9th Edition and you! What are you thinking about changing?

[Raven1]

I wanted to get the ball rolling, the juices flowing, cook with gas....etc etc.

 

So without being able to look at points or the Day 1 FAQ, I wanted to start a discussion regarding what you are thinking about adding, wanting to add or hoping to add with 9th edition.

 

For me Magnus is out (not that he was really in).  If we can still have full access to PA cult rules and the points are acceptable maybe a list centered around him, but probably not.

 

Two things are really coming to mind.  With a smaller board, improved blast weapons, and no -1 to hit for vehicles I am looking hard at Vinidicators, Defilers and Ectoplasma cannon Forgefiends.  

 

Vindicators looking T8 24" S10 Blast weapon.  Sounds good, new board size you can likely reach into the opponent's deployment zone at BS 3+.  The damage is still super swingy so not great.  Space Marine leaks show the loyalist Vindicator went from 125 to 130, while things like Thunderfire cannon 60% increase and Whirlwind 50% increase.  I just have a good feeling about these guys.

 

Defilers still kinda schizo but has a better chance to hit with that Battlecannon, can fight back reasonably well in combat and that Heavy Flamer might make a number of enemies think twice before trying to tag it.  Probably depends on the price

 

Forgefiends currently the autocannons are statistically superior but max hits against squads with 6+ models the Ectoplasma cannons could really come into their own.  Im expecting GW to price these out of being useful because "Blast."

 

With  the change to reserve rules and if it is true objectives stay "captured" until taken by the enemy I think mid-late game Tzaangor Enlightened could come back to see some use.  Not 27 mind you but being able to come in on a board T3 and jump around taking objectives or scoring secondaries could be useful.

 

Terminator Loyalists didnt really see a point increase.  I would argue SOT were the best of the lot and if the point increase is low or non-existent these could definitely be useful.  A brick dropped in with a Terminator Sorcerer.

 

Depending on points cost, Im try some Rubrics with flamers in a rhino or reserve.  I always like the idea, but thought it was too expensive.  Loyalist Rhino got a 17% increase, so maybe will still be too expensive.

 

Bonus

Hellforged Scorpious again with the changes to Blast rules and being able to shoot out of LOS this could really see a spike in use. It was already useful (more so for Imperials), unless priced appropriately this could either be amazing or useless.

 

GW will be handling FW unit rules.  Does this mean, I'll actually be able to use an Osiron Contemptor in 40K?  I can hope...and blindly lead myself on the road to disappointment.

 

I do wonder with the Neo-Volkite on the new primaris if GW will introduce the options onto FW units in wh40k.  I have the double C-beam Contemptor dreads, which is great but with a smaller board size, I might just go for Butcher cannons or Kheres Assault Cannons....or Volkite??!?!?!!?!?

 

Bonus Bonus

I would also be down for some Khenetai Blade guys

Edited July 4, 2020 by Raven1

[Naryn]

Haven't looked deep enough into the new leaks to have much to contribute, but I really enjoyed reading your thoughts!

 

So far the only analysis I have is that I'll probably have to shelve my 9-HQ 9-Rubric squad list in favor of something less detachment greedy now that they cost CP. I may instead have the opportunity to shield my HQs behind a wall of Helbrutes/Dreadnoughts like I used to fantasize about in 6e. May have to convert some appropriately chaotic looking lads!

[WarriorFish]

It may be too early days for me, but as it stands nothing changes for me. I will still likely keep to my Dread plan for vehicles but I think the Errata is needed before anyone can make final calls. It'd be great to see the point changes address some issues too, as noted SOT have an opportunity that I hope is taken!

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Nothing much here aside for leaving a handfull of sorcerors home potentially.

 

Interestingly enough: that is one way to get rid of smite spam.

[Prot]

Nothing much here aside for leaving a handfull of sorcerors home potentially.

 

Interestingly enough: that is one way to get rid of smite spam.

