Points Changes for the Rout

[Dark Shepherd]

If you include the shield TWC went up 18% and they were in need of a relative points reduction.

 

Happier news is Wolf Lords are cheaper on TW than with jump packs

[TheWolfLord]

Not all people put SS on units or every model so you can’t factor in the SS cost and say they went up by 18%.

 

Also the TWC SS increased by a smaller % than the normal SS so they had a much small % rise in comparison.

 

Other than Terminators I’m struggling to think of any unit that can take massed SS that had a smaller % increase so they did get a relative points reduction.

 

They also have been buffed more than their competing units, they can be placed in reserve and can fight units on terrain now, they have benefited more than their counterparts thanks to the 9th edition changes.

[Karhedron]

So Plasma Inceptors have dropped in points AND have blast weapons? Awesome. Squad of 3 against a unit or 6 or more are going to always pump out 18 shots.

Plasma Inceptors have Blast? 

 

Us and the Blood Angels are the only Chapters who can field healing characters with Jump Packs IIRC. I am sure there is a way to leverage all that firepower. And a Jump Lord to keep overheats manageable.....

[Dark Shepherd]

Not all people put SS on units or every model so you can’t factor in the SS cost and say they went up by 18%.

 

Also the TWC SS increased by a smaller % than the normal SS so they had a much small % rise in comparison.

 

Other than Terminators I’m struggling to think of any unit that can take massed SS that had a smaller % increase so they did get a relative points reduction.

 

They also have been buffed more than their competing units, they can be placed in reserve and can fight units on terrain now, they have benefited more than their counterparts thanks to the 9th edition changes.

Taking TWC without SS is like eating soup with your hands.

 

They pay a higher rate already, which is even higher again now. Deepstrike charges are 50/50 at best, board edge ones even more limited. There is no way they got a relative points decrease as they were already overpriced. Cavalry still suffer from a lot of terrain issues. Engagement range is a nice buff though

[sturguard]

So I dont mind point changes but I have to say, again how GW does things is bitter sweet. So just what a few months ago most of us paid for CA 2020 for point changes, well that book is now pretty much worthless and obviously when GW release CA2020 they knew they were resetting all the points costs. Its like when Psychic Awakenings came out, they couldnt put the correct table with our warlord traits so I could throw out this printed PDF I carry around with me? I mean that kind of stuff doesnt cost them any extra money but goes far with player relations. I wouldnt over analyze the point values, I think GW will do what they always do, reset the point values again with each individual codex, I mean did anyone expect GW to actually look at every single unit in the game and try to create a balanced point value for each? They havent been able to accomplish that in the games history, there have always been winners and losers regarding point values. Yet, it wont be long until the point values are all over the place. And I want to stress, this isn't doom and gloom, this isn't even pessimism, this is just how GW does things. They tried a vanilla system years back at the beginning of 5th wasnt it? The Dark Angels were the first book to come out, very streamlined, they kept point costs in line and extra rules to a minimum and players went nuts about how generic it was, how there wasn't anything to exploit and then very quickly the flood gates were opened. For the most part that's what competitive player do, they break down point values, they find the units that arent priced accordingly and exploit that in a list. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, in a competitive environment you do what you need to gain an advantage. At home playing in the basement drinking beer, not so important. Then there are alot of players in between, they want a decent list, but they aren't afraid to waste a few points on units they like. 

 

As far as thunderwolves go, Im saddened as well. However at least TWC characters are a decent buy, you can always add a few heroes in your army on them (which is what I will probably do) and when our codex is released GW may by then revisit the Thunderwolves and give them some love, who knows. You don't know how many years I have been waiting for GW to make my two units of wolf scouts viable. 

[TheWolfLord]

 

Not all people put SS on units or every model so you can’t factor in the SS cost and say they went up by 18%.

 

Also the TWC SS increased by a smaller % than the normal SS so they had a much small % rise in comparison.

 

Other than Terminators I’m struggling to think of any unit that can take massed SS that had a smaller % increase so they did get a relative points reduction.

 

They also have been buffed more than their competing units, they can be placed in reserve and can fight units on terrain now, they have benefited more than their counterparts thanks to the 9th edition changes.

Taking TWC without SS is like eating soup with your hands.

