Creations of Bile Army

[Doom Herald]

So far I have my 500 pt army assembled, excepting the Disco Lord, and I have to say, Bile is the worst model that I've had to assemble. Lots of fragile bits anchoring the pieces to the sprue and some sprue set ups that had to have been done purely in an act of sadism. The hoses on the Chirurgeon have intentional plastic pieces attached to them that do not connect to the sprue that have to be cut which in one case caused it to break. The bolts on the piece under the skulls are where it connects to the sprue and one side ended up so bent when I tried to remove it that I just decided to clip them off. One leg fits in a very bizarre way, and the piece connecting all the hoses to his chest is probably best put on last because it connects in place in such a way that it broke off while putting the rest of the model together. I really think if I get another I'm going to have to pay a professional to assemble it because it's so agrivating. It's going to be a lot of work fixing him up. On the bright side, just one more model to go. I'm going to try magnetizing the Disco Lord, so if anyone has done it and has advice let me know. Hopefully I'll get a game in this weekend. Edited August 5, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

I got my first game in today, against White Scars. Disco was unfinished, so I used a DP w/ wings, sword, warpbolter still with talisman of burning blood and the Bile character upgrade strat for +1 advance and charge. DP made short work of an Intercessor squad before deepstrike terminators lit him up hard. Even though he died, he still forced the termies to deepstrike on the other side of the board from my main army. Chaos spawn claimed an objective behind cover and my Marines held on objective while throwing autocannons at Intercessors to soften them. Bile buffed both squads to T5 which made a pretty substantial difference as did S5 making for S10 powerfist hits. His deepstriked termie Chapter master mauled the squads but ultimately succumbed to the powerfists. I forgot to do a few things including a whole shooting phase (first game since Covid, so I was off) but he forgot to do some things too. The marine squads came out with the champions and one autocannons intact and the champion did some serious hurt to the enemy terminators allowing Bile to finish them, making the charge just barely due to his Surgeon Acolyte. By that time the game was basicly over and by victory points I came out pretty far ahead. I know everyone has said taking objectives is a big deal, but it REALLY is. Macrotensile Sinews (strat) was also huge, basicly made my CSMs 9" move with advance and charge. When I try higher points, I really think I'm going to do larger squads with thunderhammers though. S10, D3 instead of D[d3] is going to chew up characters and tougher units. I don't think he was prepared for my troops to hit that hard when it was d3, so a flat 3 will make them extra killy. The Master is Watching was also huge with the powerfists needing more re-rolls. I only ended up burning 1 or 2 CP each turn (if any) so I was able to rely on the strats when I needed. Edited August 5, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Panzer]

Just a heads up, unlike last edition the Powerfists and Thunderhammers are back to being only S9 with the +1S buff as it's all multiplication before addition without things being segmented between stat modifier and weapon modifier.

Also how do you plan to use Thunderhammers on your squads? Only the Lord can take them in a CSM army.

[Doom Herald]

Just a heads up, unlike last edition the Powerfists and Thunderhammers are back to being only S9 with the +1S buff as it's all multiplication before addition without things being segmented between stat modifier and weapon modifier.

Also how do you plan to use Thunderhammers on your squads? Only the Lord can take them in a CSM army.

What page is the new rules for weapon stat changes, for reference?

 

You are right that the normal champions can't take them because it's a "Melee Weapon" listed item, but something else must be able to if they have two different point costs for character and non character.

 

Edit: looks like Chosen can take them, so that might be something I look into. One point for an extra attack on these guys isn't bad.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Panzer]

 

Just a heads up, unlike last edition the Powerfists and Thunderhammers are back to being only S9 with the +1S buff as it's all multiplication before addition without things being segmented between stat modifier and weapon modifier.

Also how do you plan to use Thunderhammers on your squads? Only the Lord can take them in a CSM army.

What page is the new rules for weapon stat changes, for reference?

 

You are right that the normal champions can't take them because it's a "Melee Weapon" listed item, but something else must be able to if they have two different point costs for character and non character.

 

Edit: looks like Chosen can take them, so that might be something I look into. One point for an extra attack on these guys isn't bad.