 

It is worth noting.... the rules that let us ignore the smite casting difficulty increase was an 8th edition FAQ. (I believe.)

[BoomWolf]

Honestly? without a massive change in FAQ, I see our army being even more of an underdog than before, to the point of potentially unplayable.

 

Getting the proper number of HQs we need is going to cost a lot of CP, and points in troops.

 

Losing the supcom detachment is a hard blow, given our HQs were the only thing that was up to par.

Making psykers a ripe VP farm is not doing us any favors. taking rubrics or scarabs is basically gifting VPs at this point if its not a maxed out squad that can't be killed. as long as "abhor the witch" isn't massivly nerfed, its just crushing.

 

No more casting after falling back is also hurting us more than most.

 

 

Basically, this edition (with rulebook at hand, but no point changes and D1 faqs) is putting us down even more than we were already buried.

[Raven1]

Honestly? without a massive change in FAQ, I see our army being even more of an underdog than before, to the point of potentially unplayable.

 

Getting the proper number of HQs we need is going to cost a lot of CP, and points in troops.

 

Losing the supcom detachment is a hard blow, given our HQs were the only thing that was up to par.

Making psykers a ripe VP farm is not doing us any favors. taking rubrics or scarabs is basically gifting VPs at this point if its not a maxed out squad that can't be killed. as long as "abhor the witch" isn't massivly nerfed, its just crushing.

 

No more casting after falling back is also hurting us more than most.

 

 

Basically, this edition (with rulebook at hand, but no point changes and D1 faqs) is putting us down even more than we were already buried.

 

All of that is running through my head.  It's not just an issue for Thousand Sons where a number of changes just flat out hamper the Faction in general.

 

I'm not  worried about "Abhor the Witch."  From my understanding the army can't have a psyker itself and there is a max of secondary VP.  So against armies that don't have Psykers opponents could easily max that that out, but Thousands Sons could easily get VP from Mental Interrogation without the fear of getting Denied.

[BoomWolf]

Both points are true, but there are many armies that have no psykers, and many more that will just give them up for the mere possibility of having that mission.

It hoses us, GK, daemons, etc. everyone that relies on multiple psykers.

 

And interrogation is just not equal mathematically.

First of all, it means you need to get your char within 18" of an enemy char EVERY TURN to match up. then your char has to give up all his casting, you need to not botch the casting, let alone peril yourself by dumb luck-all that while keeping both your chars and the enemy chars alive.

 

Interrogation takes a lot of hoops, and comes at a heavy cost. abhor just tells them to do what they would have wanted to do anyway-and kill the most valuable units in our army.

The two are nowhere near equal in value.

 

Abhor needs to be 3VP for a char and 1 for a unit to be even remotely fair. because even with this nerf, its still pretty good against several armies.

 

 

Most missions you'd get 6-8 at most from. but abhor is just such an easy 15. (same with titan killers, but at least you could argue knight armies get "while we stand" pretty easy to counteract)

 

 

 

There is just...so much about this edition that shoots our legs.

New supcom for magnus? yea-give up your cults.

Need multiple HQs (and we do)? lose CP and pay a lot of points for troop spam.

No longer able to weave in and out of combat and keep casting-if they catch you you have to stay in the fight.

 

We are not cheap, we are not easy, and we are already prone to being screwed by random RNG moreso than other armies. we were already at the bottom of the barrel before the secondaries were stacked against us.

[Mordas]

I play against armies that seem to have an annoying strategem where they can deny the witch on a 4+, now that you get a free CP every turn it's just going to be used against interrogation a lot of the time. 4+ to deny 3VP who wouldn't?

 

I can see smaller units being key but the terrain rules look very interesting. Putting items into reserve might not be as good as everyone first thinks, checking the layout of the terrain might be better to put key units behind cover for the -1 to hit. I am hoping that we still do not suffer the smite penalty - this would effectively end our chances to deal reliable damage out.

