I play PL, I'm going to bring every free upgrade I can get, because I assume my opponents will too. If both opponents bring max upgrades, or if both bring minimum upgrades, all other things being equal, you'll have a fair game. If one brings minimum upgrades and the other brings max, the minimum guy is getting curb stomped every time, and I'd rather be the guy doing the stomping.

 

PS- Maximum upgrades is awesome for sisters! Simulacra and cherubs for everyone is HUGE! For those of you who don't know sisters, it basically means almost every unit in the game starts with a Miracle Die, and that almost every unit can perform an act of faith every phase, even if another unit has already done so. It is a huge advantage- probably a bigger advantage than any of the actual weapon upgrades available.

That the point those upgrades are taken Pentient. Just that “Most” Expensive upgrades are not actually good choices. Multi-Melta is generally worse than Heavy Bokter in BSS squad. Your Surperior is calculated as having (or Eviscerator + CombiNelta + Chassis then plus Chain+Bolt+chassis then divide 2 then again by 20 (so whole thing is divide by 40) while you’d likelt actialky be taking something like a Power Maul. Infact Power Level assumes your taking all optional upgrades like cherub or simalacrum. Edited June 29, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Halandaar]

That the point those upgrades are taken Pentient. Just that “Most” Expensive upgrades are not actually good choices. Multi-Melta is generally worse than Heavy Bokter in BSS squad. Your Surperior is calculated as having (or Eviscerator + CombiNelta + Chassis then plus Chain+Bolt+chassis then divide 2 then again by 20 (so whole thing is divide by 40) while you’d likelt actialky be taking something like a Power Maul. Infact Power Level assumes your taking all optional upgrades like cherub or simalacrum.

 

Right, but it doesn't matter, because the gap in actual power between a unit with no upgrades and a unit with max upgrades is the same regardless of whether the PL is calculated on the base cost of the unit, or the average cost of upgrades.

 

When assuming the base PL cost is calculated on the value of bodies only:

Battle Sister Squad Power Cost   (4) 

Actual Power with No Upgrades   (4)

Actual Power with Max Upgrades (8)

-------------------------------

Difference in Power (4)

 

 

When assuming the base PL cost is calculated using the average of upgrade costs:

Battle Sister Squad Power Cost   (4) 

Actual Power with No Upgrades   (2)

Actual Power with Max Upgrades (6)

-------------------------------

Difference in Power (4)

[Schlitzaf]

Huh...?

The calculation is

Is the average of (Chassis + Cheapest Upgrades) + (Chassis + Most Expensive Upgrades) then divide by 20. The no upgrade/naked units are never calculated for power level unless the unit cheapest upgrade is “free”. Even then most of non-character units power level often are calculated as using “cheapest” not upgrade. A fantastic example is most space marine veterans are costed in power level what is roughly 30-35 points a model.

[nanosquid]

You're missing the point entirely. When using power level the cost of a unit with no extra options is the same as one with all the options. We are not comparing the cost of the unit to other units, we are comparing one unit to itself.

[Schlitzaf]

You're missing the point entirely. When using power level the cost of a unit with no extra options is the same as one with all the options. We are not comparing the cost of the unit to other units, we are comparing one unit to itself.

Except argument against power level is that a unit like Tacticals is under “pointed” compared to a squad of Necron Warriors. Because Tacticals get “free” upgrades.

[nanosquid]

 

You're missing the point entirely. When using power level the cost of a unit with no extra options is the same as one with all the options. We are not comparing the cost of the unit to other units, we are comparing one unit to itself.

Except argument against power level is that a unit like Tacticals is under “pointed” compared to a squad of Necron Warriors. Because Tacticals get “free” upgrades.

Taking an average of something means that the high end is inherently going to be more effective/valuable than the low end. You're taking the average of a marine squad, let's say 1.5 is the number for example, and setting that equal to a necron warrior squad at 1.5. But in actuality you can bring that marine squad with it's max power, so it's not really 1.5 vs 1.5, but 2 vs 1.5.

 

The average of the value of wargear options is completely irrelevant if I'm going to ignore all the less powerful options (which, because of a game design concept called Dominant Strategy, I always will).

[Schlitzaf]

Except you won’t, points cost is not always same as effectiveness. A classic/an easy example is SM Sgt is for power level high end for the average is treated as taking a Thunder Hammer + MostExpensive Range.

 

When its generally better to take a power sword or cheaper power weapon. Another case is that tacticals want to be mobile, so taking HoF like Heavy Bolters or GravCannon is preferred over more expensive options like Lascannons or Multi-Melta.

 

Or the case of Predators. TriLas might be most expensive but best variant might be PredAuto+DbL Las variation. And if you go max upgrade on everything you will skew yourself to anti-tank because that how GW calculates points.

[BluejayJunior]

If you thinking this intently about Power Level, then PL isn't for you. If it bothers you, use points. Both are valid ways to build armies. It just depends on the people and groups which is preferred. 

People who enjoy PL don't care about all this minutiae and aren't generally trying to game it to get the best upgrades. They just want to play with the models they have and not worry about which upgrades are most cost-effective or worth the points. 

[Schlitzaf]

If you thinking this intently about Power Level, then PL isn't for you. If it bothers you, use points. Both are valid ways to build armies. It just depends on the people and groups which is preferred.

People who enjoy PL don't care about all this minutiae and aren't generally trying to game it to get the best upgrades. They just want to play with the models they have and not worry about which upgrades are most cost-effective or worth the points.

Talking to me or other guy? I actually generally play with points but I like Power Level for thoss PUG 1k or otherwisss games where I don’t have a list premade.

 

Power Level works in that gives you what is ultimately roughly the average value of the squad loadout. And I think it gets a had rap because people whom think that it doesn’t calculate the value of upgrades with regards to the stated power level when it actually does.

 

Also this thread was more so if GW should reduce the formula go he divide by 10 instead of 20 for more variance.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Also this thread was more so if GW should reduce the formula go he divide by 10 instead of 20 for more variance.

 

Honestly, variance in a flawed system still doesn't do a lot of good.

PL is still based on points (which aren't accurate) and then gives a rough estimate on what that unit could do regardless of what you actually do with it.

So even if it wasn't divided at all, it's still points in far less accurate.

The further apart the max upgrade and the cheapest loadout are, the less PL represents the unit.

 

It's an average and if you say the average age of customers in this restaurant is 35 and you have Ms. Hastings and the Little Fireside Weebalos at one table and the Iowa 1950s Senior Biker Club at the other, that 35 doesn't do you any good.

'cause if you'd pit them in a football match against actual 35 year olds, they'd still lose (well, it may depend on the Bikers playing a fair game or not).

 

To me, it seems no matter if /10, /20 or /8,7, PL is still just something to make list-building easier for beginners or in a pinch and it shouldn't have any bearing on the game once you've got the basics down.

That is not to say that I'm giving you any crap over using it in pickup games - it's great if you want to get down to business quickly!

I'm just saying that 1) you might end up with a huge points difference (Last year, I had a game with same PL but, as it turned out later, around 130 points difference.) and 2) anything that has a variance of +/ - 100pts easily should not govern the cost of putting units in reserve in a Matched Play game.