 

They pay a higher rate already, which is even higher again now. Deepstrike charges are 50/50 at best, board edge ones even more limited. There is no way they got a relative points decrease as they were already overpriced. Cavalry still suffer from a lot of terrain issues. Engagement range is a nice buff though

 

You keep saying they didn’t get a relative points decrease but what are you basing that on.

 

Wulfen with SS increased by a larger %.

 

Wolfguard with SS increased by a larger %.

 

So what unit that can take all storm shields increased by less than 18% after factoring the increase for SS too? 

 

Deep strike changes are 50/50? So going from no deep strike to having a deepstrike is only 50/50? It’s effectively the same as our infantry got throughout 8th. While On the Hunt isn’t the best on its type it’s still better than not having that option and was used often enough.

 

I think you just need to actually try running a unit across the board compared to arriving and charging from 9” away and see how many make it to combat and how much value they generate compared to the unit being shot for 2 turns.

 

TWC are perfectly good without SS, they are only marginally less survivable than Outrider bikes and everyone is saying they are far too hard to kill. You also don’t need every model in a unit with SS, it was necessary in 7th or 8th and it won’t be necessary now. Given you can now get a couple of base units charging from reserve with 20+ attacks for 135 points I don’t think that’s bad for clearing infantry, chaff or typing up certain tanks.

 

If you are still trying to run 6 TWC all with SS and TH then yeah they’re bad, that was already bad is 8th and that isn’t really their best role.

 

Regardless of their best role they had a smaller % increase than other units so have received a relative points drop. They still aren’t great but let’s not use our disappointment as an excuse to spread fallacies.

Edited July 14, 2020 by TheWolfLord

[Bulwyf]

 

 

So TWC went from being pretty non-competitive to being a complete liability. Take them if you just really want to lose.

 

It really feels like GW just wants to make them so useless that nobody will ever play with them again. So incredibly frustrating and disappointing, that words and polite language just fail to describe.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing a game that makes me so angry so often.

 

The continuous nerfing of TWC over now two editions isn't a mistake. GW clearly does not want Space Wolf players to play one of the two iconic SW units. Absolutely pathetic.

 

Can I ask how you think TWC have been nerfed again?

 

Is it because they went up in points? Everything did and the average increase is 15% so TWC increased was less than average so they actually had a net buff. SS went up for everyone and again TWC SS received a lower points increase than infantry. Some weapons increased but some didn’t. So did all TWC get nerfed or did your loadout go up in points?

 

The mechanics of the game improve things for specifically TWC too over their comparative units so again how have they been nerfed?

 

It seems to me some people only want to run TWC in a certain way with a certain loadout, massed TH/SS TWC were not good in 8th and shouldn’t be how they are ran. We’ve had 3 years to try different approaches to wargear. The fact that half the attacks on the model are S5 ap-1 and D1 suggests maybe they shouldn't be going after vehicles or monsters.

 

 

I hate to inform you of this but you don't get to dictate how people play. TWC are designed to be monster/vehicle hunter with TH/SS. Using them in another way is your choice but it is exactly that. Your choice. TWC should be used with TH/SS and they were excellent in that role in 7th edition. They are an iconic unit of the SW and need to be a showcase unit. Not the bland anti infantry yawn role you seem to think they are designed for which, I have to add, they are not good at either. Any shooting unit can clear infantry much better than TWC can. 

 

That leaves TH/SS where they can shine and be a unique unit. They need to excel in that role not be a terrible unit that was already overcosted and had no place even in friendly games in 8th.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't know if any unit in 9th will work well running just SS/TH. There is a pretty heavy emphasis on being able to hold more objectives than your opponent and the rule book missions all have at least 4 objectives. So any pricey melee unit is going to be a disadvantage IMO.

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

 

So TWC went from being pretty non-competitive to being a complete liability. Take them if you just really want to lose.

 

It really feels like GW just wants to make them so useless that nobody will ever play with them again. So incredibly frustrating and disappointing, that words and polite language just fail to describe.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing a game that makes me so angry so often.

 

The continuous nerfing of TWC over now two editions isn't a mistake. GW clearly does not want Space Wolf players to play one of the two iconic SW units. Absolutely pathetic.

 

Can I ask how you think TWC have been nerfed again?

 

Is it because they went up in points? Everything did and the average increase is 15% so TWC increased was less than average so they actually had a net buff. SS went up for everyone and again TWC SS received a lower points increase than infantry. Some weapons increased but some didn’t. So did all TWC get nerfed or did your loadout go up in points?