 

But as I haven't had a chance to get a game in 8th Edition with my Sons I think I will wait for the FAQ and chapter approved to drop before I start to tailor my force for the table.

[Prot]

My changes based on 4 games of 9th thus far:

 

- Back to Heldrakes. I may take the baleflamer variant still, but the good news is, this is a better tie up unit in 9th, since fly units can't retreat from it and fire. A lot of fly units are extremely killy. Think of Flyers (Eldar), Tau, even... Foetid Bloat Drones.

 

- Terminators. Scarab Occult are great body guards in 9th edition where keeping our Sorcs alive is paramount to doing real damage. (I always did use Scarab occult in unhealthy doses, but now they have a bit more merit).

 

- Helbrutes! Crazy, but yes. Another character body guard (Look Out Sir) and although I used my Multimelta Helbrute moving, and shooting (without penalty) down the field... wow it was nice to actually do 6 damage to a Super Heavy in their deployment zone which I don't think I ever did in 8th. Bonus: Plasma Cannons are better as Blast now too.

 

- Dual Lascannon Contemptors. Okay, I used one a lot in my games anyway, but it looks like it's worth it now even more so.

 

- Defilers. Clumsy, ugly, but far more useful with the Battlecannon Blast rule, and moving and shooting, and protecting characters. 

 

* Don't forget, with the new coherency for squads and for assault, it means the "Monstrous and Vehicle" units can swing "up" into a ruin 5".

 

 

Chaos Marines of all types are in tough as our HQ's are handcuffed. 

[Zodd1888]

I feel you Boomwolf.

 

The situational nature of the Psychic Action being in the right place, at the right time, forgoing to there acts/abilities, rolling off against an opponent for 3 VP. It's a little much when I look at others we've seen.

 

I think I'd be more okay with it if it was 4 VP. Being able to max out in 4 turns vs. 5, and being at 12 VP for 3 turns, just feels right to me.

 

We must be looking at a rework. We had been written in 8th with an entirely different Psychic phase than what we got post-FAQ's, balance changes, etc.

 

I mean our WC's are still out of whack, that's low hanging fruit right out of the gate.

 

One thing: I'd be curious to see what would happen if Magnus was 17 wounds...

Edited July 7, 2020 by Zodd1888

[BoomWolf]

Prot-the problem is that heldrakes, helbrutes, contemptors and defilers are all better in any other legion that the TS. if the army is filled with them, you might as well switch legion.

 

 

Zodd-yea, that's kind of the problem. warpcraft missions are just bad when it comes to reliably getting VPs, except the one that is directly against psyker armies that is the easiest in the game by far. our army was non-functional outside HQs before, and now we got even less HQs. so much needs to change in order to make the army viable. (or one thing, if we can multi-cast our cult spell-that alone makes a massive difference. but the secondaries needs to be rebalanced too.)

[DarkPhoenix]

Prot-the problem is that heldrakes, helbrutes, contemptors and defilers are all better in any other legion that the TS. if the army is filled with them, you might as well switch legion.

What does work well for this Legion, going into 9th?

[Prot]

 

Prot-the problem is that heldrakes, helbrutes, contemptors and defilers are all better in any other legion that the TS. if the army is filled with them, you might as well switch legion.

What does work well for this Legion, going into 9th?

 

 

I don't know if I agree with that. It's too soon to be too judgmental, but there's a big problem with many of these units, and that's the fact they're going to lose the advantage they used to leverage with characters in 8th.

 

The best 'daemon/vehicle' armies were arguably ones that leveraged the Disco Lord to full effect, and a Master of Possession with legion rules. Now? The Disco Lord is hard pressed to crack the line up (since you need 2-3 to see one live past T1). 

 

I personally think the psychic phase still helps some of those units. The other Legions (I also play Black Legion) have other issues that hit them too. Chaos overall isn't left in a terribly good spot right now (imo). But what these units have done is improve. And that's something they needed. 

