Is 40k Grimdark, Noblebright or have we just grown-up

[MegaVolt87]

Guess I'm glad I've never been to/familiar with 4chan if that's where all the idiocy in the fandom comes from... No wonder there are so many misconceptions.

 

Well we are stuck with such terms, for better or worse until more technical/ academic ones emerge. I put grimderp as a prime candidate of a concept to have a new title to acknowledge that concept. 

[Gederas]

Guess I'm glad I've never been to/familiar with 4chan if that's where all the idiocy in the fandom comes from... No wonder there are so many misconceptions.

Well we are stuck with such terms, for better or worse until more technical/ academic ones emerge. I put grimderp as a prime candidate of a concept to have a new title to acknowledge that concept.

Which is also a term from /tg/...

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Gederas

[Roland Durendal]

Lots of good points in here that I’m definitely enjoying. To cast my quick thoughts in:

 

I began reading the codexes and rule books back in 3rd, but didn’t begin to play until 5th, so I’ve been awash in the “grimdark” style of setting since inception. With that said, I think the biggest shift, and one for the worse in my opinion, was the shift in 7th to 8th and the introduction of gods/primaries/god-like legendary heros into the setting. As someone mentioned before, the setting was always tense and enjoyable BECAUSE it felt like characters and organizations could never truly effect large scale change, and that for all they did, all the relative “good” they did, it didn’t matter. Some say that leads to a form of apathy, and I agree, but it also makes stories that much more exciting on a smaller scale. What I mean is, sure the Imperium may not ever turn back the tide of Chaos (or really any threat), but when you read about the lone victory in saving Planet X when you know the rest of that system was utterly destroyed by Enemy Y, you feel a little bit of contentment or consolation, even if you know at the back of your mind in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter.

 

As for the morality issues of that “grimdark” narrative, I actually think it was better because there were no heroes, no real hope, and life was very Hobbesian in this narrative, ie nasty, brutish, and short. It was a narrative world full of antiheroes, which some may find depressing because, as a reader and consumer of literature, you never truly get satisfaction or resolution within the story. In my mind though that’s what made it great. As I like to say, “There’s no such thing as a knight in shining armor. A knight in shining armor is one who’s never fought or gone to war, and thus isn’t truly a knight.”

 

Yet the change to 8th though changed that in my opinion. There was no more sense of foreboding or mystery or impending doom. Gods/Primaris/Epic heroes were here and leading significant change In the story/narrative/background. It almost felt very deus ex machina, only the Deus was visible and talking to people. As someone mentioned earlier about living in the shadow of gods, prior to the shift the narrative was very Lovecraftian in my view, in that you had these ominous and epic monsters/beings/forces that could wipe out humanity that lurked just beyond the realm of reality/space/imagination but that were a constant threat characters/civilization had to defend against. That threatening veil has been lifted and with it a sense of urgency or mystery. All is revealed; all is possible. And what remains is Gods and God-like beings walking amongst the mortals and shaping things.

 

And one solid example I have of this shift is with the Void Dragon. Prior to now, he was rumored to be slumbering under Mars and that was always the fun debate and discussion. The theories of was he under mars? Were the AdMech secretly worshipping him? What will happen if he awakes? All of that is kinda gone now, and will most certainly be answered here in the coming weeks now that he’s been revealed as a model. Stuff like that ruins the background and narrative becuse, again, they’re removing that veil of mystery and answering all these big questions and theories. What’s next? Are they going to have the Outsider return as well?

Edited July 16, 2020 by Roland Durendal

[Bryan Blaire]

The Void Dragon shard is just that - a shard. It's not the whole Void Dragon C'tan. There's still a question about just "how much" or what part of the Void Dragon may slumber in the Labyrinth area on Mars, if any - there could still be some portion there.

 

I do agree that there are too many answers being given out, and while there are questions coming up, it feels like we just have to wait a bit and any new questions will also be answered.

[War Angel]

How is noble the opposite of grim? It should be pleasant bright. Wh40k is not pleasant bright?

[Gederas]

How is noble the opposite of grim? It should be pleasant bright. Wh40k is not pleasant bright?

It's one of those things we don't question. It might not be the correct word, but it's the one everyone knows.