 

The mechanics of the game improve things for specifically TWC too over their comparative units so again how have they been nerfed?

 

It seems to me some people only want to run TWC in a certain way with a certain loadout, massed TH/SS TWC were not good in 8th and shouldn’t be how they are ran. We’ve had 3 years to try different approaches to wargear. The fact that half the attacks on the model are S5 ap-1 and D1 suggests maybe they shouldn't be going after vehicles or monsters.

 

 

I hate to inform you of this but you don't get to dictate how people play. TWC are designed to be monster/vehicle hunter with TH/SS. Using them in another way is your choice but it is exactly that. Your choice. TWC should be used with TH/SS and they were excellent in that role in 7th edition. They are an iconic unit of the SW and need to be a showcase unit. Not the bland anti infantry yawn role you seem to think they are designed for which, I have to add, they are not good at either. Any shooting unit can clear infantry much better than TWC can. 

 

That leaves TH/SS where they can shine and be a unique unit. They need to excel in that role not be a terrible unit that was already overcosted and had no place even in friendly games in 8th.

 

I hate to inform you but at no point did I say you couldn’t run them however you like. I said you shouldn’t as they are not designed to do that.

In 7th and below they were monster/vehicle hunters. In 8th that changed. When more than half of their attacks are S5 ap-1 they are not monster/vehicle killers. Even if you give them TH they become at best a hybrid and will always be worse at hunting monsters/vehicles than a dedicated unit like Wulfen or a Smash Captain.

 

If you want to continue to use them in a way where you’re not getting value from half their attacks that’s fine but don’t be surprised if people disagree with you and say you aren’t using them properly when you complain about their effectiveness.

 

The fact that you go onto talk about being an iconic unit and they deserve to be x or y and infantry killing is bland shows 2 things, you’re stubborn to the point that you disrespectfully dismiss another tactic and that for you this is an emotional argument rather than a practical one based on their actually performance. They were too good in 6th & 7th that there was no point running much else. They shouldnt be that good again.

 

For 135 ish points they can have 24 attacks hitting on 2+, 9 of which are S5 ap-1 so yes they do clear infantry, the fact that shooting does this better than melee units is a fault of the game design not an individual unit. Regardless shooting being better than melee isn’t relevant to this discussion or we may as well go and play Iron Hands or Salamanders.

 

I do think TWC should be better, I still think they have uses and factually they haven’t been given another nerf as their points haven’t increased more relative to the units they compete with. They also received some big buffs thanks to the changes in 9th.

 

So I ask again when they have gotten cheaper in comparison to other units that use TH/SS how have they been nerfed again? Or was it simply that you wanted their costs to come down even though all other points were going up? 

 

To me this feels like 7th to 8th again when people complained about points increases in a vacuum without considering that everything increased in points.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

So TWC went from being pretty non-competitive to being a complete liability. Take them if you just really want to lose.

 

It really feels like GW just wants to make them so useless that nobody will ever play with them again. So incredibly frustrating and disappointing, that words and polite language just fail to describe.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing a game that makes me so angry so often.

 

The continuous nerfing of TWC over now two editions isn't a mistake. GW clearly does not want Space Wolf players to play one of the two iconic SW units. Absolutely pathetic.

 

Can I ask how you think TWC have been nerfed again?

 

Is it because they went up in points? Everything did and the average increase is 15% so TWC increased was less than average so they actually had a net buff. SS went up for everyone and again TWC SS received a lower points increase than infantry. Some weapons increased but some didn’t. So did all TWC get nerfed or did your loadout go up in points?

 

The mechanics of the game improve things for specifically TWC too over their comparative units so again how have they been nerfed?

 

It seems to me some people only want to run TWC in a certain way with a certain loadout, massed TH/SS TWC were not good in 8th and shouldn’t be how they are ran. We’ve had 3 years to try different approaches to wargear. The fact that half the attacks on the model are S5 ap-1 and D1 suggests maybe they shouldn't be going after vehicles or monsters.

 

 

I hate to inform you of this but you don't get to dictate how people play. TWC are designed to be monster/vehicle hunter with TH/SS. Using them in another way is your choice but it is exactly that. Your choice. TWC should be used with TH/SS and they were excellent in that role in 7th edition. They are an iconic unit of the SW and need to be a showcase unit. Not the bland anti infantry yawn role you seem to think they are designed for which, I have to add, they are not good at either. Any shooting unit can clear infantry much better than TWC can. 