 

 

Page 203 the box about modifying characteristics on the right at the bottom:

 

 

 

Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4) is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are therefore resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That's actually what the rules said in 8th as well, but it was then changed by the Designer's Commentary that came out shortly after release.  So we will have to see if the same thing happens this time - but until then, the rules prevent doubling after addition.

 

So, while it is a bit of a hit versus T 5 (and 9 and 10+, but other than fortifications I can't think of anything with a T that high) it is nice to have all the rules in one place and not changed by a document that really should just be explaining the rules choices, not changing them.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Doom Herald]

Thanks for that. The rules we got are the rules we got, but I do feel like it makes less sense this way.

 

Say I have a WE Berserker Champion with a chainsword and a powerfist and a Creations of Bile Exalted Champion with the same. When attacking with the chainsword they are the same strength, but with the powerfist the Berserker Champion has more strength.

 

Now, let's suppose that the Exalted Champion has Prime Test Subject (+1S) in addition. With the chainsword the Exalted is stronger than the Berserker but with the powerfist they are equal.

 

It seems bizarre to me to interact that way, the strength increase a Berserker has is a fixed part of him in the same way surgical and other physical modifications would be. I'm sure it's there to stop ridiculous strength scores, but since we have plenty of rules that wound on 2s or autowound, I'm not sure it would generally be a big problem since strength does nothing but make it easier to wound in 8th and 9th. It does make the powerfists less effective since they don't get a better role on T5, but it's still great for this army since they get a strat for re-roll all hits, access to VotLW in a pinch, and have a very high mobility. My powerfists were eating up terminators anyway, so the work they did this game would be unaffected if they were delivered at S9 instead of S10.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Panzer]

That's actually what the rules said in 8th as well, but it was then changed by the Designer's Commentary that came out shortly after release.  So we will have to see if the same thing happens this time - but until then, the rules prevent doubling after addition.

 

So, while it is a bit of a hit versus T 5 (and 9 and 10+, but other than fortifications I can't think of anything with a T that high) it is nice to have all the rules in one place and not changed by a document that really should just be explaining the rules choices, not changing them.

 

Yeah they clarified later that you do the calculation first for the profile and then for the weapon. It was a big exception to how things worked before 8th and so far such a thing doesn't exist in 9th though. Kinda doubt they go back to it too since it was kinda confusing and hard to explain people that there are two separate calculations happening for some reason.

[Doom Herald]

I don't see how it was confusing. You have your stat, then when you make an attack it is delivered at the strength stated on the weapon. A guy has S:5 (S:4+1), he attacks with a S:U his attacks are S:5. He attacks with a weapon S:x2, it would make sense that those attacks are delivered at a strength equal to twice that of weapon that uses user's strength. I honestly find it more confusing this way. In 8th, you have the stat value and if/when you used a S:x2 weapon you simply doubled the value. In 9th, you have the stat value and if/when you use a S:x2 weapon you have to redo calculations. Let's say I have an Exalted Champion with a chainsword and powerfist in a Bile army and I give him Prime Test Subject, putting him at S:6 (including legion trait). When he attacks with the chainsword, it's simply his strength stat. When I attack with the powerfist, I now have to deconstruct his stat down to component calculations (base:4, +1, +1), multiply the base, then re-add the two +1s. In 8th, I wouldn't have to break down his stat, simply multiply it. The powerfist doesn't actually double his stat, he doesn't have S:10 in this example but rather delivers powerfist attacks (and only powerfist attacks) at the new strength. I guess I didn't see the powerfist as modifying strength, but as being delivered at the strength of the powerfist akin to S:(Ux2) the same way a weapon that uses S:4 doesn't modify the strength of the user, but uses a new value. Saying the powerfist works this way is, to me, like saying a model without a S value could never use a weapon with S:3 since the rules say a model without a value cannot modify that value, apparently weapons modify your strength value now.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Rules is rules. But I agree Doom Herald, it is pretty dumb. When a character has 4 strength on a data sheet and gets +1 from a legion trait, he has 5 strength, the whole battle. Not for just a phase, not for just a turn, from start to finish. If he attacks with a strength user weapon, it's his strength, which is 5. But if he attacks with a strength x2 weapon, you have to subtract everything on top of the datasheet, then double it, then add it all back, instead of just doubling his strength. Soooo stupid in my opinion. I don't get why the weapon modifies the user's strength and not the user modifying the weapons strength.

