Is 40k Grimdark, Noblebright or have we just grown-up

[MegaVolt87]

 

I think the indomitus crusade era needs a vast and detailed explanation on how it actually pulled the Imperium from the brink, to the present where it seems like its business as usual for the Imperium all things considered. That point in time was what, 100 years ? The fact its only now being addressed for 9th was a major failing of the 8th ed lore timeline which was rushed too far along to make much sense or reference point to a seemingly return to what looks like another stalemate in the current timeline. 

 

They aren't pulled from the brink though. The Imperium of Man has been on the brink for a very long time now and the whole Indomitus stuff only served to keep them not crumbling under the pressure of the new and bigger threats. Being on the brink IS business as usual for the Imperium.

 

 

Well yeah, to put it another way I want to see the journey of the rotted wooden fence that fell down to the half built new fence that is about the same in overall utility just different. The fence never gets finished but the broken bits still get replaced etc, so pretty much like the old fence but different issues/ journey. The Imperium went from oh no we are finished, to eh same old same old before we were almost finished. Indomnitus can fix this I believe, gives more value to ending up to the old state of affairs. 

[Vermintide]

It's worth keeping in mind that the Imperium has been in this state for at least the last 9000 years, that's kinda the point. Nothing is really changing much, and you can bet your bottom dollar it'll all end up more or less where it started, for all the progress the Imperium makes its enemies will take ground elsewhere. After all- There is only war.

 

The Indomitus Crusade is not some major advancement of the plotline, it's just another historical event among many we already know about. When I was new to the hobby, a lot of Marine fluff focused on the Tyrannic Wars, which set the lore backdrop for characters like Marneus Calegar. I remember the Sabbat Worlds crusade being mentioned a lot, and obviously the various Black Crusades.

 

In fact here's a list of just crusades alone:

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade

 

So what I mean is: Ten years from now you'll probably have codex entries for Indomitus Veterans and that'll be the background fluff for a bunch of named characters, in the same way the 13th Black Crusade is for Chiaphas Cain or whoever.

 

40k is a historical wargame ;)

Edited July 13, 2020 by Vermintide

[Marshal Rohr]

I really blame the timeline change for a lot of this. It got dismissed by authors and the studio as ‘well the warp is weird’. I’m convinced most of the ‘well it’s noblebright now’ is based on them coming out with the Indomitus Crusade first before really trying to dig in on the warzones and threats. That being said, the new Necron art from the article yesterday drives home it’s still in the ‘oh god oh god we’re screwed’ aesthetic that made 3rd so damn evocative. Edited July 13, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Boldthreat]

I think it’s a little bit me getting older... and maybe a little bit due to the way 8th Edition was handled narratively.

 

I still enjoy the new stories, and can anyone say that what was portrayed in Emperors Spears was any less grim than what came before it? I don’t think so.

 

I think what hindered 40k more than anything, and I’m noticing it now more than ever (because I’m older and paying more attention to what I like and what I don’t) is that the setting seems to be getting smaller. We have this huge galaxy to play in and we keep getting the same chapters and same heroes and it’s fun... but it hinders the realism for me (another statement that’s laughable when you think of it).

 

But then you get gems like Emperors Spears and it’s a huge breath of fresh air. But to be fair, ADB isn’t the only author working his tail off to give us that. I love Guy Haley’s Dark Imperium series as well... cannot wait for more or to see where this goes.

 

I think the setting allows you to take what you want from it. You can focus on the meta plot... but I think you will get bored there. Especially if you are older. Invent a sector, use the novels as inspiration and get with your friends to flesh out your little section of the galaxy. Encourage people to make their own armies and a story to go with it.

 

40k has not changed in that regard. In fact it’s more grim and ripe than ever. With the Imperium Nihilus it’s twice as bad.