 

I don't know how many of you have played any test games yet, but I'll tell you aside from a few obvious things, keeping your HQ's alive can be big challenge, and all of the units I  mentioned as getting a boost, inherently got a boost from the fact you need to keep your characters alive, and these units help do that (within 3"). 

 

Scarab Occult have some great potential now too. I agree though there will have to be some serious tweaking down the road. I assume this is much like the start of 8th where everyone just kind of 'hangs in there' until their respective Codexes get redone.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I admit the more I see of 9th, the more I feel my optimisim slipping away, as it just seems both my GK and TS have had the carpet pulled from under them with so many things like secondaries, board control ect. I'll try, but I have a feeling 9th is going to see my focus more on my EC, vostroyans and even dust off my first army, Space wolves more then I'll use my GK or TS.

I've always loved the FW units, but I want to wait until I've seen points and their new books until I decide, as all my armies bar GK use them.

[Ahzek451]

If I had to geuss, while a few faq band aides and fixes might come our way this edition, I don't for see any goodies(new codex and models) until roughly the end of the edition. But that's ok I suppose. Not that we were ever top tier, but it's nice to be the underdog and win when you can for the most part. 

[HighMarshalAmp]

Might I just start by saying that the Rubric Marines were the kit that got me into playing 40k in the first place.

I love the design and I always made it a point to try and get the most out of them in my list.

 

Looking at my playstyle so far, it always relied on getting Rubrics to the front quickly - so DMC or Facade.

Worked pretty well, too.

 

Now that it seems having a Character there is what GW thinks will win us the game, it looks like sending a Rubric Blob and a Sorcerer there instead to gather VP is my new plan A. And I don't like it.

Anyone who ain't playing Custodes will just keep a comfortable 20" between my Sorc and their Characters and bang goes my scoring VP in the Psychic Phase.

 

I just hope they can pull their weight as objectiv holders further back or I spent a whole lot of time painting gold just to make something pretty to put on the shelf.

 

[...]

- Terminators. Scarab Occult are great body guards in 9th edition where keeping our Sorcs alive is paramount to doing real damage. (I always did use Scarab occult in unhealthy doses, but now they have a bit more merit).

[...]

Well considering I just ordered a second box of those guys, I'm thrilled to hear that.

 

Guess a 10 man Scarab Squad will DMC to the front instead of my Rubrics. Yay for plan B.

[BoomWolf]

Yaknow, I noticed something odd about the new supreme command detachemnt.

 

Nothing says the warlord need to match in any way the patrol/battalion/bridage.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Yaknow, I noticed something odd about the new supreme command detachemnt.

 

Nothing says the warlord need to match in any way the patrol/battalion/bridage.

We might still get mono codex/ cult bonus abilities.

What are you thinking about taking in the SC?

[BoomWolf]

Well, you could for example take magnus, and pair him with a totally different chaos army.

Or morty is a TS army.

 

I'm guessing abbadon would also be a supreme commander and we could take him.

 

 

I don't know if it has any applications, just that it's possible.

[Raven1]

Yaknow, I noticed something odd about the new supreme command detachemnt.

 

Nothing says the warlord need to match in any way the patrol/battalion/bridage.

I noticed that, I believe that's there for an subfaction to take the big boss. Guilliman, Abaddon, Ghazkull, Silent King, Ynnari crazy cat lady. Sister with the heavy flamer pulpit.

 

The point being taking an awesome centerpiece leader model without breaking subfaction rules, but still breaking solo faction bonus as some seem to have.

 

Like I think Ghazkull doesnt break solo subfaction but not benefit from Goff while this would allow him to benefit from Goff and battalion to benefit from Bad Moons or whatever and again other similar models.