 

That leaves TH/SS where they can shine and be a unique unit. They need to excel in that role not be a terrible unit that was already overcosted and had no place even in friendly games in 8th.

 

I hate to inform you but at no point did I say you couldn’t run them however you like. I said you shouldn’t as they are not designed to do that.

In 7th and below they were monster/vehicle hunters. In 8th that changed. When more than half of their attacks are S5 ap-1 they are not monster/vehicle killers. Even if you give them TH they become at best a hybrid and will always be worse at hunting monsters/vehicles than a dedicated unit like Wulfen or a Smash Captain.

 

If you want to continue to use them in a way where you’re not getting value from half their attacks that’s fine but don’t be surprised if people disagree with you and say you aren’t using them properly when you complain about their effectiveness.

 

The fact that you go onto talk about being an iconic unit and they deserve to be x or y and infantry killing is bland shows 2 things, you’re stubborn to the point that you disrespectfully dismiss another tactic and that for you this is an emotional argument rather than a practical one based on their actually performance. They were too good in 6th & 7th that there was no point running much else. They shouldnt be that good again.

 

For 135 ish points they can have 24 attacks hitting on 2+, 9 of which are S5 ap-1 so yes they do clear infantry, the fact that shooting does this better than melee units is a fault of the game design not an individual unit. Regardless shooting being better than melee isn’t relevant to this discussion or we may as well go and play Iron Hands or Salamanders.

 

I do think TWC should be better, I still think they have uses and factually they haven’t been given another nerf as their points haven’t increased more relative to the units they compete with. They also received some big buffs thanks to the changes in 9th.

 

So I ask again when they have gotten cheaper in comparison to other units that use TH/SS how have they been nerfed again? Or was it simply that you wanted their costs to come down even though all other points were going up? 

 

To me this feels like 7th to 8th again when people complained about points increases in a vacuum without considering that everything increased in points.

 

 

 

Where are you spouting this about half their attacks being S5? The wolf? That isn't the main attacks of the unit. The main attack is from the SW and the wolf attacks are simply used as a weapon profile. The best use is putting TH/SS so your SW (hint: not the wolf) is hitting like a truck on a T5 unit. 

 

You said you can't use shooting as an argument against using them as anti infantry. What straw man are you trying to insert here? All aspects of the game provide context to a unit's value on the table and in a list. The fact you can slap one Redemptor on the table and instantly have a unit far, far superior at clearing infantry than chainsword TWC is exactly that: a fact. It provides the context you need to evaluate the TWC value on the table. 

 

But using that same example if I can put TH/SS on TWC versus a Redemptor then the TWC can do more things against monster/vehicles than a Redemptor can do. That is if the TWC are pointed appropriately. They still suffer from cavalry rules, no range etc. 

 

The reality is that you can bring almost any unit in our codex for anti infantry and it does that job far better than TWC can do. Points are a premium and if one unit in the same role/cost does a job much better then the lesser valued unit has no real place on the table. I do remember TWC in earlier editions being so good that it was too much. I actually agree with you that it was too much. However, we now have two editions where the contrary is true: they are nowhere near good enough to take.

 

Wulfen and even WG termies can outperform them for vehicle/monster hunting for non shooting units. TWC have no place for anti infantry because frankly almost everything else does the job better. So which role do TWC excel at? Nothing. They were worthless in 8th edition and now look to be the same worthless unit in 9th. 

 

There has to be a medium between OP and worthless. If you think that is anti infantry which is clearly what they were not designed to do then knock yourself out and I hope you have fun doing so. Meanwhile I will use practically any other unit in our codex for anti infantry for less points and far more effective in that role. The TH/SS combo as fast vehicle/monster hunter is where the TWC unique spot should be and where they should excel. 

[Gherrick]

I would love to field TWC again. As a WG unit, they should have the same loadout options that other WG get (like storm bolters/combi). With a few special rules, maybe they will be usable again. I'd like to see all CAVALRY and BEAST units get free outflank and reroll charges. Getting an ability to prevent fall back, or a chance to counter charge a unit that falls back would also give them a niche that makes sense with their flavor.