[Volt]

Warhammer has rarely been what I would call "grimdark" despite its self-labeling outside of the actual crushing despair of third edition - 40k depends on what school children would think is "dark" as a crutch. Namely, everything revolves around death and only death, no other violent act or dysfunction that can be perpetrated upon another being and the violence swiftly loses its edge like an overtly applied scalpel. 8th edition and now 9th edition are not really "grimdark" because while they have the seeds of what could very well spawn it, we know it will never come to pass because GW is either too incompetent, too cowardly, or too greedy to go the extra necessary mile to make ends meet.

 

Rather we know that consequences matter little, so the hype surrounding Ghaz and Tyranids is nothing more than that. No consequences will happen, nobody will die, and no planets or populations we are made to care for will suffer, as the innocents that die in 40k are just faceless goons pulled from a hat to be thrown onto the story as garnishing. Even now, with the Imperium split in half, the actual consequences that should result from this do not happen. Nobody in Nihilus should have Primaris Space Marines, or even any contact with the southern Imperium at all. There should be zero bleedover, and they should be crippled and losing territory as much of the production centers lie to the galactic south, while their FTL has been rendered impotent thanks to the absence of the Astronomicon. Yet none of this has come to pass, because god forbid characters die and planets burn that little Timmy may have based an army around and cost GW a penny in sales.

 

 

It's a great worldview until the narrator starts to slip into sympathizing with a character that happens to be the protagonist, (which there are definitely shades of in some lore trends, more in overall treatment and narrative directions than in specific novels) and the noticeable segment that misses the point is an issue in itself.
 

Chaos as an overarching concept winning is a literal hell rather than metaphorical one, but let's be honest- on a case by case basis, being a Chaos worshipper has more prospect for escape than the Imperial counterparts even with peak "the Imperium isn't so bad really". (While Ciaphas Cain is skipping around, that planet's people are living in misery just offscreen with indirect mentions of just what the police state is doing to them and what he considers normal.)

 

Chaos, though? Is (skewed) meritocracy by way of warp-worship and backstabbing what the Imperium insists on treating it as? Not really on the "out of focus" level that isn't spikey bolters and dinobots- and that's without looking at the outliers like random renegade #2342525 that may or may not follow the generic Chaos pattern of sticking spikes on everything and getting out the ritual knives.

 

Well, the closest to actual, reliable improvement is honestly non-theistic secession or flat out signing up with the Tau.

We know in detail what Chaos is like, it's literally the antithesis of civilization. The problem in the first place is that regardless of how nightmarish the Imperium is, every action it takes is justified by the very existence of Chaos, in regards to humans. Obviously nobody but humans has no dog in the Imperium's race besides possibly the Emperor being able to put down the Chaos Gods at some point in the future via half baked resurrection plot threads, otherwise it's just Chaos gobbles up everything.

 

Part of the issue with 40k is that Chaos is a narrative cancer, and was a mistake to add on to the setting in the first place back in Rogue Trader because of how constricting it is. As long as Chaos exists, there are shades of grey and the absolute pit of evil. As long as Chaos exists, rebelling against the Imperium is a utilitarian evil because it endangers the survival of the species by chipping away at the structure that holds Chaos back. The only way to even morally justify a rebellion against the Imperium is in case of another religious schism, where the rebels actually have a feasible exit strategy to resurrecting the Emperor or making something like him such as the Horusians or Star Child. Otherwise it's just un-pragmatic suicide.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Volt

[MARK0SIAN]

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

 

When everything is connected, even tangentially, to the same central story it no longer feels like people are insignificant cogs in a vast galaxy. The universe used to be a sandbox where every event or story could play out in its own anonymous corner without affecting or being affected by events elsewhere. That’s no longer the case for the most part and it has definitely made the place feel different for me.

[Azekai]

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

I think you have really hit on something. Military actions are complex. They have a lot of moving parts, and often have a lot of relatively unknown groups involved. I think the Eye of Terror campaign did a good job of reflecting this, with lists of guard regiments and space marine chapters I had never heard of, not to mention all the crazy warbands making up the chaos forces. Similarly, the FW books like Vraks, et al. do a good job of fleshing out the background and the stakes, as well as the various and sundry involved parties.

