9e points leaks: Winners and losers (Primaris)

[Nalim]

So, I made a list comparing the points costs of Primaris units between 8th and 9th edition (based on the leaked pictures today). Notice that some units I couldn't price correctly without more information (Impulsor, Reivers) are missing:

 

 

Some interesting finds:

• Elite units generally got huge price increases. That's either a stealth nerf to Marines or GW understood (correctly) that Elite Slots are (after troops) the "cheapest" ones. Flamer Invictor +22%, Autocannon Invictor +18%, Redemptor +15/16% based on loadout, Flamer Aggressors +14%, Dakka Aggressors +22% (!). I see Space Marine players trying to avoid using Elites as much as possible in the future.
• Plasma Inceptors might finally get useable (-15%), Dakka Inceptors are still great (-2%).
• Sniper Eliminators got the shaft (+17%), Las Eliminators might just have gotten competetive (-6%). However, I priced the Camo Cloak at 0 points for this, if the Camo Cloak is 3 points, it's +29%/+3%.
• Repulsor Excecutioner got hit harder (+13% with "best" loadout") than normal Repulsor (+8% with "best" loadout). The big question mark here is Power of the Machine spirit.
• Intercessors suffer (+18%), while Incursors (+10%) and Infiltrators (+9%) get comparatively better.
• Suppressors got an average price increase (+10%).

Side notes:

• At 40 points the new Eradicators seem to be a no-brainer.
• At 45 points, the new bikes will have a tough time competing with Dakka (40 points) and Plasma (50 points) Inceptors.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Nalim

[Riddlesworth]

Bikes vs dakkaceptors is dependent on what you want the unit to do. The bikes will be better in combat (18 attacks vs 12 on the charge. Possibly at better ap), are slightly faster, have 3 more wounds at the same toughness. The inceptors have 18 S5 shots vs 12 S4.

 

The points increase on infiltrators is unexpected but on smaller tables with more emphasis on deployment shenanigans, infiltrators increase in value.

 

The eradicator cost is very competitive. Ravenguard especially are going to enjoy them.

 

Plasma inceptors at 150 is.....really really good. Likewise hellblasters staying flat is also nice, though they both still need babysitters. Dark angel inceptors are terrifying and reasonably priced

 

My 2000 point list became 2216. But as I dont need to run a brigade to get a wealth of command points anymore, I can drop a troops choice or two.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[phoenix01]

Well, I had a 2000 point list, looks like I'll need to trim it.

[Nalim]

Well, I had a 2000 point list, looks like I'll need to trim it.

These points change juggle internal balance around so much that I'll have to completely re-think my lists. If these turn out to be true, I'll most likely base my army around a core of 1x6 Dakka Inceptors (combat-squaded to 2x3) and 2x6 Plasma Inceptors (combat-squaded to 4x3). Their main draw is that they are very competetively priced and you can sink a lot of points in just one slot. My first idea would be something like this:

 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Side notes:

• At 40 points the new Eradicators seem to be a no-brainer.
• At 45 points, the new bikes will have a tough time competing with Dakka (40 points) and Plasma (50 points) Inceptors.

 

9 bikes with 5+++ and 4++ in first round and then first turn charge? 

Or 3++ 5+++ if not charged for a Black Templars unit? Seems very tough.

[Riddlesworth]

My first idea would be something like this:

 

I really like that list other than overcharging the plasma inceptors makes me super sad every time I do it without a buffer nearby.

 

I've been really enjoying whirlwind of rage and bolter fusilades as a chapter tactic combo, so 2 suppressor units and an eliminator unit are gone in favour of two outrider units. 15-16 hits on the charge with no buff support is heinous

 

I may sacrifice intercessors to get under 2000 points to because incursors will become my go to troops choice with those points costs

 

Something like:

Phobos libby, phobos lt, primaris chaplain

3x5 incursors, 1x5 infiltrators

1x6 bolter aggressors, 1x primaris apothecary, 2x invictor warsuit,

1x5 bolter inceptors, 2x3 outriders

2x3 eliminators

 

Tanks get drowned in dice...so do infantry

Edited July 1, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Nalim]

9 bikes with 5+++ and 4++ in first round and then first turn charge? 