[Dark Shepherd]

Lord Palmerston!

[PeteySödes]

=][=   Let's take it down about 20% brothers. Tensions are high as things shake out and settle, I feel it too (clearly) but lets not get too heated.   =][=

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

 

 

 

So TWC went from being pretty non-competitive to being a complete liability. Take them if you just really want to lose.

 

It really feels like GW just wants to make them so useless that nobody will ever play with them again. So incredibly frustrating and disappointing, that words and polite language just fail to describe.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing a game that makes me so angry so often.

 

The continuous nerfing of TWC over now two editions isn't a mistake. GW clearly does not want Space Wolf players to play one of the two iconic SW units. Absolutely pathetic.

 

Can I ask how you think TWC have been nerfed again?

 

Is it because they went up in points? Everything did and the average increase is 15% so TWC increased was less than average so they actually had a net buff. SS went up for everyone and again TWC SS received a lower points increase than infantry. Some weapons increased but some didn’t. So did all TWC get nerfed or did your loadout go up in points?

 

The mechanics of the game improve things for specifically TWC too over their comparative units so again how have they been nerfed?

 

It seems to me some people only want to run TWC in a certain way with a certain loadout, massed TH/SS TWC were not good in 8th and shouldn’t be how they are ran. We’ve had 3 years to try different approaches to wargear. The fact that half the attacks on the model are S5 ap-1 and D1 suggests maybe they shouldn't be going after vehicles or monsters.

 

 

I hate to inform you of this but you don't get to dictate how people play. TWC are designed to be monster/vehicle hunter with TH/SS. Using them in another way is your choice but it is exactly that. Your choice. TWC should be used with TH/SS and they were excellent in that role in 7th edition. They are an iconic unit of the SW and need to be a showcase unit. Not the bland anti infantry yawn role you seem to think they are designed for which, I have to add, they are not good at either. Any shooting unit can clear infantry much better than TWC can. 

 

That leaves TH/SS where they can shine and be a unique unit. They need to excel in that role not be a terrible unit that was already overcosted and had no place even in friendly games in 8th.

 

I hate to inform you but at no point did I say you couldn’t run them however you like. I said you shouldn’t as they are not designed to do that.

In 7th and below they were monster/vehicle hunters. In 8th that changed. When more than half of their attacks are S5 ap-1 they are not monster/vehicle killers. Even if you give them TH they become at best a hybrid and will always be worse at hunting monsters/vehicles than a dedicated unit like Wulfen or a Smash Captain.

 

If you want to continue to use them in a way where you’re not getting value from half their attacks that’s fine but don’t be surprised if people disagree with you and say you aren’t using them properly when you complain about their effectiveness.

 

The fact that you go onto talk about being an iconic unit and they deserve to be x or y and infantry killing is bland shows 2 things, you’re stubborn to the point that you disrespectfully dismiss another tactic and that for you this is an emotional argument rather than a practical one based on their actually performance. They were too good in 6th & 7th that there was no point running much else. They shouldnt be that good again.

 

For 135 ish points they can have 24 attacks hitting on 2+, 9 of which are S5 ap-1 so yes they do clear infantry, the fact that shooting does this better than melee units is a fault of the game design not an individual unit. Regardless shooting being better than melee isn’t relevant to this discussion or we may as well go and play Iron Hands or Salamanders.

 

I do think TWC should be better, I still think they have uses and factually they haven’t been given another nerf as their points haven’t increased more relative to the units they compete with. They also received some big buffs thanks to the changes in 9th.

 

So I ask again when they have gotten cheaper in comparison to other units that use TH/SS how have they been nerfed again? Or was it simply that you wanted their costs to come down even though all other points were going up? 

 

To me this feels like 7th to 8th again when people complained about points increases in a vacuum without considering that everything increased in points.

 

 

 

Where are you spouting this about half their attacks being S5? The wolf? That isn't the main attacks of the unit. The main attack is from the SW and the wolf attacks are simply used as a weapon profile. The best use is putting TH/SS so your SW (hint: not the wolf) is hitting like a truck on a T5 unit. 

 

You said you can't use shooting as an argument against using them as anti infantry. What straw man are you trying to insert here? All aspects of the game provide context to a unit's value on the table and in a list. The fact you can slap one Redemptor on the table and instantly have a unit far, far superior at clearing infantry than chainsword TWC is exactly that: a fact. It provides the context you need to evaluate the TWC value on the table. 