 

Much of the new fluff is just the same few big names clashing again and again. It just feels so poorly fleshed out, lacking in granularity. The Ultramarines are a large chapter, and Guilliman is influential and powerful, but c'mon, they can't be everywhere. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Azekai

[Volt]

 

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

I think you have really hit on something. Military actions are complex. They have a lot of moving parts, and often have a lot of relatively unknown groups involved. I think the Eye of Terror campaign did a good job of reflecting this, with lists of guard regiments and space marine chapters I had never heard of, not to mention all the crazy warbands making up the chaos forces. Similarly, the FW books like Vraks, et al do a good job of fleshing out the background and the stakes, as well as the various and sundry involved parties.

 

Much of the new fluff is just the same few big names clashing again and again. It just feels so poorly fleshed out, lacking in granularity. The Ultramarines and are a large chapter, and Guilleman is influential and powerful, but c'mon, they can't be everywhere. 

 

Don't forget how FTL should be slowed to a crawl in Nihilus yet Guilliman is able to jump all over Nihilus to dump Primaris everywhere, and make it back to the southern half of the Imperium to continue his campaigns. In a century. In a universe where "bad FTL days" means it could take literal decades to get somewhere.

[Azekai]

 

 

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

I think you have really hit on something. Military actions are complex. They have a lot of moving parts, and often have a lot of relatively unknown groups involved. I think the Eye of Terror campaign did a good job of reflecting this, with lists of guard regiments and space marine chapters I had never heard of, not to mention all the crazy warbands making up the chaos forces. Similarly, the FW books like Vraks, et al do a good job of fleshing out the background and the stakes, as well as the various and sundry involved parties.

 

Much of the new fluff is just the same few big names clashing again and again. It just feels so poorly fleshed out, lacking in granularity. The Ultramarines and are a large chapter, and Guilleman is influential and powerful, but c'mon, they can't be everywhere. 

 

Don't forget how FTL should be slowed to a crawl in Nihilus yet Guilliman is able to jump all over Nihilus to dump Primaris everywhere, and make it back to the southern half of the Imperium to continue his campaigns. In a century. In a universe where "bad FTL days" means it could take literal decades to get somewhere.

 

I wouldn't even be mad if this was a showcase of Guilliman's masterful planning; if he was allocating resources and sending reinforcements with rapier precision, that would be cool- but even Guilliman doesn't command the insane tides of the Warp, and often he is personally leading the charge. 

 

Remember that time General Patton was at the forefront of battle in both the European and Pacific theaters? No? By upping the scale to include half the galaxy, riven by supposedly baleful, nigh-impassable warpstorms, it just seems silly. 

[Lexington]

I bring this up every time this topic rears its head, but "grimdark" originated as a joke, a sort of snide insult towards the most indulgent and trashy expressions of 3rd/4th Edition's unhappy milieu. Eventually, some jokers decided that, no, it was aspirational, because of course they did. The 40K fan community, already a fairly dumb place, has been even dumber for it ever since.

 

There's a lot that's actually wrong with 40K. It's long been in a descent towards the mind-numbing sterility of a modern franchise. There's a tendency towards the incestuous as the crew that originally fashioned 40K out of cheap comics, literature of all brow-types, history, punk culture and a little bit of tape have been replaced by...well, 40K fans, who try with all their might to shove more 40K into it, which unsurprisingly makes everything very one-dimensional. Then there's the Gathering Storm and everything after it, which up-ended the basic "man in the shadow of gods" concept of the setting. "Gods punch each other" just doesn't have the same ring.

 

So, yeah. 40K's less mature, a less vital, and definitely a lot dumber than it has been in the past. "Darkness" isn't the issue, tho.

[Gederas]

Also another thing:

The fact that the setting HAS progress, HAS change, means it's no longer Grimdark.

