CSM Utilising Primaris Equipment

[MegaVolt87]

I mean, astartes chainsword gets -1AP, how about astartes bolter + combi/storm etc and bolt pistol get -1 AP as well. Having astartes chainswords and bolter + BP on stock marines would certainly help, also would be good for SM tac squads too. 

[Maschinenpriester]

I mean, astartes chainsword gets -1AP, how about astartes bolter + combi/storm etc and bolt pistol get -1 AP as well. Having astartes chainswords and bolter + BP on stock marines would certainly help, also would be good for SM tac squads too.

The problem is that this would invalidate the primaris weaponry, but basically that is what should have happened in the first place.

[Subtle Discord]

Nobody really saw the treatment that Havocs got coming, when they got their revamp. Rules-wise they absolutely could have been even more spicy, but they can now easily get a buff to bring them better in line with what they're supposed to do on the table and how the models look. I could easily see Chosen getting the same treatment to give Chaos a go-to 2W answer to Primaris along with some unique gear and tricks. I'd wager to say it's only a matter of time something happens. Don't let a revamp release of models lull you into too much confidence that GW won't churn out more for us to gobble up, faster than you might think. They're bringing more production on line for good reason and the appetite for GW to come up with the next round of kits for us to purchase will be endless and the pace relentless. They're carving huge swaths in rages that need updating with each new major release, it's only a matter of time before they run out if ripe top-of-the-list targets. So then what?

 

Note, again, I am completely aware of GWs ability to somehow overlook what seems to be an excellent opportunity to correct an omission or flaw in their offering, and/or their remarkable ability to be completely hit-and-miss when it comes to rules when they do release something that fits a hole in a model range. I too am merely being cautiously optimistic and hopeful, lightly salted to taste.

[MegaVolt87]

 

I mean, astartes chainsword gets -1AP, how about astartes bolter + combi/storm etc and bolt pistol get -1 AP as well. Having astartes chainswords and bolter + BP on stock marines would certainly help, also would be good for SM tac squads too.

The problem is that this would invalidate the primaris weaponry, but basically that is what should have happened in the first place.

Not really, primaris bolt weapons have more range, dmg, extra gimicks like ignore cover etc. It just makes tacs and CSM an alternative to an intercessor, while still diffrent. AP -1 on old marine bolters and chainswords is not unreasonable. Especially for CSM with no doctrine system that buff our guns like that, so its balanced for CSM.

[Panzer]

I mean I would welcome AP-1 on regular Bolters, I just don't think it would make a real difference at all. Most Marine players go with Scouts or Incursors anyway so they can infiltrate.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Panzer

[MegaVolt87]

I mean I would welcome AP-1 on regular Bolters, I just don't think it would make a real difference at all. Most Marine players go with Scouts or Incursors anyway so they can infiltrate.

True, but with AP-1 chainswords and bolters, kinda would justify a points reset back to 15 point tacticals, 14-15 point CSM/ chosen. With the points reset, back to where we started with cultists, scouts as the filler, CSM and tacs left in the dust once again.

Edited July 7, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Panzer]

 

I mean I would welcome AP-1 on regular Bolters, I just don't think it would make a real difference at all. Most Marine players go with Scouts or Incursors anyway so they can infiltrate.

True, but with AP-1 chainswords and bolters, kinda would justify a points reset back to 15 point tacticals, 14-15 point CSM/ chosen. With the points reset, back to where we started with cultists, scouts as the filler, CSM and tacs left in the dust once again.

 

 

Keep in mind that the Primaris stuff became more expensive as well. 20ppm for regular Intercessors means that you could get a third 5 man Tactical/CSM unit for each two 5 man Intercessor unit. With how scoring secondaries work (often needing a unit to just sit there not shooting or moving) and Look Out Sir requirering at least 3 models in a unit, it has worth on its own.

 

Tacticals haven't been a great choice in a long time. The new points don't change anything about it. Infiltration is too strong and cheap = more CP and if you didn't need cheap you went with Incursors instead. Secondaries might change that but unlikely. They are just in a bad place design wise even. Even before Primaris and the CP system arrived everyone rather took Scouts instead if it wasn't for some of the cheesy formations that required you to take Tacticals.

 

But back to CSM. Being able to bring more units is a good thing. Primaris lists really struggle with having enough units on the board to do something like secondaries while also having enough to actively fight the enemy without getting grinded down. Their stuff is good in a vacuum but also expensive. Chaos can take their quality stuff while also filling holes by taking cheap stuff like Cultists or CSM. Buffing CSM which would likely also increase the points might hurt as much as it might help in 9th. It would be better to have the units that are actually supposed to be the meat of the faction be buffed instead. Namely Chosen, Possessed, Terminators and Warp Talons if we want to stick with infantry. Otherwise the Daemon Enginges  as well (the fiends could really use some love).

[MegaVolt87]

Marines are marines though. 15 point tacs/CSM with AP-1 output in melee and shooting would be worth that. Tacs and CSM without should be like 10 points as they are now realisticly. They will still die like flies against primaris shooting, even with less primaris shooting at lower model count. SM shooting has little failure points due to a combjnation of rules and volume in comparison to CSM. CSM either has to have a higher dmg output or much greater resistance via rules/ model count, we will be lacking both at this rate in 9th ed. Also what about when CA gives out points cuts, which is what sells CA later on? Low model count then is an issue again and a fix/feature has gone again.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

While we’re wishlisting and talking warp bolters, what about the Daemon Prince warp bolter? I’d love to see that weapon made available for more units, such as Chosen!

[Sonoftherubric21]

So..... frankly....Chosen, Cults, Havocs all need to become 2 wounds. This alone would go a huge way to fixing our issues in the chaos roster. Chosen will get a new kit eventually and in doing so may end up with a new statline or slightly buffed one. Cults should be 2 wounds each to even out the disparity. And how the heck did Havocs end up with 1 wound when they are almost as bulky as an aggressor?!?!?! They are wider then a Primaris and almost as tall, Should have been 2 wounds if they take away our ablative wounds. 

 

1 wound "marine" statlines don't work well in 8th, let alone what will come in 9th. We aren't cheap enough to horde the way other armies do, and we aren't durable enough to survive equivocal punishment to our cost. 

 

Though, the basic troop slot chaos marines are in a very odd place. What we need in addition is tactics reworks. Luckily as a prime example the Night Lords were name dropped specifically by the team on Twitch so we *know* that some reworks are coming. Specifically for "Traits that don't do anything" which I imagine Word bearers are included in that. 

[Khornestar]

I sure hope those are Chapter Approved reworks and not 9th-Ed-codex reworks, re: the stuff that just won’t work, like the strat that allows us to shoot a vehicle’s heavy weapon without penalty after moving. My prediction is these things just get deleted, not reworked. Same with any special rules of similar nature. We pay once for those deletions and points updates, then we pay for the real updates in the codex.

 

I wonder how likely 2 specials/heavies per 5 CSM would be? Probably not very, but that could help.