 

Of course problem with it (fingers cross for day one FAQ) is it breaks the Death Guard and Thousand Sons cults as it full access requires the warlord to be in the cult. A simple sentence like if Magnus/Morty is your warlord treat it as if he was in faction to get relics. Or maybe they inte5it some weird thing like space marines that do and do not get relics based on being the actuall Chapter or offshoot chapter.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Raven1

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Anyone else thinking we are going to see assassins in most games against imperial players? The ability to swap them out for whichever is best is going to be very nasty, especially in events. Certainly making me think twice about my GK and TS even more as the prospect of facing a culexus is increased.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Rune Priest Ridcully

[Are Verlo]

Anyone else thinking we are going to see assassins in most games against imperial players? The ability to swap them out for whichever is best is going to be very nasty, especially in events. Certainly making me think twice about my GK and TS even more as the prospect of facing a culexus is increased.

It was the same way in 8th ed.

In an IMPERIUM army ,all the player had to do was set aside 85 reinforcment points and pay 2 CP for the strat. He/she could then chose any assassin suited for that game.

 

Edit:grammar

Edited July 9, 2020 by Are Verlo

[Raven1]

@Rune Priest Ridcully

 

No, I dont think things will change much for 8th to 9th. It will take a new rules set i.e. codex or White Dwarf for big enough changes to really make a difference.

 

I mean the rules are nice and dropping them in non-Cypher Imperial armies is good, they individually arent enough and bring enough synergistically to be everywhere on the tabletop.

[Prot]

This is going to sound petty, but the more I see people play TS in 9th, and the more I play 9th, it's starting to feel like very few playtesters (if any) really concentrated on Thousand Sons.

 

The Psychic phase has been turned down just from the baseline rules changes (Command Re-roll, Detachment Rules, can't cast after fall back, protecting characters, etc).

 

Conversely, armies with very good troops and a low requirement on support entities like HQ's, look really good. Astra, AdMech, Custodes, (so far) look good, and play well.

 

Armies hit by my personal qualifiers include: Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, Eldar, etc. (those top heavy armies which are especially hit if siding with a heavy psychic design element)

 

I don't think Chaos Space Marines are much better off because of their similarities in list design, however they do have some decent mid range shooty choices which I still think Thousand Sons are greatly reduced in. (The Psychic phase has historically been our shooting phase). Add on top of this we have lost our ability to Smite at WC5 with our mono faction.

 

So where are our apparent strengths for 9th? Bodies of decent infantry. Powerful Psykers (If left unchecked). But oddly we have to be careful about Close Combat if we look at our historically 'strong' builds. Let's remember not too long ago -every- half decent "Thousand Sons" army list seemed to revolve around Ahriman + 2 Psykers in a Supreme Command, and then put a functional army / faction in the other 1600 points you have left over. 

 

If the troops are where it's at for Thousand Sons, I almost think we have to adopt our HQ's to pure close combat. That sounds crazy, but retreating from Close Combat (falling back) is death for us.... I've tried it. 

 

Here's the conundrum: you want to stay in CC to start casting. However, by doing so you are almost certain to get peeled apart by Astartes, Custodes, Nids... fill in the close combat nightmare of your meta.  No one in their right mind would argue our infantry is close combat capable, except perhaps... Goats (ugh). 

 

Bear with me  here, but what I'm suggesting is we might be entering an edition where we have to be able to keep SoT, Rubrics, Goats in CC, and keep a real 'wrecking ball' HQ in there with them. Trust me, I've felt it first hand, we can't push back strong, or elite CC infantry without it. BUT if you're hitting back like a truck with Daemon Princes, and an Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane, and/or loading up on Diabolic Strength more often.... Daemonic Talons, perhaps the Tzeentch sword that removes invluns? (Can we take that in Thousand Sons?... I know I did, but not sure if it was legal.)

 

Anyway, that's my overall assessment. Last edition my HQ's were more or less paper, but it didn't matter. I think this edition the whole army has to be engaged... not only to keep your HQ's untarget-able but also help push back with heavy counter attacks, because we aren't out shooting/ Pskyering anyone to death. The psychics have turned to utility and damage. It's a game of board control now.

 

(P.S. What I would do for psychically capable Dreadnoughts in this edition!)

Edited July 10, 2020 by Prot