 

This is from 1d4chan (I know, I know... ), but they have a good summary of it:

• A NOBLE setting isn't one where everyone is good, more like one where people are active. The actions of a single hero can change the world, and a single big villain can ruin it: there are important people, who are so either by birth, rank or sheer willpower, and every single one of these people MATTER.
• In a GRIM world, no matter what you do, an individual can't secure more than an individual victory, if even that, because the rest of the world is too big/scared/powerless/selfish to act upon his impulse.
• A BRIGHT world is one full of opportunity, of wondrous sights to behold. It doesn't mean that it has to be MLP, it can be dangerous, but your first instinct when looking at a new location should be awe and wonder: people may adventure to save the world, but they leave town with a smile upon their face, eager to see what comes next. The shadow of Risk is largely erased by the glint of Adventure. In a bright world, it's quite possible for people to go on adventure just for the hell of it, since the journey is its own reward. Resurrection, or at least means to heal grave injuries, is usually accessible, to counterbalance the fact that the risks out there are real.
• A DARK world is one where life sucks, and something or someone is poised to kill everybody else in the story - whether it be demon overlords, 'nids, or even the lack of water, if this threat has its way everyone dies and they die for good. If you lose an arm, you play a cripple. In the extreme cases, even when you win a fight, your career is over (i.e. gangrene). This means that, even though people may be ready to help (noble), they'll need a damn good reason to do so, since stepping out of line is so dangerous (dark).

The fact that specific people (usually in the forms of massively powerful characters. IE: Abaddon, Guilliman, Magnus, Mortarion) have caused change in-setting means that 40k is no longer Grimdark. It's now moving more towards a "Nobledark" setting. Because people CAN change things.

 

It's no longer a stagnant hell where nothing changes and everything sucks. It's now a hell where everything sucks but things CAN be changed, at great cost and said change is nearly only done by great people.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Gederas

[chapter master 454]

Interesting points Gederas.

 

So that would mean when we had failbadon it was grimdark because not even a powerhouse could change things. Not even heroes like Yarrick OR Ghaz could change things on armageddon.

GW has changed that so that big characters can cause change and are actively returning big players do so. All these alluded to characters, all these hints of their return now hitting and here we are, the universe is changing but for how long? Kind of curious how long until change turns back to stagnation.

 

Also I would also like to point out that Chaos isn't a narrative black hole. Ironically it is as ordered as it is unordered. There is hierarchy within daemon culture (which they do have) along with various things they attend to and do. Chaos is a manifestation of emotion to a pure form and is rooted from base emotions of rational creatures thus must maintain some sense of order to itself to maintain. Otherwise why do Bloodletters all look so similar? How can we classify the difference between Horrors and Flamers? Chaos is the foil against the Imperium, challenging it and always presenting the notion of "is it really better?"

I can't remember the book but I enjoyed the concept of it where Chaos was positioned in a "noble" position against a corrupt Imperial Eccleisarch. The Ecclesiarch wasn't corrupted by Chaos or Xenos methods but by human desires. He was corrupted by greed, pure greed. It was an interesting concept of a character who was the villain was still pure by all measures of human standards but just corrupted by being human, by being ordinary. Sort of put an interesting idea of that nothing is pure in 40k and nothing pure can survive within without being corrupted ether by others or itself.

 

I would like to see more of that, characters fighting their own desires and sins that are born of themselves, not of Chaos or Xenos because those just become scapegoats. A character who has carnal desires or is overly prideful but is in no-way worshipping slannesh. There is a narrative laziness that chaos can offer but again, it isn't bad to have. However it can be used as a Pseudo-Villain to play on someones preconceptions of what is happening. I found it quite startling to consider that Chaos was...Cleansing an impure servant of the Emperor (by design or not. The Eccleisarch is offed by a failed chaos marine creation realising their end was at had ether by battle or their own body just crumpling over from not handling the augmentations but they never knew what they were becoming really).

 

To be honest, a big thing I want to see is another loyalist Primarch come back and act as a balance for Gulliman. Someone who wouldn't just accept his orders but not outright sabotage the Imperium. Sort of how I wish Mortarion and Magnus would interact more, both are Daemon Primarchs not really of choice but more of need from what I understand, both ran having realised what they had done. I do remember hearing that Mortarion isn't exactly seen as the exemplar of Nurgle one would expect of a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle. Though Magnus I believe is doing quite well (I am one of the "magnus did nothing wrong" camp and I hate Leman Russ because screw his Space Wolves...I just don't like them. Fight me, 2k points Dawn of War deployment!).