 

 

Like Black Templars thinking the crotch flaps their units wear are Tabards :lol:

[Evil Eye]

Lexington's hit the nail on the head with the nature of grimdark and the incestuous nature of the 40K team's composition (and also the dangers of properties being run by former fans). But one thing I think is worth mentioning is the unfortunate position of 40K in the modern "nerd property" socio-political climate. In today's world, with the advent of mass "cancellations", hashtag boycotts, individuals who shall not be named and the general rise of over-sensitivity and intolerance of differing worldview, GW are in a bit of a tight spot. Obviously they want to appeal to their fandom and keep 40K relatively grimdark- even in the early days of RT and 2nd Edition, the 41st Millennium was not a place you really wanted to live- but at the same time, with the aforementioned nameless individuals acting like heroes that aren't flawless representations of everything they like are tantamount to a hate crime, and with these people being VERY prone to mobbing up and harassing people until they are "deplatformed", GW can't really make anything happen in the setting which is actually horrific rather than just generically bleak, for fear of upsetting the wrong people. The result is an overly sterile, rather dull setting filled with "informed darkness"- we are told everything sucks and that things are bad, but we're not really shown it because depicting bad things might hurt people's feelings.

 

Case in point, the Space Marines, and their spikier treacherous brethren. Ideally (IMO of course) the average loyalist Space Marine is a warrior monk on the dark precipice between superhuman and post-human; the truly good Astartes are those that manage to hold onto their humanity- their hearts are filled with hate for the enemies of the Imperium, but love for the people they protect. But not all Astartes are truly good. Some are so inured to emotion by centuries of service that they care for little beyond the deaths of the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Others take far too much glee in their service, and have become little more than living weapons. Others still are too naive for their role, and are swiftly broken by the atrocities they witness- and commit- in the name of the Emperor. Even the best of the Astartes are still terrifying to behold in battle, and far from nice, friendly armoured giants who happen to save people from aliens. They're not superheroes, they are Angels of Death. Likewise, the Chaos Space Marines are more than just strawmen for things the authour doesn't like- they were once Space Marines, noble defenders of humanity who were tempted, broken or just worn down into the service of the literal forces of hell. Just like loyal Space Marines, they have flaws, personalities, ambitions, hopes and fears. They are capable of unspeakable acts of violence, brutality and cruelty, because they were once human rather than in spite of it.

 

Of course, in today's environment, a Space Marine who does terrible things in his service, either because he is not as noble as he'd like to think or because he had no other choice, would cause uproar amongst certain groups. Likewise, a worshiper of Chaos who commits atrocities considered too "extreme" for mainstream culture- or worse still is shown to still have some degree of humanity left in him- will attract similar outcry. The end result is that we end up with boring two-dimensional heroes who never really have to do anything other than fire boltguns at the enemy, who are themselves two-dimensional villains whose evil acts tell us they're bad guys but never leave us feeling anything other than apathy.

Whilst I have no desire to see a return to the 3rd/4th edition ALWAYS GRIMDARK ALL THE TIME status quo (I'm glad to see Ghazghkul Thraka's best mate Makari make a triumphant return for example) I do think the sheer...sterility of the modern fluff is rather depressing and not what 40K is supposed to be about. I'm not asking for every page of every codex to be filled with excessively vile descriptions of characters being mutilated in eye-watering detail, but more of that "visceral" quality that makes 40K's better written fluff great would definitely be nice. Imagine a story where a Space Marine is confronted with an unknowingly Genestealer-infected but otherwise innocent child; can he bring himself to mercy-kill this youth? Something like that, sufficiently well written, could be both immensely moving and also utterly soul-crushing.

 

TLDR: 40K is trying to be grimdark AND appeal to people who hate grimdark at the same time, and is suffering for it.

[Bryan Blaire]

IIRC, one of the GW/BL rules was “No outright depiction of violence/brutality against an innocent.” That happened to be stated a while back, so it isn’t any kind of reaction to current situations. It may have been a little more subtle than that and there may be an internal “what defines an innocent” that the authors can fall back on, because clearly things can be alluded to/responded to, but my take was the “in front of the camera” depiction wasn’t something that GW had really ever been interested in having, at least not for a while - I never read much Black Library back in 3rd/4th Edition, so don’t know if it happened back then.

[Lexington]

TLDR: 40K is trying to be grimdark AND appeal to people who hate grimdark at the same time, and is suffering for it.

 

Ehhh, can't say I really agree, here. There's a lot of activity in the 40K community vis-à-vis the culture wars of the moment (most of which is, understandably, not a topic for discussion here on the venerable B&C), but I think this trend goes back further. Like...a lot further. To make things even more complicated, it's not even been consistent. You'd hear a lot of the same complaints all the way back in 2nd Edition, even. I'd place a marker for the modern trend sometime back in late 4th Edition, or early 5th, but even that's been kind of unstable. A D-B's Night Lords trilogy hit right in the middle of that time frame, and they're almost exactly the novels you describe here.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think much of any of the change in 40K has to do with recent world events or politics. It's part marketing, part expansion, part corporatization, and all of it goes back further than this particular moment.