 

But using that same example if I can put TH/SS on TWC versus a Redemptor then the TWC can do more things against monster/vehicles than a Redemptor can do. That is if the TWC are pointed appropriately. They still suffer from cavalry rules, no range etc. 

 

The reality is that you can bring almost any unit in our codex for anti infantry and it does that job far better than TWC can do. Points are a premium and if one unit in the same role/cost does a job much better then the lesser valued unit has no real place on the table. I do remember TWC in earlier editions being so good that it was too much. I actually agree with you that it was too much. However, we now have two editions where the contrary is true: they are nowhere near good enough to take.

 

Wulfen and even WG termies can outperform them for vehicle/monster hunting for non shooting units. TWC have no place for anti infantry because frankly almost everything else does the job better. So which role do TWC excel at? Nothing. They were worthless in 8th edition and now look to be the same worthless unit in 9th. 

 

There has to be a medium between OP and worthless. If you think that is anti infantry which is clearly what they were not designed to do then knock yourself out and I hope you have fun doing so. Meanwhile I will use practically any other unit in our codex for anti infantry for less points and far more effective in that role. The TH/SS combo as fast vehicle/monster hunter is where the TWC unique spot should be and where they should excel. 

 

You pay for their extra mount attacks, they are made by the model using the models profile, a TWC model has 6 attacks on the charge, 3 of which are S5 ap-1. To put those S5 attacks against a high toughness model is a waste so you are reducing the units efficiency straight away.

 

You know exactly what I mean about shooting units, there isn’t a melee unit  that can out perform the best shooting units so why bother taking any melee units at all if we have to compare to shooting rather than just other melee options?

 

If all shooting needs to be taken into consideration then there are far better anti vehicle options than TH anyway?

 

I also disagree that all of our other units out perform them at melee anti infantry, a unit of 6 Bloodclaws is 90 points, that gives 24 attacks which matches the TWC, TWC have a faster movement, T5 and more wounds and have 9 attacks at a higher strength with al-1.

 

if you compare points for points Bloodclaws to TWC the damage output on infantry is roughly the same but the TWC move faster, are harder to kill and don’t rely on the charge as much as Bloodclaws, the BC are also not susceptible to blast and morale. Bloodclaws will do better again lower toughness with worse save and TWC will do better against tougher units with higher saves.

 

I’ll repeat it again as people seem to be ignoring this, I’m not saying TWC are great, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be better, I’m not even saying they are out best anti infantry unit, I’m saying they can do that job better than they can do anti vehicle/monster role because they are getting an extra 3 attacks that actually do some meaningful damage, I mean we pay for the 3 mount attacks so why not actually get some value out of them? 

 

They will not be an efficient anti vehicle/monster hunter until their points are dropped to a level where you can just ignore the mount attacks or the mount attacks are removed for more rider attacks. That isn’t going to happen so you need to look at what the unit can do instead of getting upset because it can’t do what you want it to.

Edited July 14, 2020 by TheWolfLord

[TSkouboe]

I had some fun playing my Thunderwolves in units of 4 or 5 with a Thunder Hammer only on the leader, the rest with chainswords and shields, except the 'intern' who didn't get any upgrades. With some patience, they were an excellent counter charge unit for hordes like Boyz, and if the Wulfen Stone was nearby, they could threaten monsters and tanks a little, too.

 

I agree with TheWolfLord that if 3 out of 6 attacks are locked into a Heavy Bolter statline, they were probably not entirely designed for vehicle hunting. I think they're one of our absolute most efficient horde-killing units - if they make it into melee.

 

I'm wondering if their toughness (and optional Storm Shields) make them viable midfield objective holders.

Edited July 14, 2020 by TSkouboe

[Karack Blackstone]

So a few things.

 

TWC are better than they have been for a LONG Time, editions wise.

Still not perfect, as TH's are "effectively" points costed, and the TH expense on EVERY TWC gets COSTLY and FAST.

The thing is, with so many units benefiting from The Wulfen Stone, it's important to consider where and when to put it.

 

As far as TWC, I'd say if able to go to 6, or 5, TWC PL gets a TH, SS a must; keep him the last model if the unit takes enough casualties.