 

Lots of change and lots of possible avenues to go with. Sadly I feel lots of it gets squandered by authors wanting to ether one up each other like DC and Marvel Comic writers or they just want to do their own things which runs completely against everything else set out.

[Lay]

 

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

I think you have really hit on something. Military actions are complex. They have a lot of moving parts, and often have a lot of relatively unknown groups involved. I think the Eye of Terror campaign did a good job of reflecting this, with lists of guard regiments and space marine chapters I had never heard of, not to mention all the crazy warbands making up the chaos forces. Similarly, the FW books like Vraks, et al. do a good job of fleshing out the background and the stakes, as well as the various and sundry involved parties.

 

Much of the new fluff is just the same few big names clashing again and again. It just feels so poorly fleshed out, lacking in granularity. The Ultramarines are a large chapter, and Guilliman is influential and powerful, but c'mon, they can't be everywhere. 

 

 

40k has always been pulp, but IMO historical wargaming and military history have always been a prominent influence in the early writing due to the nature of the hobby. For example, it's why there's British desert rats and US 'nam soldiers in space, or why two Space Marine Legions were erased from history in the manner of the roman legions XVII, XVIII and XIX.

 

"In writing this book I wanted to create  a solid piece of 40k history. We have a lot of background for 40K, races, troop types, characters etc, that allow players to fight each other in tabletop games, but not a lot of real history. By this I mean history with dates, locations, people and places. Details of how events happened, where and why. I am a keen military-history enthusiast (like many at GW), and find such details fascinating. I wanted to get some of that detail into 40K and into this book. Details of who fought who, when, where and how. What equipment was used? How was it deployed? How did it perform?"

- Warwick Kinrade, Introduction of Imperial Armour 3 (2005)

 

I think that nowadays this influence is waning and the setting is being turned into an IP that doesn't define itself primarily as the backdrop of a miniature wargame. It's becoming something where toys, comics, video games, novels or even movies are on the same level as the game, rather than just promotional tie-in media. This in turn leads to more traditional, character driven stories and narratives, and an emergence of "flagship characters" for the IP.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lay

[Lexington]

To be honest, a big thing I want to see is another loyalist Primarch come back and act as a balance for Gulliman. Someone who wouldn't just accept his orders but not outright sabotage the Imperium. Sort of how I wish Mortarion and Magnus would interact more, both are Daemon Primarchs not really of choice but more of need from what I understand, both ran having realised what they had done. I do remember hearing that Mortarion isn't exactly seen as the exemplar of Nurgle one would expect of a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle. Though Magnus I believe is doing quite well (I am one of the "magnus did nothing wrong" camp and I hate Leman Russ because screw his Space Wolves...I just don't like them. Fight me, 2k points Dawn of War deployment!).

 

Lots of change and lots of possible avenues to go with. Sadly I feel lots of it gets squandered by authors wanting to ether one up each other like DC and Marvel Comic writers or they just want to do their own things which runs completely against everything else set out.

 

Really, really don't want this - Guilliman's return and the renewed prominence of the Daemon Primarchs have already done way more than enough to make the universe seem small in the ways others have already noted earlier. The setting is bigger than the Primarchs and their boring family drama.

[Scammel]

We know in detail what Chaos is like, it's literally the antithesis of civilization. The problem in the first place is that regardless of how nightmarish the Imperium is, every action it takes is justified by the very existence of Chaos, in regards to humans. Obviously nobody but humans has no dog in the Imperium's race besides possibly the Emperor being able to put down the Chaos Gods at some point in the future via half baked resurrection plot threads, otherwise it's just Chaos gobbles up everything.

I deeply, deeply love the aesthetic and themes of Chaos, but there's no denying that the antagonists of the setting do a lot to defang the notion that the Imperium is a credible dystopian critique. Big Brother is watching you... because you might actually be harbouring thoughts that make you a target for daemonic possession. Technological advancement is kept in a state of artificial stasis... because sentient AI actually did almost wipe out mankind. Genetic purity is fetishised by a galactic totalitarian state... because Genestealers might actually eat all of your faces.