 

Or 3++ 5+++ if not charged for a Black Templars unit? Seems very tough.

 

I guess it's dependent on chapter. For Ultras I don't see to much first-turn charging going on. I'd rather have six S5 AP-1 shots with M10 and 18 range (with rerolls) than the melee attacks the bikes provide (without rerolls). It might be useful for some builds, but for my playstyle I just don't their appeal with my playstyle in mind.

[Riddlesworth]

I guess it's dependent on chapter. For Ultras I don't see to much first-turn charging going on. I'd rather have six S5 AP-1 shots with M10 and 18 range (with rerolls) than the melee attacks the bikes provide (without rerolls). It might be useful for some builds, but for my playstyle I just don't their appeal with my playstyle in mind.

White scars, blood Angel's, space wolves, successors running whirlwind of rage I can see all enjoying bikes over inceptors.

[Medjugorje]

White Scars are the strongest but have problems if they dont have first turn. 

[Disruptor_fe404]

Invictors are 165 base - I suspect you forgot they have fragstorm grenade launchers. It's worth pointing out that we are all assuming the Invictor fist is free as well, though I'd say it's a safe assumption given what we know.

[CCE1981]

Have you noticed that most numbers come out to end in 5 or 0?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Plasma Inceptors for Ultramarines have always been fantastic at what they do. To say they might be worth it now does them a disservice.

[Malakithe]

The bikes will be no brainers for WS and DA for sure even at 45pts. All depends on the keyword support they get

[Ishagu]

Bikes and Assault Intercessors aren't the best fit for Ultras, but the Bladeguard and Eradicators are great.

[Volt]

Bikes are meh for Dark Angels because it's just more S4 spam which Space Marines already had in spades. Chunky units yes, but there's no real reason to not opt for vanilla bikes or black knights because it's the plasma spam that makes bikes good, not the bolters. Inceptors also are still superior to primaris bikes because of their ability to pack their miniature plasma cannons, which benefit heavily from WOTDA strat use. Certainly more reliable options than Hellblasters, who I think are the real losers besides Reivers/AI. Hellblasters have firepower but they're so brittle compared to Eliminators and Eradicators, so why bother.

[Alcyon]

Note that Plasma always kills on unmodified rolls of 1 now, so that's why I think Inceptors and Hellblasters got cheaper or stayed the same; they can no longer be made safe with the Chaplain litany or however else people could do it. Captain/CM still work but it's more of a risk now, and losing a multi-wound model is always a pain. 

One other thing is that this list of stats (thanks for this Nalim!) is missing the costs for the other Hellblaster weapons - I think the Heavy versions have gone down in points so they might be much more viable now, keeping them back further to protect them. They could be more of a Devastator squad now. 

Las Fusil Eliminators were always a favourite of mine given the flat 3 damage, which I think is significantly better than Lascannons. The fact that they cost slightly less now is very exciting (assuming Camo Cloaks don't add to their points.)

[Nalim]

Invictors are 165 base - I suspect you forgot they have fragstorm grenade launchers. It's worth pointing out that we are all assuming the Invictor fist is free as well, though I'd say it's a safe assumption given what we know.

Well, you're right, that means price increases of 21,32% (Flamer) und 25,95% (Autocannon). Thank god I didn't buy a third one. These guys saw a lot of play, they'll deserve their break when 9th edition releases. At 165 points, they are not durable enough to take anymore imo. They never did a lot of damage (other units generally outperformed them due to being inside my buff bubbles), but at 131/136 points they were quite durable and (due to their deployment rules) a threat most opponents couldn't ignored. If both of them died turn one but the rest of my army was unharmed, they did their job. At 165 points, they're just too expensive to be used as disctraction carnifex. Guess I'll drop the hammer instead.