[Lord_Starscream]

I think for me, the most disturbing element of the modern backstory, is it trying to portray the Emperor in a better light than before. As odd as that may sound, of course, lol, I think it's kind of a problem. I generally don't like politics in my games, I don't want that. But the Emperor of Mankind is the worst despot in history, who has committed atrocities not really comparable. The annihilation of hundreds, of thousands, of alien species. The annihilation of whole human cultures, and the genocide of subjugation of those who lived in the places that the Imperium now treads. The legacy of violence and genocide he's left in the galaxy cannot be understated, or the fact that his hatred of aliens stems from the same kind of language and vendetta's a certain 20th century country was involved in.

 

I love 40k, I even like that part of the backstory, but it seems creepy and dirty to me when the setting begins setting up the Emperor in a heroic light. Or when fans unironically say things like "He had to do it, was the best thing for mankind." I mean, not only is the examination of "err, was it?" never really approached, or its implications on the setting, but the truth is there is never an attempt to steer away from what is an ideology very much based on bigotry, and all sorts of isms, that are not only repulsive by today's standards, but by defending them, really creates an uncomfortable sensation.

 

I love the Minotaurs. I also think they're monsters. I love the Word Bearers, also monsters. I love the setting, it's horrific. I just find it weird that the setting goes so far out of it its way to paint some of these things in a more heroic light, and that even leads to fans sometimes unironically defending really terrifying, though thankfully fictional, acts.

 

But I may just be morally preening. 

[Splog]

The Grimdark isn’t always front and centre, and our point of view characters often don’t recognise it, and I suspect veteran readers of the setting begin to gloss over it, but it’s there all the time, baked into the background.

 

Even in Horus Rising, which presents the Imperium as shiny and progressive there is *routine* *mega-industrial scale* grimdark. The exterminations of alien races for no other reason than because they’re alien. Servitors are horrific, but they’re just there, everywhere, and it is just a normal unremarkable thing even to the ‘good guys’. The Imperium chooses to run some planets as death worlds, pretty much just because they get better quality military recruits from them. Setting aside the selection process to become a space marine, which can be brutal and murderous, the legions take children, dramatically surgically alter them, largely take away their memories and recreate their personalities (many would consider this erasure of the person the child was), and (IIRC) kill many of them in the process.

 

In some ways this is what is great and horrifying about the setting. It goes beyond acceptance of these things as a price to save humanity, it’s just part of the culture and the horror goes unnoticed. Those novels that give us gory details of chaos rites and so forth (which sometimes has its place) often are only superficially engaging with the grim dark themes of the setting.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

snip

 

You might want to read the Night Lord trilogy, or the Black Legion books, or Carrion Throne. There's a ton of recent fluff that is exactly what you're saying has been missing.

[Wispy]

you've all grown up and become desensitived to it.

[Volt]

 

TLDR: 40K is trying to be grimdark AND appeal to people who hate grimdark at the same time, and is suffering for it.

 

Ehhh, can't say I really agree, here. There's a lot of activity in the 40K community vis-à-vis the culture wars of the moment (most of which is, understandably, not a topic for discussion here on the venerable B&C), but I think this trend goes back further. Like...a lot further. To make things even more complicated, it's not even been consistent. You'd hear a lot of the same complaints all the way back in 2nd Edition, even. I'd place a marker for the modern trend sometime back in late 4th Edition, or early 5th, but even that's been kind of unstable. A D-B's Night Lords trilogy hit right in the middle of that time frame, and they're almost exactly the novels you describe here.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think much of any of the change in 40K has to do with recent world events or politics. It's part marketing, part expansion, part corporatization, and all of it goes back further than this particular moment.

 

People also vastly overstate the impact of Twitter because their head is fully stuck in the arse-end of the internet. I have to date not seen anybody or any IP get "cancelled", and stuff getting "changed" by twitter is mostly due to a corporation having bad calculus and capitulating to like, a fragment of a shard of a sliver of the global population.

 

I think for me, the most disturbing element of the modern backstory, is it trying to portray the Emperor in a better light than before. As odd as that may sound, of course, lol, I think it's kind of a problem. I generally don't like politics in my games, I don't want that. But the Emperor of Mankind is the worst despot in history, who has committed atrocities not really comparable. The annihilation of hundreds, of thousands, of alien species. The annihilation of whole human cultures, and the genocide of subjugation of those who lived in the places that the Imperium now treads. The legacy of violence and genocide he's left in the galaxy cannot be understated, or the fact that his hatred of aliens stems from the same kind of language and vendetta's a certain 20th century country was involved in.