 

There's a lot resting on the last few Heresy books to prove that 40k actually was in any way avoidable, and not almost entirely the product of malign actors.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

For me, the current universe feels very different tonally than it did in the past in part because it feels a lot smaller. All the stories, events etc are connected around a central narrative in a way that they never have been before.

I think you have really hit on something. Military actions are complex. They have a lot of moving parts, and often have a lot of relatively unknown groups involved. I think the Eye of Terror campaign did a good job of reflecting this, with lists of guard regiments and space marine chapters I had never heard of, not to mention all the crazy warbands making up the chaos forces. Similarly, the FW books like Vraks, et al do a good job of fleshing out the background and the stakes, as well as the various and sundry involved parties.

 

Much of the new fluff is just the same few big names clashing again and again. It just feels so poorly fleshed out, lacking in granularity. The Ultramarines and are a large chapter, and Guilleman is influential and powerful, but c'mon, they can't be everywhere. 

 

Don't forget how FTL should be slowed to a crawl in Nihilus yet Guilliman is able to jump all over Nihilus to dump Primaris everywhere, and make it back to the southern half of the Imperium to continue his campaigns. In a century. In a universe where "bad FTL days" means it could take literal decades to get somewhere.

 

I wouldn't even be mad if this was a showcase of Guilliman's masterful planning; if he was allocating resources and sending reinforcements with rapier precision, that would be cool- but even Guilliman doesn't command the insane tides of the Warp, and often he is personally leading the charge. 

 

Remember that time General Patton was at the forefront of battle in both the European and Pacific theaters? No? By upping the scale to include half the galaxy, riven by supposedly baleful, nigh-impassable warpstorms, it just seems silly. 

 

 

Actually Guilliman for the most part does NOT lead the charge. It's something that gets mentioned a few times in his books. He's so busy optimizing everything behind the scenes that he has no time to bring his might personally to the battlefield. If he would, everything he worked so hard on to improve would collapse.

He went around shortly after he came back to fight Chaos back and support chapters in need with Primaris, however that Crusade got aborted and declared as success to raise morale because it simply was too big to do in one go and he couldn't afford to be just on the battlefield.

[Panzer]

As for the universe feeling small ... only if your only source of fluff are campaigns and Codexes, really. We already know that the storytelling of the main studio is shallow and lackluster. Nothing new about that. However with the Black Library we get tons of stories that happen completely unrelated and away from all these big campaigns as well. Read those if you think the universe feels too small.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Panzer

[Bryan Blaire]

I think as soon as we start using 4chan definitions of elements, we’ve already lost. :lol:

 

Lexington is right - grimdark started out as a joke (all of 40K was at least originally satire if not outright intending to be funny, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell) - sadly people took it seriously and are wanting to push it farther. I said it before, but if you think 40K is an exemplar or even a good example of “grim” or “dark”, you’re just not putting enough effort in - and 40K never will be, it’s not meant to be and yes, now seems to actively be moving in a different direction. Ah well - it wasn’t that thing in the first place.

[Volt]

 

To be honest, a big thing I want to see is another loyalist Primarch come back and act as a balance for Gulliman. Someone who wouldn't just accept his orders but not outright sabotage the Imperium. Sort of how I wish Mortarion and Magnus would interact more, both are Daemon Primarchs not really of choice but more of need from what I understand, both ran having realised what they had done. I do remember hearing that Mortarion isn't exactly seen as the exemplar of Nurgle one would expect of a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle. Though Magnus I believe is doing quite well (I am one of the "magnus did nothing wrong" camp and I hate Leman Russ because screw his Space Wolves...I just don't like them. Fight me, 2k points Dawn of War deployment!).

 

Lots of change and lots of possible avenues to go with. Sadly I feel lots of it gets squandered by authors wanting to ether one up each other like DC and Marvel Comic writers or they just want to do their own things which runs completely against everything else set out.

