9th edition question - MoA/Infiltration

[Lukoi]

So, as I read the new rules, I'm trying to assess the positive/negative impacts to RG specifically, as I press forward to adjust my list.

 

I'm absolutely not a fan of the new way the matched play (and probably narrative, but I'm more concerned with competitive format), has the determination of who goes first determined after deployment on the field.

 

That being said, if I'm reading the rules correctly, it seems MoA/infiltration could become even stronger tools than they are now.  Frankly, I'm concerned that's unintended by GW, lol.

 

Regardless, looking for folks interpretation of the mission play rules, to see I'm understanding this correctly.

 

MoA/Infiltration (and not Lias Issadon's version of MoA, as it specifically says during the deployment phase) seem to occur during phase 6, "Resolve Pre-Battle Rules," which comes after deployment (phase 4), and determine who wins the choice to go first/second (phase 5).

 

Am I misreading this?

 

MoA states: "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins, if this Warlord is on the battlefield ..." 

 

and 

 

Infiltrate states: "Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins..."

 

Seems to me, they'd only be usable after the person going first is determined, as they use the phrase "at the start of the first battle round."

 

What do you guys think? 

 

Additionally, should we expect this to be FAQ'd out?

 

I ask because, the ability to use Cents has been nerfed by cost, the Eradicators and Aggressors count as Primaris so cannot be MoA'd by Lias, and Eradicators, while strong for their cost, are hard limited to a 3-pack travelling with regular MoA.  

 

Right now, I literally have been playing without MoA in use at all (playing 2nd ALOT), with just forces in deepstrike, so the only Raven Guard things I really end up using as of late are the Warlord traits Swift and Deadly, and Shadowmaster coming in from deepstrike.  

[Dracos]

I don’t understand the confusion. This works exactly the same way it did before, since the RG supplement FAQ was released. They’ve added some steps (because people ...) but this is still relatively the same as before

 

Deploy

Roll Off

MoA / Infiltrate

Turn 1 starts.

 

The only difference I see is no Seize

[Lukoi]

I don’t understand the confusion. This works exactly the same way it did before, since the RG supplement FAQ was released. They’ve added some steps (because people ...) but this is still relatively the same as before

 

Deploy

Roll Off

MoA / Infiltrate

Turn 1 starts.

 

The only difference I see is no Seize

 

I literally had someone on 40kWarhammerCompetitive tell me it occurred in turn 4, so I figured I'd ask.  A good use for forums wouldn't ya say?

[Riddlesworth]

The new way of determining who goes first is a game changer.

Previously it was about deploying to go first or deploying to go second to deal with the alpha strike.

A lot more cagey now, which should lead to better games.

[Lukoi]

The new way of determining who goes first is a game changer.

Previously it was about deploying to go first or deploying to go second to deal with the alpha strike.

A lot more cagey now, which should lead to better games.

 

Actually, I think the new terrain rules will make things cagey enough.  Not knowing if you're going to go first or second, is more likely to take it from cagey to overly conservative deployments in my opinion.  Folks are used to packing into L-ruins and the like, to be cagey and yet push up as far forward as the terrain allows.  With the new terrain rules, being on the terrain's footprint takes away the obscuring (LOS) benefit and means you can shoot through/see through as normal, admittedly with a small cover bonus.  Folks are going to put themselves behind tall terrain, pushing folks back (on an admittedly smaller board).

 

Watching numerous 9th edition practice matches, you even see first turns with little to no action (which is an interesting challenge for 5 turn games), as both sides want to commit on their own terms.

 

Personally, I'm willing to bet the ITC/ETC community ends up tweaking this particular rule to keep the playing fields more predictable so that things are more decision based, and a little less dice based.  Unlike hit rolls, wound rolls, save rolls etc that tend to statistically balance out over the course of a game, there's only one "see who goes first," roll.

[superwill]

As has been said already, that’s how MoA and Infiltrate worked in 8th and presumably still will in 9th.

 

The whole “determining who goes first” format previewed so far is pretty bad news to RG (along with lots of the changes sadly) with not much upside, but it possibly becomes necessary to make that change now that every army has the ability to put anything in reserve.

 

I myself was thinking that their goal for this edition was to eliminate the need for ITC and house rules altogether. And for the most part they’ve done that, but when I saw these rules on first turn and deployment I thought “that might actually be the one thing that pushes the community back into third-party-rules”. However, it’s worth noting we’re still not 100% sure if that’s how competitive/tournament deployment and missions will work, because that’s all in a seperate Chapter Approved book which will likely have slightly more ITC style tweaks in it. So we’ll see whether that sticks with the sad old system we’ve seen leaked, or has something more like what’s been introduced.

[Lukoi]

All true, and appreciate the feedback that I wasn't losing my mind here.  Good to know I'd read this all correctly.

[Dracos]

I’m going to keep this discussion going with this thought.

 

Good competitive players already played conservatively, only pushing hard when the odds were stacked in a units favor at the right time and place

 

It’s the point and click player that gets caught with his power armor down that complains about getting pinched on the hindquarters first turn or not properly anticipating his opponent use of reserves. That’s my opinion. Good players don't just react, they anticipate an opponents next (two) moves and is positioning his own units not only in anticipation of the expected but developing a bravo maneuver in case which is likely when playing against another good opponent sees what’s up and has his own pivot option set up.

 

I see MoA being strong for Raven Guard. You have a unit of Cents in reserve. Your Opponent then starts deploying to deny the edges of the table hoping to make them come in your deployment zone and limiting their ability to hit a flank. This should open the center more for your MoA deployed Aggressors. You now have midfield defended by your Infiltrators (and Invictors) your opponent forces naturally split for defensive purposes and your on the front foot T1.

 

One scenario. Other here too come. ;)