 

I love 40k, I even like that part of the backstory, but it seems creepy and dirty to me when the setting begins setting up the Emperor in a heroic light. Or when fans unironically say things like "He had to do it, was the best thing for mankind." I mean, not only is the examination of "err, was it?" never really approached, or its implications on the setting, but the truth is there is never an attempt to steer away from what is an ideology very much based on bigotry, and all sorts of isms, that are not only repulsive by today's standards, but by defending them, really creates an uncomfortable sensation.

 

I love the Minotaurs. I also think they're monsters. I love the Word Bearers, also monsters. I love the setting, it's horrific. I just find it weird that the setting goes so far out of it its way to paint some of these things in a more heroic light, and that even leads to fans sometimes unironically defending really terrifying, though thankfully fictional, acts.

 

But I may just be morally preening. 

 

Actually the Emperor was originally portrayed as a completely heroic and noble figure, the modern stuff about the Emperor being questionable is actually the aberration by trend. Judging by Priestly's intentions in Lost and the Damned, it wasn't supposed to be nightmarish from the start at all.

[Wispy]

IIRC, one of the GW/BL rules was “No outright depiction of violence/brutality against an innocent.” That happened to be stated a while back, so it isn’t any kind of reaction to current situations. It may have been a little more subtle than that and there may be an internal “what defines an innocent” that the authors can fall back on, because clearly things can be alluded to/responded to, but my take was the “in front of the camera” depiction wasn’t something that GW had really ever been interested in having, at least not for a while - I never read much Black Library back in 3rd/4th Edition, so don’t know if it happened back then.

One loose rule that a GW guy quoted to me is that depictions of combat are always consensual between foes.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

Actually the Emperor was originally portrayed as a completely heroic and noble figure, the modern stuff about the Emperor being questionable is actually the aberration by trend. Judging by Priestly's intentions in Lost and the Damned, it wasn't supposed to be nightmarish from the start at all.

 

 

Been in the Hobby 26 years, in my time in the Hobby, a genocidal regime created on the foundations of his bloodshed definitely was still in the cards by the time late 2nd, early 3rd edition rolled around, so I've never seen him as noble, or heroic, personally.

[Volt]

 

 

Actually the Emperor was originally portrayed as a completely heroic and noble figure, the modern stuff about the Emperor being questionable is actually the aberration by trend. Judging by Priestly's intentions in Lost and the Damned, it wasn't supposed to be nightmarish from the start at all.

 

 

Been in the Hobby 26 years, in my time in the Hobby, a genocidal regime created on the foundations of his bloodshed definitely was still in the cards by the time late 2nd, early 3rd edition rolled around, so I've never seen him as noble, or heroic, personally.

 

By the later actions sure, but the original descriptions of the Imperium's birth and literal first example of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy lore mentions none of that.

 

[bloodhound23]

I think the times have changed around us more than anything. 40k has always somewhat reflected the times, the glory days of RT and 2nd with their over the top heavy metal aesthetics, the gritty grimdark of 3rd and 4th reflecting the gothy, industrial fads of the mid 2000s, and then 2010 onwards seemingly taking more inspiration from video games.

 

I've had one line of thinking that I've mused on over time, that the setting hasn't gotten brighter, it has simply become more detailed, and more lived-in. Which, in a strange way, has taken away some of the ominous atmosphere it had before. The more we know about the way the setting works, the in-universe tech, the structure and order of society itself, the more we can place ourselves within it. The more sense it makes. That pulls back the curtain, and takes away some of that mystique it used to have before, where your imagination filled those gaps instead.

 

A small example: Nowadays you can find out exactly what a black carapace is, the different marks of armour, the creation process and gene seed implantation etc within about 10 minutes of browsing on Lexicanum. When I was younger me and my friends literally had hours long conversations about what exactly made Space Marines unique. Were they just guys in armour? Or were they something altogether less human? How long do they live? What do they eat? Do they really only sleep for three hours?! We didn't know, because we didn't have all that information at our fingertips- We just had the incomplete knowledge left by the books.

You're not kidding, either.

 

Hours!

[The Unseen]

Others have already hit most of what I'd say, so I'll keep it too a few major points I want to draw particular attention too.

 

40k was originally written explicitly as a parody/satire. We've got a half Eldar chief librarian Ultramarine named something like Obi Classeu Holmes or some such, I don't remember exactly anymore, nuns with guns, sentient fungus with British Hooligan accents, and the method of interstellar travel is make a tunnel through hell itself.