 

Im happy you enjoyed your first game and won though!

[Llagos_Tyrant]

 

Just a heads up, unlike last edition the Powerfists and Thunderhammers are back to being only S9 with the +1S buff as it's all multiplication before addition without things being segmented between stat modifier and weapon modifier.

Also how do you plan to use Thunderhammers on your squads? Only the Lord can take them in a CSM army.

Edit: looks like Chosen can take them, so that might be something I look into. One point for an extra attack on these guys isn't bad.

 

 

Indeed Chosen can take them. They pack a hefty punch on the charge with Thunder Hammers, and if you give them the Mark of Khorne? With a Stratagem that's another round of brutally strong rip and tear. Add in Veterans of the Long War and (although you may spend a lot of CP) not much, if anything, is going to be left standing afterwards - although I don't know if Creations of Bile can take VotLW.

[Doom Herald]

They can use VotLW for now at least. Nothing defines Creations of Bile as a renegade chapter and fluff-wise, from what I've been reading recently, a great deal (so far all really) of Bile's students are from the traitor legions. Wounding Landraiders on 2s is pretty sweet.

 

On a side note, there's a hole in RAW that I never noticed. The only definition I can find for "Renegade Chapters" is in the Legion Trait rules. The rules for legion traits say that if your CSM are from a renegade chapter or have no associated trait to use the Dark Raiders trait. This implies that when you replace <Legion> with a keyword other than those listed, they don't have to be from "renegade chapters" (because this term is never defined and it is apparently possible to not have an associated legion trait and NOT be a renegade chapter) and thus can use VotLW and the Dark Raiders trait. The same would not be true of the named renegade chapters though. I doubt it was meant that way, but it feels balanced to me since Red Corsairs get Dark Raiders plus CP as their trait. Giving up the rest of that trait and other renegade rules seems more than a fair trade to access VotLW.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

I just got a 1,000 point game in. I was running Bile, Disco Lord (Bale Flamer and Virus Injector) (Talisman of Burning Blood and The Master's Hound), 10 Bolter CSM (Powerfist & 2 Autocannons), 5 Chainsword CSM (Powerfist), 3 Mutilators, 2 Obliterators, and a Greater Possessed (Helm of All Seeing). I also summoned a Poxbringer.

 

Things were off a little rocky because I started off trying to play 8th edition more than 9th. I was baited into going after a Scout Squad with my Bolter CSM and they were pretty quickly destroyed by 2 Contemptors with dual Kheres after killing the Scouts. The Disco missed his charge just barely in turn 1 but still managed to spit his Bale Flamer at an Intercessor squad while covered by terrain from other enemies. The base size was kind of limiting in the terrain heavy board we were using.

 

Turn two, I dropped my deepstrikers. Oblits were on the roof-top to fire on the Contemptors. They didn't fair too well, even with Endless Cacophony, due to a combination of bad rolls and the strategem to make the first one I fired on harder to wound. The Mutilators I dropped by Bile to be his bodyguard unit and managed to keep Bile from being fired on in turn 2. The GP summoned the Poxbringer on top of an objective. The Disco made his way to the Intercessors and murdered them in short order. On his turn, my opponent dropped his Terminators. A Chapter Master dropped by his second Intercessor squad and a unit of Terminators and Terminator Chaplain dropped in the back to shoot my 5CSM off of their objective. My 5CSM died, my Disco weathered the fire from the Intercessors and Master. The Master tried to charge my Disco, so I took the opportunity to overwatch and did 2 wounds. The Contemptors shot and then charged my Oblits, but they also weathered it well.

 

Turn 3, I moved up the Disco up to ensure the charge on the Chapter Master and Intercessors. The Bale Flamer and charge killed the Chapter Master and nearly the Intercessors. Mutilators, GP, and Bile charged the closest Contemptor. The Mutilators rolled +1S, -1AP, and D3 putting them at strength 8 and they shredded the Contemptor before anyone else got to attack. On his turn he managed to shoot up my Mutilators with the other Contemptor and Terminators and took out two of them.

