Stormshields

[Karack Blackstone]

So the save roll is modified, not the actual save value?

 

What wording are we looking for to make and keep this clear?

 

My group has been doing it wrong.

[Valerian]

So the save roll is modified, not the actual save value?

 

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That’s right, Armor Penetration affects the Save roll, not the Save value/characteristic.

[Kallas]

AP has always (well, 8th Ed) affected the actual dice roll. So rolling a 4, with a Sv3+, and with AP-2 makes that 4 -> 2, so a fail.

 

AP does not modify the Save Characteristic.

 

The confusion/contention with the way the "new" Storm Shields are worded is because they improve the Save Characteristic, and assuming that the changes carry over to all forms of Storm Shield (which seems extremely likely/sensible), then it creates an unusual interaction with the way dice rolls are capped.

 

Page 5 of the Core rules: (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf)

"A dice roll can be modified above its maximum possible value (for example, a D6 roll can be modified above 6) but it can never be modified below 1. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1."

 

Because dice "can never be modified below 1", that's where we come into the broken interaction.

 

So, we do need to assume that Terminators get the updated Storm Shield (which is a reasonable assumption):

• Base SvCh of 2+
• Modified to SvCh 1+ by the Storm Shield
• Any unmodified roll of 1 fails
• Any modified roll of 2+ will succeed, as modified results of 1 still succeed when compared to the SvCh of 1+.

Hope that's clear. Also note, that Playtesters have apparently said this is known, and that GW will FAQ it. Hopefully we have the Day 1 FAQs with this fully addressed because it is dumb.

[WickedJester1013]

Maybe I’m not fully understanding, but it says after All modifiers have been applied, if that roll would be less than 1, counts as one.

So you can actually modify the dice into the negatives. Just the final result is one.

So termy with stormshield gets hit with -4ap.

He has 1+(really a +2 because the 1 always fails thing)

I roll my d6 and get a 3, apply my negative-4 and end up with a roll of -1. Then the rule kicks in and bumps be up to 1 which means I fail.

 

You are saying the roll can never be modified past 1 but the rule you quoted gives an example that if you get a negative roll it bumps to 1 right?

 

I think that if it works the way you say it breaks a lot more Than just the potentially new storm shields. Because any ap above the armor save is wasted, you can use -3 vs termies because if the modifier gets caped at 1 you only ever apply -2.

[Valerian]

He has 1+(really a +2 because the 1 always fails thing)

 

 

Here is where you're off.  1s do not always fail.  Unmodified rolls of 1 always fail.  When a roll is modified down to 1, and you happen to have a 1+ Save (which the hypothetical Terminators would), then that is a pass.

[WickedJester1013]

Ah ok that makes more sense!

Also Valerian I read you space wolf buying guide. Good stuff!

[Valerian]

Also Valerian I read you space wolf buying guide. Good stuff!

Thank you! Be on the lookout for my Army Building Guide for 9th. I’ll be dropping that, too, very soon.

[Blackwinter]

Btw this rule change effects our wulfen squads very badly. They will be 4+/4++ nearly in every condition. Their survivability is really decreased.

 

Runing them across the field will be harder and riskier. We need to use cover so effectivliy or we need a transport, but i dont know any transport good enough for that.

[Gherrick]

Wulfen's base save is 4, making it 3+/4++ with the new SS rule. Still a nerf, but they were a touch too good in any case. They still have their 5+FnP, which none of our other units have, so they can even shrug off a mortal wound every now and then.

 

I'm more concerned what the SS change will do to our TWC, as they were already pretty bad before this change. At least the outriders have a jink strategem.

[SilverShire]

Storm Shield increasing to 5pts for other models hurts

[Fang_Guard23]

I read a GW response to a comment on the SS and the replay was that the shield 4++/+1 armor is only for the primaris storm shields and not across the board

[Valerian]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/aK1eH5c5H9DbDo0F.pdf

 

GW have fixed the issue by having the new version of Storm Shields give a +1 to the Save Roll (just as AP affects the Save Roll), rather than having them give +1 to the Save Characteristic, as originally written.

 

This only affects the new Indomitus units, though (the Bladeguard units with Shields). They have not indicated that other/current Storm Shields will go this route, but I expect that they eventually will.

[Karack Blackstone]

When they say Armor save throws, they do mean that the actual dice roll is being changed, not the save characteristic?

 

I've always had some issues with the word choices of GW, if they do mean the die roll for the save, that's fine.

 

It's just always so hard to tell...

 

Can say I'd prefer 1+ Armor Saves, however I understand why they're trying to avoid that route.

[Valerian]

When they say Armor save throws, they do mean that the actual dice roll is being changed, not the save characteristic?

 

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That’s right, Karack, and that’s why this Errata to the datasheets that aren’t even technically out yet is a fix. AP affects the actual dice roll (as we’ve discussed above) and now these new Bladeguard versions of their Storm Shields will, too. That fixes the issue.