As for the rest of the pack, if 5 or 6, maybe 1 more TH, and the rest can be Frost Axes which I find a nicely balanced, previously 8th Ed. pts cost value. Good S bonus, solid AP-, not too much on points.

 

If one needs some cheap TWC, a unit of 6 with one or two TH's, two to four SS's, two Frost Axes, and two Chainswords with two BP's should make a decent harasser base pack.

If anything else, considering what weapons to swap out to should help immensely.

 

I know I for one don't like that GH's and the NorMarines do not yet get Astartes Chainswords, however it should just be a matter of time, or we ask GW to give them to GH's, TWC, and other NorMarines units! Still, a TWC with ACSwd and SS or BP should be quite the nasty chaff clearer to use the phrase. The question would be is more, how many points can you spare? And, as Valerian and other list builders ask, what's the unit's role?

 

TL:DR:

 

6 TWC

PL TH/SS

0-1 other TH/SS

1-3 FAxe/SS

2 CSwd/BP?

 

Thoughts?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Sturguard, I agree it’s crummy we are getting a new points book so soon after the last one. In fairness, covid has limited my games played to 0 for a few months that I otherwise would have played and use those updated points.

 

Also looking through the points changes of various factions I’m disappointed in the pattern they used. Instead of rebalancing it looks like they decided that wanted things to get more expensive (for shorter games) and used the same method for every faction and unit rather than looking at individual factions and units.

 

I don’t really want to get into the TWC debate. I will be using them. Thunder hammer on the pack leader and maybe fists or hammers in the other guys. With the stratagem to buff the wolves attacks to damage 2 I think they’ll be a good unit to hunt big stuff with. Death grip bite. Annoying we have to pay CP for something that should be in their rules.

 

I’m also very happy that terminators escaped a points increase. Guys and gals, let’s keep this unit on the down-low for now. I don’t want them to get a points increase with all the tournaments we are gonna go out and win with them.

[Karack Blackstone]

TDA WG should prove quite a bit nicer, especially with SS's now being pretty clearly optimal for the way the new Sv+ / 4++ will interact.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

TDA WG should prove quite a bit nicer, especially with SS's now being pretty clearly optimal for the way the new Sv+ / 4++ will interact.

Except until codex they dont get those storm sheilds. See edge of silence FAQ

[Wolf Guard Dan]

That whole storm shield faq seems like a headache. Why don’t they just say a natural roll of 1 is always a failure for a save?

[Valerian]

That whole storm shield faq seems like a headache. Why don’t they just say a natural roll of 1 is always a failure for a save?

They have said that; that’s in the Core Rules. It doesn’t fix the issue of getting an effective 2++ Invulnerable, but the new Errata that changes the Bladeguard Storm shields does.

[TheUnrealArchon]

How many TWC per unit do you guys normally run them? If board control is the name of 9e, it would seem to me you would want to have more, smaller units. I'm only just getting back into the game so I don't have a lot of experience with them.

[theprophetofwar]

I'll repeat a line about list building and unit analysis.

No unit in the game is relevant in a vacuum or without a purpose. I have (and still love) my TWC rider charges, and as much as I'm torn with the weapon profile changes...sorry but TWC have baked in attacks at a set S AP and damage value. That pushes them into certain roles pretty simply. I for one just used a hammer on the leader and the rest with wolf claws and possibly some chain swords. I found that for infantry combat they did fine after I leaned into the mounts 3 attacks. I left the heavy thunder hammer spam to terminators. I miss the days of my thunderwolf Lord being a monster vehicle AND Infantry killer... But the reality is that was too much. I came to terms with the changes. We need to relax and wait for how this edition plays out and focus on what we DO have and how it works.

Edited July 14, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[theprophetofwar]

To the rest of the discussion, I'm going to try and squeeze in TWC and/or terminators again, but I think our troops are especially set up to do well this edition and could feel like the patient counter charge play we used to focus on. I'd agree we have some of the best incursors still, and our other troops aren't bad. We can win a lot of troop fights for the objective control. I'm excited to get the points and see what we can fit in. Edited July 14, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[theprophetofwar]

How many TWC per unit do you guys normally run them? If board control is the name of 9e, it would seem to me you would want to have more, smaller units. I'm only just getting back into the game so I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Historically 3-5 (with some wolf claws for self reliable rerolls) depending on game size. At least a Lord and a wolf priest with jump pack