 

Really, really don't want this - Guilliman's return and the renewed prominence of the Daemon Primarchs have already done way more than enough to make the universe seem small in the ways others have already noted earlier. The setting is bigger than the Primarchs and their boring family drama.

 

The only way Primarchs coming back could be good for the setting is if it leads to a full scale civil war and permanent breakup of the Imperium into shattered successor states to add some goddamn diversity to factions that can actually engage in interesting diplomatic and economical actions than HURDUR ENDLESS WAR, which is probably what is really rotting 40k. You can't keep a setting going with perpetual war between everybody without people getting jaded and losing interest eventually because there are no other kinds of stories to be told. The various races of 40k don't actually bleed into each other as societies as polities normally do due to the narrative choices the designers chose after 1-2e to push the wargame and grimderp, without taking into account how limiting that actually is for storytelling.

 

If all Humans, Eldar, Tau, Orks, and Minor Xenos do is fight each other, with any form of cohabitation impossible, you completely abort essentially every human aspect of warfare that makes war an interesting behavior in the first place. Which is something at least Priestly seemed to get as a history buff, as originally the humans and xenos were not so laughably hostile to the point of shooting each other on sight. It results in the wars of the setting devolving into a child's conception of warfare and why it is waged, thinking it's merely born of inherent hatred instead of resources, diplomatic implosion, instigation/intrigue, religious differences, succession disputes, border wars, the idea of the marcher lord, etc.

 

It has resulted in the franchise as a whole being about one thing, wars, but it's the same wars and there literally is never a conclusion, nor can be with how GW has set themselves up. They've written themselves into a corner unless they man up and actually do something drastic that might rile up the fanbase by going with an actual civil war to introduce some depth to the setting beyond the wading pool that GW likes. Although what I'd really want is an Age of Apostasy on roids where the Imperium shatters along religious lines with no Primarch in sight. Bringing any Primarch was a mistake as comes the issue with GW's fetish for superhumans - they kill agency for lesser shakers and movers, centralizing the narrative around themselves by denying their surroundings the ability to be powerful. Space Marines are already bad enough with how much of the franchise revolves around the marine to the detriment of other parts of the Imperium.

[MegaVolt87]

I think fans have scared off GW for temp alliances with the Imperium and other factions. People lost their   when BA and necrons teamed up or when Calgar didn't bomb the Tau from orbit with an exterminatus after they didn't need to team up anymore. I think most people are ok with the HURDUR ENDLESS WAR to be honest, Imperium vs the galaxy. I would like to see more frenemies match ups, rivalries though and develop myself. 

[Lucerne]

 

 

To be honest, a big thing I want to see is another loyalist Primarch come back and act as a balance for Gulliman. Someone who wouldn't just accept his orders but not outright sabotage the Imperium. Sort of how I wish Mortarion and Magnus would interact more, both are Daemon Primarchs not really of choice but more of need from what I understand, both ran having realised what they had done. I do remember hearing that Mortarion isn't exactly seen as the exemplar of Nurgle one would expect of a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle. Though Magnus I believe is doing quite well (I am one of the "magnus did nothing wrong" camp and I hate Leman Russ because screw his Space Wolves...I just don't like them. Fight me, 2k points Dawn of War deployment!).

 

Lots of change and lots of possible avenues to go with. Sadly I feel lots of it gets squandered by authors wanting to ether one up each other like DC and Marvel Comic writers or they just want to do their own things which runs completely against everything else set out.

 

Really, really don't want this - Guilliman's return and the renewed prominence of the Daemon Primarchs have already done way more than enough to make the universe seem small in the ways others have already noted earlier. The setting is bigger than the Primarchs and their boring family drama.

 

The only way Primarchs coming back could be good for the setting is if it leads to a full scale civil war and permanent breakup of the Imperium into shattered successor states to add some goddamn diversity to factions that can actually engage in interesting diplomatic and economical actions than HURDUR ENDLESS WAR, which is probably what is really rotting 40k. You can't keep a setting going with perpetual war between everybody without people getting jaded and losing interest eventually because there are no other kinds of stories to be told. The various races of 40k don't actually bleed into each other as societies as polities normally do due to the narrative choices the designers chose after 1-2e to push the wargame and grimderp, without taking into account how limiting that actually is for storytelling.

