Stormshields

[WickedJester1013]

When reading the storm shields that the Bladeguard have “..improve the bearers save characteristic by 1” why would this not buff the 4++ the model gets from the shield?

[BluejayJunior]

Because the save characteristic and the invuln save are different things. Improving the save characteristic is changing a stat on the datasheet. An invulnerable save is an ability that is unrelated to the stats on the datasheet.

[Bulwyf]

I'm hoping that is just rules for that unit and not a universal nerf to storm shields. We were already the worst army by far the entire run of 8th edition. Nothing like starting 9th by getting nerfed hard.

[Valerian]

I'm hoping that is just rules for that unit and not a universal nerf to storm shields. We were already the worst army by far the entire run of 8th edition. Nothing like starting 9th by getting nerfed hard.

It’ll be for all Storm Shields; if they wanted Bladeguard to have something different, they’d have given them a shield with a different name.

[Fang_Guard23]

It's a good idea, think about going up against ap-1 weapons in TDA, you have a 2+ armor save against that, and wolf guard in power armor that would help a lot. I would think that something would happen with shields on multiple levels, like combat shields. I think there is going to be an Errata or something the chapter approved to help adjust some of the weapon and gear profiles, because also chainswords are ap-1

[Arentius]

In fairness as it stands it works like a bastiladon in AoS, AP modifies the roll so I have a 1+ save and nat 1 always fail

However if I roll a 2+ ap-3 cannot reduce my save below one so my roll is treated as a 1 I succeed my save.

 

This has the potential to make our WG terminators Hella hard to shift off objectives

[Guest]

In fairness as it stands it works like a bastiladon in AoS, AP modifies the roll so I have a 1+ save and nat 1 always fail

However if I roll a 2+ ap-3 cannot reduce my save below one so my roll is treated as a 1 I succeed my save.

This has the potential to make our WG terminators Hella hard to shift off objectives

1's always fail a roll, there was a errata to AoS to stop this as well. Additionally people claiming to be testers say that not how it was played.

 

A termie with SS is 2+ (1+ really, but 1s always fail), hit with AP1 they still retain their 2+ save. However hit by AP2 they then have a 3+ save (termies are 2+, AP2 takes it to 4+, SS brings it down to 3+).

 

Wolf Lord's have very little reason to take SS, as they already get 3+/4++, unless you want that +1 to armor. There was a thought that maybe SW get their 3++ with SS as that is a unique feature to our army, the amount of SS we use. It goes off the idea Tau rely on Overwatch and got their overwatch for all units without stratagem. However that is a hope.

[Valerian]

 

A termie with SS is 2+ (1+ really, but 1s always fail), hit with AP1 they still retain their 2+ save. However hit by AP2 they then have a 3+ save (termies are 2+, AP2 takes it to 4+, SS brings it down to 3+).

 

 

That's not how it works according to the rules, JC, because AP does not change or affect the Armor Save in any way.  It very specifically states that it affects only the Armor Save roll.  So, AP-2, for example would take your roll of a 5 down to a 3, or your roll of a 3 down to a 1.  It does not change your 2+ Save to a 4+.

 

Edit:  Picture of the rule for how AP affects the Saving Throw Roll, and not the Save itself:

 

[Debauchery101]

I actually like the New Storm Shields. I run Character heavy Blood Angels and Space Wolves. They often push in solo to one shot heavy stuff or to tank a large horde unit. My characters mostly die from failed armor saves and not failed invuls. It coincides with mostly being shot from rapid fire weapons. Units they get attacked with that check my Invulnerable most likely are strong enough to kill in 2 or 3 fails and they brought enough in on a charge that there likely wasn't a chance for them to survive with a 3+ or 4+ Invulnerable save Edited July 5, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Valerian]

I actually like the New Storm Shields. 

 

They're definitely going to be more effective against mass volleys of AP0 attacks, and a net 0 change to AP-1 attacks.  They're only worse than before when facing AP-2 and higher.