 

By this point he called it in my favor. By victory points we were pretty even, but his board presence was pretty broken. The Second Contemptor was likely to be over-run, the remaining Intercessors were certain to die and his Termies and Termie Chaplain were basicly all that would be left and my units were pretty strong and in general faster. In addition, the characters were basicly all still fresh.

 

The speed advantage that Bile offers is huge. My Disco was basicly in the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, and that's with the failed charge. It seems that summoning is similarly pretty advantageous because the smaller board means you can more easily summon units to hold objectives. Mutilators worked as well as I had hoped, but I realised that once one dies they can no longer provide Lookout Sir. I think I might add a second to improve protection, they definitely hit hard though. I was about to try Grandfather's Blessing with Fleshy Abundance to bring a Mutilator back, but we called the game before that.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

Played in a small 2,000 point tournament yesterday. I won 2/3 matches with the loss being against Chaos Knights in the first round. The mission secondary made the middle objective a higher priority and it took a few turns to start dropping the Knights. In the end I had all the Knights killed, so it was just his patrol detachment of renegades left, but by then he already had a big lead on points.

 

For the other two (Orks/Sororitas), I won but it was a little close in terms of points, though by the end I had the battlefield turned more in my favor. Lessons learned were to keep the Lord Discordant after light vehicles instead of big ones whenever possible to maximize his output. Obliterators are perfectly capable of hitting the big guys when they have room to drop. I also decided that Linebreaker is generally just not practical in a 2,000 point game for me, since I intended to use deepstriked and had trouble making room in the enemy deployment for them. I also decided that Psychic Ritual is AMAZING if the terrain is supportive of it. Generally with the havoc I was unleashing, my psychic ritual will have to be largely ignored.

 

Because I went second in all three games, the Defiler died pretty quickly, but he did draw a lot of fire off my other units, so it served a purpose. The Lord Discordant packed a pretty big punch, but he did serve as further distraction from the rest of my army. Obliterators definitely pulled the most weight and were supported by the Sorcerer for Prescience and a 5+ FNP. About the Sorcerer, I decided in the end that I should keep with Prescience since I had to use the familiar strat every game to switch out warptime for it. Mutilators did pretty well, especially when kept as a Bile guard and then launched at an enemy and replaced by the second squad in deepstrike. The Poxbringer served better as a smiter and psychic ritual than healer, but I still feel like he was worth it.

 

Here's the List I ran:

 

HQs:

Fabius Bile

>Surgeon Acolyte

 

Lord Discordant [KHORNE]

>Baleflamer

>Master's Hound

>Talisman of Burning Blood

 

Jump Sorcerer [sLAANESH]

>Force Axe

>Delightful Agonies

>Warptime

 

Troops:

10 CSM [sLAANESH]

>7 Bolters

>2 Autocannons

>Champion Combi-bolter and chainsword

 

(X2)

5 CSM [KHORNE]

>4 Chainswords

>Champion with Bolter and Powerfist

 

Elites:

(X2)

3 Mutilators [NURGLE]

 

Greater Possessed [NURGLE]

>Helm of All-seeing

 

Fast:

(X2) 1 Chaos Spawn [sLAANESH]

 

3 Choas Spawn [sLAANESH]

 

Heavy:

(X2) 3 Obliterators [sLAANESH]

 

Defiler SLAANESH

>Twin Lascannon

>Defiler Scourge

 

Summon: Poxbringer

[KnightBoi]

How is possible that Greater Possesed has the relic?

[Doom Herald]

How is possible that Greater Possesed has the relic?

Greater Possessed is a Character.

[Are Verlo]

Played in a small 2,000 point tournament yesterday. I won 2/3 matches with the loss being against Chaos Knights in the first round. The mission secondary made the middle objective a higher priority and it took a few turns to start dropping the Knights. In the end I had all the Knights killed, so it was just his patrol detachment of renegades left, but by then he already had a big lead on points.