 

If all Humans, Eldar, Tau, Orks, and Minor Xenos do is fight each other, with any form of cohabitation impossible, you completely abort essentially every human aspect of warfare that makes war an interesting behavior in the first place. Which is something at least Priestly seemed to get as a history buff, as originally the humans and xenos were not so laughably hostile to the point of shooting each other on sight. It results in the wars of the setting devolving into a child's conception of warfare and why it is waged, thinking it's merely born of inherent hatred instead of resources, diplomatic implosion, instigation/intrigue, religious differences, succession disputes, border wars, the idea of the marcher lord, etc.

 

It has resulted in the franchise as a whole being about one thing, wars, but it's the same wars and there literally is never a conclusion, nor can be with how GW has set themselves up. They've written themselves into a corner unless they man up and actually do something drastic that might rile up the fanbase by going with an actual civil war to introduce some depth to the setting beyond the wading pool that GW likes. Although what I'd really want is an Age of Apostasy on roids where the Imperium shatters along religious lines with no Primarch in sight. Bringing any Primarch was a mistake as comes the issue with GW's fetish for superhumans - they kill agency for lesser shakers and movers, centralizing the narrative around themselves by denying their surroundings the ability to be powerful. Space Marines are already bad enough with how much of the franchise revolves around the marine to the detriment of other parts of the Imperium.

 

Ironically there are interesting stories to be told with Guilliman...but that requires nuanced internal conflict rather than "THE ENLIGHTENED GUILLIMAN AND CAWL" vs "those fuddy duddies who don't like new things".

 

If nothing else, Guilliman's return and consolidation should cause vicious shadow wars within the Inquisitorial factions in the sense of "actual wars, not just attempted palace coups on Terra". Everyone from Istvaanians to Xenos Hybris should be claiming vindication or going mad from paranoia and we're long overdue for at least a few attempted assassinations by Imperial "loyalists" for some of the many possible reasons.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lucerne

[Gederas]

I think as soon as we start using 4chan definitions of elements, we’ve already lost.

 

Lexington is right - grimdark started out as a joke (all of 40K was at least originally satire if not outright intending to be funny, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell) - sadly people took it seriously and are wanting to push it farther. I said it before, but if you think 40K is an exemplar or even a good example of “grim” or “dark”, you’re just not putting enough effort in - and 40K never will be, it’s not meant to be and yes, now seems to actively be moving in a different direction. Ah well - it wasn’t that thing in the first place.

I mean.... Grimdark and Noblebright ARE 4chan elements, at least the common definitions used for them. So this thread lost from the get-go.... :lol:

[Bryan Blaire]

I mean.... Grimdark and Noblebright ARE 4chan elements, at least the common definitions used for them. So this thread lost from the get-go.... :lol:

Wouldn’t know - I thought “grimdark” was just a portmanteau of “grim darkness” (of the far future and all that) and I had never heard anyone use “noblebright” until here...

 

I guess if they are both actually from there, then yeah.

[Gederas]

I mean.... Grimdark and Noblebright ARE 4chan elements, at least the common definitions used for them. So this thread lost from the get-go....

Wouldn’t know - I thought “grimdark” was just a portmanteau of “grim darkness” (of the far future and all that) and I had never heard anyone use “noblebright” until here...

 

I guess if they are both actually from there, then yeah.

Like most things/memes common to 40k's fandom, it started on 4chan's /tg/ board. Grimdark is a portmanteau of "grim darkness" (of the far future), yes, but the definition of it that we all know came from 4chan.

 

The term "Noblebright" resulted from 4chan trying to make an easy reference word for something the opposite of "Grimdark".

Edited July 15, 2020 by Gederas

[Bryan Blaire]

Guess I'm glad I've never been to/familiar with 4chan if that's where all the idiocy in the fandom comes from... :lol: No wonder there are so many misconceptions.