[Guest]

 

 

A termie with SS is 2+ (1+ really, but 1s always fail), hit with AP1 they still retain their 2+ save. However hit by AP2 they then have a 3+ save (termies are 2+, AP2 takes it to 4+, SS brings it down to 3+).

 

 

That's not how it works according to the rules, JC, because AP does not change or affect the Armor Save in any way.  It very specifically states that it affects only the Armor Save roll.  So, AP-2, for example would take your roll of a 5 down to a 3, or your roll of a 3 down to a 1.  It does not change your 2+ Save to a 4+.

 

Edit:  Picture of the rule for how AP affects the Saving Throw Roll, and not the Save itself:

 

 

 

 

hmm I seem to have been playing wrong, then again I have only played 6 games in 8th. Anyways the playtesters were saying  that it doesn't increase your save from 2+  but increase your dice roll. So you can't have a 1+ save.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

 

 

 

A termie with SS is 2+ (1+ really, but 1s always fail), hit with AP1 they still retain their 2+ save. However hit by AP2 they then have a 3+ save (termies are 2+, AP2 takes it to 4+, SS brings it down to 3+).

 

That's not how it works according to the rules, JC, because AP does not change or affect the Armor Save in any way. It very specifically states that it affects only the Armor Save roll. So, AP-2, for example would take your roll of a 5 down to a 3, or your roll of a 3 down to a 1. It does not change your 2+ Save to a 4+.

 

Edit: Picture of the rule for how AP affects the Saving Throw Roll, and not the Save itself:

 

 

hmm I seem to have been playing wrong, then again I have only played 6 games in 8th. Anyways the playtesters were saying that it doesn't increase your save from 2+ but increase your dice roll. So you can't have a 1+ save.

The rule on the public bladeguard datasheet says storm shield improves the save characteristic...not dice roll

 

Wait until faq because GW really screwed this up

[Bryan Blaire]

So I'm trying to half puzzle this, but the new Storm Shield for at least the Bladeguard takes your standard save down by one and gives you a 4+ Invul - so if this carries over to Terminators, they would have a 1+ armor save and 4+ Invul.

 

So any roll of 2+ still saves for an AP0, or AP-1.

A roll of 3+ saves for an AP-2 weapon.

A roll of 4+ for AP-3, 5+ for AP-4, and an AP-5 (I honestly don't remember if those exist) would still save on a 6.

 

You'd really only benefit from taking the Invul at AP-4, right? AP-3 it doesn't matter which you roll.

 

Do I have that right?

 

If so, doesn't that mean that the new Storm Shields would only be worse for Termis with AP-3 and higher weapons? For PA wearers though, it's worse for AP-2 and higher?

[Debauchery101]

 

 

I actually like the New Storm Shields.

They're definitely going to be more effective against mass volleys of AP0 attacks, and a net 0 change to AP-1 attacks. They're only worse than before when facing AP-2 and higher.

I have not played my Salamanders for a minute but I use vets with shields a lot with them. Having a 2+ save with the ignore ap-1 mods makes those 2 points really worth it

[Valerian]

So I'm trying to half puzzle this, but the new Storm Shield for at least the Bladeguard takes your standard save down by one and gives you a 4+ Invul - so if this carries over to Terminators, they would have a 1+ armor save and 4+ Invul.

 

 

Correct.

 

So any roll of 2+ still saves for an AP0, or AP-1.

A roll of 3+ saves for an AP-2 weapon.

A roll of 4+ for AP-3, 5+ for AP-4, and an AP-5 (I honestly don't remember if those exist) would still save on a 6.

 

You'd really only benefit from taking the Invul at AP-4, right? AP-3 it doesn't matter which you roll.

 

Do I have that right?

 

If so, doesn't that mean that the new Storm Shields would only be worse for Termis with AP-3 and higher weapons? For PA wearers though, it's worse for AP-2 and higher?