[Nalim]

One other thing is that this list of stats (thanks for this Nalim!) is missing the costs for the other Hellblaster weapons - I think the Heavy versions have gone down in points so they might be much more viable now, keeping them back further to protect them. They could be more of a Devastator squad now.

Yeah, didn't bother with the alternate loadouts (sorry), but all of them are 33 points now. However, I don't see a reason why I should take the heavy ones over Las Eliminators or the Rapid Fire ones over Plasmaceptors. Hellblasters are just to fragile for their points cost.

[chapter master 454]

 

Invictors are 165 base - I suspect you forgot they have fragstorm grenade launchers. It's worth pointing out that we are all assuming the Invictor fist is free as well, though I'd say it's a safe assumption given what we know.

Well, you're right, that means price increases of 21,32% (Flamer) und 25,95% (Autocannon). Thank god I didn't buy a third one. These guys saw a lot of play, they'll deserve their break when 9th edition releases. At 165 points, they are not durable enough to take anymore imo. They never did a lot of damage (other units generally outperformed them due to being inside my buff bubbles), but at 131/136 points they were quite durable and (due to their deployment rules) a threat most opponents couldn't ignored. If both of them died turn one but the rest of my army was unharmed, they did their job. At 165 points, they're just too expensive to be used as disctraction carnifex. Guess I'll drop the hammer instead.

 

 

What you did there, I see it.

 

Though for primaris overall, another factor relating to it will be how other factions get hit by points. However Intercessors going back to 20 points is a big yikes.

[Alcyon]

 

Though for primaris overall, another factor relating to it will be how other factions get hit by points. However Intercessors going back to 20 points is a big yikes.

 

It's all relative, right - Firstborn Marines went from 12pts to 15 and Scouts went from 11pts to 14. So Intercessors going from 17 to 20 makes no difference proportionally, they are still very cheap compared to OG marines for the points value. I think the real intrigue is where adjustments have been made that are disproportionate, as Nalim's chart shows, but we don't have comparisons with non-Primaris units in this chart.

[Alcyon]

 

Yeah, didn't bother with the alternate loadouts (sorry), but all of them are 33 points now. However, I don't see a reason why I should take the heavy ones over Las Eliminators or the Rapid Fire ones over Plasmaceptors. Hellblasters are just to fragile for their points cost.

 

 

Ah I see, they're all just "free"/baked into the cost now. I'd say the reason to take Hellblasters is two of them cost the same as a Plasmaceptor and are slightly better with -1 more AP and more consistent # of shots, plus, they're easier to buff with a Captain that can keep up with them and you aren't quite as upset losing a single 2W T4 model as you are a 3W T5 model to overcharge. If you are going to use CP to get them into range (i.e. Raven Guard's Infiltrate stratagem) and don't need an Impulsor, they are ok, but the fact that the Inceptors can deep strike and can move and shoot is so huge on top of their additional wound and T.

 

Maybe Inceptors are stronger if you have a mobile firebase involving units like Shrike, Hellblasters might still be ok if you can get them into cover while still in range.

[MegaVolt87]

Executioner is still dope, its old school strong FW vehicle rules in a main line codex change my mind. Taking two just is lighter on my wallet as I don't need as many infantry/ other primaris. 

[Riddlesworth]

@Alcyon

 

Plasma inceptors are 50 ppm now.

 

They are dope and I'd take them over hellblasters every time if I wanted plasma

[Alcyon]

I think the models look dopey TBQH but yeah, I mean they do seem undercosted in comparison to Hellblasters now. Too bad, I much prefer how they look. Primaris doesn't have a ton of options against MEQ/PrimarisEQ so Plasma makes sense. I guess Suppressor autocannons are solid too.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Alcyon

[Alcyon]

@Nalim I hope you don't mind, I linked here from the News and Rumours post on points leaks. I was wondering, would you be willing to share a copy of the Excel sheet? I'd love to add the firstborn options in to see if they changed proportional to the Primaris stuff.