 

For the other two (Orks/Sororitas), I won but it was a little close in terms of points, though by the end I had the battlefield turned more in my favor. Lessons learned were to keep the Lord Discordant after light vehicles instead of big ones whenever possible to maximize his output. Obliterators are perfectly capable of hitting the big guys when they have room to drop. I also decided that Linebreaker is generally just not practical in a 2,000 point game for me, since I intended to use deepstriked and had trouble making room in the enemy deployment for them. I also decided that Psychic Ritual is AMAZING if the terrain is supportive of it. Generally with the havoc I was unleashing, my psychic ritual will have to be largely ignored.

 

Because I went second in all three games, the Defiler died pretty quickly, but he did draw a lot of fire off my other units, so it served a purpose. The Lord Discordant packed a pretty big punch, but he did serve as further distraction from the rest of my army. Obliterators definitely pulled the most weight and were supported by the Sorcerer for Prescience and a 5+ FNP. About the Sorcerer, I decided in the end that I should keep with Prescience since I had to use the familiar strat every game to switch out warptime for it. Mutilators did pretty well, especially when kept as a Bile guard and then launched at an enemy and replaced by the second squad in deepstrike. The Poxbringer served better as a smiter and psychic ritual than healer, but I still feel like he was worth it.

 

Here's the List I ran:

 

HQs:

Fabius Bile

>Surgeon Acolyte

 

Lord Discordant [KHORNE]

>Baleflamer

>Master's Hound

>Talisman of Burning Blood

 

Jump Sorcerer [sLAANESH]

>Force Axe

>Delightful Agonies

>Warptime

 

Troops:

10 CSM [sLAANESH]

>7 Bolters

>2 Autocannons

>Champion Combi-bolter and chainsword

 

(X2)

5 CSM [KHORNE]

>4 Chainswords

>Champion with Bolter and Powerfist

 

Elites:

(X2)

3 Mutilators [NURGLE]

 

Greater Possessed [NURGLE]

>Helm of All-seeing

 

Fast:

(X2) 1 Chaos Spawn [sLAANESH]

 

3 Choas Spawn [sLAANESH]

 

Heavy:

(X2) 3 Obliterators [sLAANESH]

 

Defiler SLAANESH

>Twin Lascannon

>Defiler Scourge

 

Summon: Poxbringer

Thanks for the summary. Creations of Bile looks fun to play. In your lists I guess Bile enhances the mutilators and then what units did he "improve"?

The 10 man CSM squad could do well with T5. With the B himself advancing I guess he could even catch up to some midfield oblits and give them T6?

 

I just got back from a tourament myself and I´m looking to play something new (5 game tourney and 4 prep-games is more than enoguh with the same list). Is there anything in your list you would change if going to another tournament?

[Doom Herald]

I always modified the 10-man CSM squad first. They were generally pretty well out in the open so that they could shoot their Autocannons. Truth be told, they never needed it though because the rest of my army took so much threat off of them that only once did anyone actually come after them. For objectives in my deployment zone, they did wonders. Then again, part of the reason no one really went after them might be that they were a T5, 10-man squad that wasn't particularly deadly if you stay away (though the Autocannons did help by pecking at things).

 

I did buff the Mutilators when fighting the Knights. In that game I chose to modify my roll with the Acolyte to give extra attacks instead of extra toughness. That caused them to take a big chunk out of a Knight. In large part due to them, there were two Knights that were only hanging on with the 1 extra wound from their Knight House trait after turn two.

 

The problem with buffing the Obliterators is that they are 105 points/model and enhancing has a chance to destroy one. I was less concerned with the Mutilators because they are cheaper. One way around this would be using Grandfather's Blessing strategem to bring the model back and Fleshy Abundance psychic power to restore some more wounds, but that would require them to be NURGLE, which in turn prevents the use of Endless Cacophony and Delightful Agonies on them. All in all, I think the Obliterators are much better being SLAANESH. In a pinch I would try to enhance them, but I wouldn't make it something I planned on.

 

As far as my list goes, there is nothing that stands out as I should have done different, rather I feel more mistakes were made at the table. I should have been more conscious of my Strategems, particularly Daemon Forge, Monstrous Visages, and The Master is Watching. I did really feel the absence of hit re-rolls from a Lord or DP, but I don't know how I'd squeeze one in.