 

Not exactly.  As all of the rules are currently written, a roll of 2+ will save against all attacks, regardless of their AP.

 

If you roll a 2 on an AP-1 attack, that modifies your Save roll minus 1 to a 1, and since your new Save Characteristic is a 1+, that's a save.

 

If you roll a 2 on an AP-4 attack, that still just modifies your Save roll down to 1, as you cannot modify a roll below 1 (i.e. you don't go from 2 to negative 2), so you still save since your Save roll was modified to a 1 and your new Save Characteristic is a 1+.

 

The absolute only way a Terminator with a Storm Shield can fail is by rolling a Natural/Unmodified 1, regardless of the AP of the Attack, because unmodified 1s Fail, no matter what.

[Bryan Blaire]

Okay, while interesting, that also seems crazy. So in reality, the best bet to take down Terminators is to just shoot them with a bunch of shots that are easy to Wound with, but don't have to have any AP at all - just force them to make a ton of rolls to get the unmodified 1s.

 

It also seems like no matter what, there's little reason to have higher AP, because everything is getting dropped to -1 anyway.

[Valerian]

Okay, while interesting, that also seems crazy. So in reality, the best bet to take down Terminators is to just shoot them with a bunch of shots that are easy to Wound with, but don't have to have any AP at all - just force them to make a ton of rolls to get the unmodified 1s.

 

It also seems like no matter what, there's little reason to have higher AP, because everything is getting dropped to -1 anyway.

 

Exactly.  That'll be the case until/unless they FAQ or Errata the wording for this.  All they'd need to do is change it to where AP affects the Save Characteristic and not the Save roll, and it would work as most of us expect that they intended.

[Arentius]

IF they FAQ it, it could be they intend for this to be the interaction.

[Valerian]

IF they FAQ it, it could be they intend for this to be the interaction.

 

True.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

From the N and R thread but relating to this very discussion

 

Update: A friend shared this that someone had asked about the new storm shields.

 

 

Essentially, don’t assume the new rule will transfer to custodes.

[Valerian]

Doesn’t really tell us anything we didn’t already know. Nothing changes for your data-sheets until there is an Eratta. Yeah, we get it. The thing is, since they’ve been really good about not having equipment/abilities with the same name work differently for different units/armies throughout 8th (unlike previous editions, where that plagued the game), many of us expect that there will be Erratas to align old Storm Shields to what we’ve seen for the Bladeguard Storm Shields.

 

Of course, we’ll just have to wait and see.

[TiguriusX]

As much as I love the attempt by the social media team to help they have 0 weight in a rule disagreement

It has to be errata or faq corrected

We saw this with TWC storm shields when Simon grant said they should be discounted on FB as well

 

 

*Edit*
Also...this ruling of "ignore other data sheets" would cause even MORE problems than it appears to solve.

 

For example...plasma guns in my codex and data sheets don't explode on unmodified 1s.  That is new wording on the indomitus data sheets

 

So you try to fix the SS issue and you screw up all other data sheet inconsistencies

Edited July 5, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'm not surprised by the non answer, people are asking for a faq before the issue is made official.

[Bryan Blaire]

this ruling of "ignore other data sheets" would cause even MORE problems than it appears to solve.

I mean, it's not a new ruling though - each datasheet is a unique piece within its own Codex/book, so unless it specifically says it overwrites/adjusts a datasheet elsewhere, the "bespoke rules" are actually supposed to work exactly that way...

[Karhedron]

Possible true but I think it is a bad idea to have Stormshields having different rules between units. If they wanted them to have different rules, I would rather they had simply called the new shields "Crusader Shields" (or something) to distinguish them from the existing wargear.

 

It also means there will come a time when these new Outrider units get rolled into the next SM Codex. This means that on that day, Ultramarine Hammernators will have different stats from Blood Angels Hammernators when they are supposed to represent the same unit. It's not the end of the world but it seems like a bad solution.