It is not, and never has been, a serious setting. It can, however, have serious STORIES told in it. But its always been a universe using comedy and bleak satire juxtaposed against each other, its why young teenage me who had just recently discovered philosophy was instantly hooked when I found the 2e source books in my dads old stuff.

 

It was also written with the idea of, let's take this idea of a vaguely fascist theocracy and make it, at least on the face of it, justified.

Its a big middle finger to the idea of hating ones neighbor thanks to imaginary border lines, religious or skin tone differences, etc in the modern era, as it shows a society where not only is that the norm but its "NECESSARY", because that other religion really will absolutely lead you straight to hell in the physcial and metaphysical sense, and the illegal aliens in 40k literally want to eat you.

 

Now, the other topic before I get too political.

 

The 40k setting works when its BIG. The opening scroll is the best example.

Its not that individuals or groups can't make change, its that those changes are insignificant in the face of an entire galaxy thats on fire all the time.

 

But that works when the setting is a setting and not a story.

 

40k, at least the big stuff the main studio is pushing, has been becoming more and more a STORY and not a setting, with the introduction of Cawl and Guillimans resurrection, and Ynneads chosen, Eldrad, Abaddon all taking center stage, makes this massive sprawling universe feel constrained and tiny. A lot of 8ths major fluff additions are more aptly categorized as Guilliman and Friends Galivant around the Galaxy saving all the first founding chapters from certain DOOM!

And its so transparently been writers being told to write stuff to justify models they've already made, to sell Primaris marines, which is a poorly executed attempt to get people to buy more space marines; when a range refresh and upscaling wouldve been fine, wouldve made tons of money, and wouldn't have caused nearly this many problems.

 

Some of the stuff coming out of Black Library during this time though, has been great.

 

And finally, I think what kickstarted this was the resounding success of the HH series.

It was always a big interlayered story, one where we already knew the ending, but we get to peel back the curtain to see the ride there. The Heresy has always been a story, really a giant family drama, brother vs brother, a father vs his sons, etc. The Great Crusade is just the backdrop setting up the tragedy, to give us the high water mark to show just how far the Imperium will fall, but its never the point or the focus.

But that focus on large, over arching and layered narrative was power-crowbarred into the main 40k line, where it doesn't fit very well and they had to bring back some major players to have the narrative revolve around them. But there are far fewer of them, and there is MUCH less being written for the main 40k narrative than the HH. We're to book 40 something now in the HH, plus a whole bunch of novellas and shorts over a long time. Compare that to how much main narrative of 8th over ~3 years, and its just not ever gonna be as good.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

How is noble the opposite of grim? It should be pleasant bright. Wh40k is not pleasant bright?

It's one of those things we don't question. It might not be the correct word, but it's the one everyone knows.

 

 

Like Black Templars thinking the crotch flaps their units wear are Tabards

 

We don't have units who wear crotch flaps or loin cloths, the cloth goes way up over the chest, making them aprons.

 

The only ones to actually wear tabards are a couple of our ancient IC's

 

EDIT: Actually, the emperor's champion has a bonafide loin cloth, so I'll give you that. He's the only BT specific model who does though. Point still stands.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Reinhard

[Sete]

Better crotch flaps than wearing chickens on the helmet :P

 

But I agree the universe feels small.

 

And that's the issue with bringing Primarchs back to 40k. The narrative will always focus on the big names, and instead of Man vs God its Demigod vs Demigod, even if the 5 minutes to midnight setting remains the same.

[Roland Durendal]

The Unseen hit it on the head. That change from setting to story is key, and gets at what I was trying to say. A setting has mystery and unknowns, things that are beyond the control and understanding of those living within. A setting doesn’t NEED resolution because it’s just the backdrop upon which characters/actors exits and play out their story. And indeed, having great unknowns or things unimaginable/incomprehensible makes the characters that much more vulnerable and interesting, and dare I say, human. A story though, unless it’s part of a larger compendium of stories, needs resolution, needs clarity and explanation. A stand-alone story can’t have loose ends or unfinished sub-plots or themes, because those become detracting and distracting.

 

That’s why I agree wholeheartedly that with the advent of 8th, 40ks background went from setting to story, and, as I mentioned, it’s obvious by the fact they keep answering what used to be great unknowns and “what if’s”. In so doing, they chip away at the mystery and awe of the universe.

[Sugarlessllama]

I love the direction BL has been taking with the story and lore. :D 

[Wispy]

re: 40ks relationship to fascism - a lot of it was written as a satire of Thatcherism. there's some politics in 40ks DNA, it's okay to mention that.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Wispy

[Sete]

Care to expand on that Sugerlessllama?

It adds to the discussion having some context to your opinion.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Sete