 

I definitely would use Prescience instead of Warptime next time for my Sorcerer, or replace the Lord Discordant's add ons with Ravenous Biology and Living Carapace. With his current set up, he doesn't need Warptime and with Warptime it would make sense to make him more resilient. Given other units benefit more from Prescience and the more reliable mobility that the Lord Discordant's current set up gives, I'm leaning towards that option.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Are Verlo]

Perhaps one should just try it out and learn by doing in prep-games.

 

What i had envisioned was bikers and quite a few infantry squads (Berzerkers, Noise marines and even a 20 strong rubric squad).

 

So instead of just theory-crafting, it´s time to do field experiments!

[Doom Herald]

I'm sure Berserkers would be especially nasty, more so with Macrotensile Sinews. S6 before the Chainaxes, 7" move with advance and charge with +1 to both puting them at an average melee assault range of 19", maximum of 27" not counting Warptime.

 

When the new rules for wounds and weapons hit, I'm going to be looking at Raptors or Rubrics myself for the drop in Flamers to cut down enemy infantry. I was also looking at Chosen with 3 Thunderhammers.

[Ulfast]

So, anyone have tried them again in the last couple of weeks and have any intersting advice about them?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

If you buff your units well, they can put a hurting on some Adeptus Custodes. I lost the game but there were some moments I was able to frighten my friend with how fast and tough my units could be.

[Doom Herald]

I've used them in a 1k game against new Death Watch. I definitely think Oblits and Mutilators are the way to go. Try to buff a squads toughness before breaking them off from the rest of the group. I used a 10-man ranged CSM squad and buffed them first since they were holding back objectives. T5/T6 with Derman Chitination makes them a serious pain. A recurring problem for my opponent was that my toughness was high enough that he rarely needed less than 4s to wound and often needed 5s.

 

Mutilators are good scary bodyguards for Bile. I keep one with him and when it comes time to use Macrotensile Sinews to launch one at Deepstrikes or units that get too close, I drop a second unit to replace the first. Mutilators are in an odd spot in this army where they are either underestimated (because they know Mutilators usually suck) or they are assigned a higher threat priority than is due because people don't know much about them. They hit like a ton of bricks and have very good durability, especially if a GP or Herald is nearby. I run mine NURGLE always, the Grandfather's Blessing and Fleshy Abundance makes them even able to bring back a model and then heal it up.

 

If I'm not using Macrotensile Sinews on Mutilators, I use them on my 4-man Chainswords + Powerfist champ squads. They are quick enough with Macrotensiles that they can get into melee quick and make use of terrain to do so safely. They also can deal enough damage that they have to be addressed. They are good harassers while everyone else moves up the board or holds things down.

 

I did try a DP instead of my usual Disco Lord. I used the defensive relic (the name escapes me at the moment) and the Supreme Creation strat to give him the regenerate wounds/FNP. He was also Nurgle, so I used Miasma of Pestilence. -1 to hit, 2+ Sv, 5++, 6+ FNP, and two layers of wound regeneration made him very durable and he was already fast and a melee monster.

 

Lastly, Bile himself is no slouch. That pistol is nasty and he hits hard in melee. I wouldn't throw him into melee for giggles, but if he needs to be, I find that he definitely supports his point cost. People complain about needing to take him, but honestly, he's a great unit.

 

Stratagems are key for the army. Macrotensiles, Dermal Chitination, and The Master is Watching will be your lifeblood and are 1CP each. I think it's worth the initial CP to add the Helm of All-seeing in addition to the Defensive relic. I keep mine on my GP, he's often protected by the Mutilators anyway. Because of Dermal Chitination, if your opponent wants to kill an Infantry squad, after the first unit's shots against it, they are forced to choose to focus on the now tougher squad or to divert fire onto another less tough unit. Usually they do the latter. Make use of this with your shooty units and pair VotLW with The Master is watching for re-roll all hits with +1 to wounds. My 10-man Bolter/Autocannons squad managed to be a serious threat with this and Oblits are just overkilling with it.