Points Changes for the Rout

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So TWC went from being pretty non-competitive to being a complete liability. Take them if you just really want to lose.

 

It really feels like GW just wants to make them so useless that nobody will ever play with them again. So incredibly frustrating and disappointing, that words and polite language just fail to describe.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing a game that makes me so angry so often.

 

The continuous nerfing of TWC over now two editions isn't a mistake. GW clearly does not want Space Wolf players to play one of the two iconic SW units. Absolutely pathetic.

 

Can I ask how you think TWC have been nerfed again?

 

Is it because they went up in points? Everything did and the average increase is 15% so TWC increased was less than average so they actually had a net buff. SS went up for everyone and again TWC SS received a lower points increase than infantry. Some weapons increased but some didn’t. So did all TWC get nerfed or did your loadout go up in points?

 

The mechanics of the game improve things for specifically TWC too over their comparative units so again how have they been nerfed?

 

It seems to me some people only want to run TWC in a certain way with a certain loadout, massed TH/SS TWC were not good in 8th and shouldn’t be how they are ran. We’ve had 3 years to try different approaches to wargear. The fact that half the attacks on the model are S5 ap-1 and D1 suggests maybe they shouldn't be going after vehicles or monsters.

 

 

I hate to inform you of this but you don't get to dictate how people play. TWC are designed to be monster/vehicle hunter with TH/SS. Using them in another way is your choice but it is exactly that. Your choice. TWC should be used with TH/SS and they were excellent in that role in 7th edition. They are an iconic unit of the SW and need to be a showcase unit. Not the bland anti infantry yawn role you seem to think they are designed for which, I have to add, they are not good at either. Any shooting unit can clear infantry much better than TWC can. 

 

That leaves TH/SS where they can shine and be a unique unit. They need to excel in that role not be a terrible unit that was already overcosted and had no place even in friendly games in 8th.

 

I hate to inform you but at no point did I say you couldn’t run them however you like. I said you shouldn’t as they are not designed to do that.

In 7th and below they were monster/vehicle hunters. In 8th that changed. When more than half of their attacks are S5 ap-1 they are not monster/vehicle killers. Even if you give them TH they become at best a hybrid and will always be worse at hunting monsters/vehicles than a dedicated unit like Wulfen or a Smash Captain.

 

If you want to continue to use them in a way where you’re not getting value from half their attacks that’s fine but don’t be surprised if people disagree with you and say you aren’t using them properly when you complain about their effectiveness.

 

The fact that you go onto talk about being an iconic unit and they deserve to be x or y and infantry killing is bland shows 2 things, you’re stubborn to the point that you disrespectfully dismiss another tactic and that for you this is an emotional argument rather than a practical one based on their actually performance. They were too good in 6th & 7th that there was no point running much else. They shouldnt be that good again.

 

For 135 ish points they can have 24 attacks hitting on 2+, 9 of which are S5 ap-1 so yes they do clear infantry, the fact that shooting does this better than melee units is a fault of the game design not an individual unit. Regardless shooting being better than melee isn’t relevant to this discussion or we may as well go and play Iron Hands or Salamanders.

 

I do think TWC should be better, I still think they have uses and factually they haven’t been given another nerf as their points haven’t increased more relative to the units they compete with. They also received some big buffs thanks to the changes in 9th.

 

So I ask again when they have gotten cheaper in comparison to other units that use TH/SS how have they been nerfed again? Or was it simply that you wanted their costs to come down even though all other points were going up? 

 

To me this feels like 7th to 8th again when people complained about points increases in a vacuum without considering that everything increased in points.

 

 

 

Where are you spouting this about half their attacks being S5? The wolf? That isn't the main attacks of the unit. The main attack is from the SW and the wolf attacks are simply used as a weapon profile. The best use is putting TH/SS so your SW (hint: not the wolf) is hitting like a truck on a T5 unit. 

 

You said you can't use shooting as an argument against using them as anti infantry. What straw man are you trying to insert here? All aspects of the game provide context to a unit's value on the table and in a list. The fact you can slap one Redemptor on the table and instantly have a unit far, far superior at clearing infantry than chainsword TWC is exactly that: a fact. It provides the context you need to evaluate the TWC value on the table. 

 

But using that same example if I can put TH/SS on TWC versus a Redemptor then the TWC can do more things against monster/vehicles than a Redemptor can do. That is if the TWC are pointed appropriately. They still suffer from cavalry rules, no range etc. 

 

The reality is that you can bring almost any unit in our codex for anti infantry and it does that job far better than TWC can do. Points are a premium and if one unit in the same role/cost does a job much better then the lesser valued unit has no real place on the table. I do remember TWC in earlier editions being so good that it was too much. I actually agree with you that it was too much. However, we now have two editions where the contrary is true: they are nowhere near good enough to take.

 

Wulfen and even WG termies can outperform them for vehicle/monster hunting for non shooting units. TWC have no place for anti infantry because frankly almost everything else does the job better. So which role do TWC excel at? Nothing. They were worthless in 8th edition and now look to be the same worthless unit in 9th. 

 

There has to be a medium between OP and worthless. If you think that is anti infantry which is clearly what they were not designed to do then knock yourself out and I hope you have fun doing so. Meanwhile I will use practically any other unit in our codex for anti infantry for less points and far more effective in that role. The TH/SS combo as fast vehicle/monster hunter is where the TWC unique spot should be and where they should excel. 

 

You pay for their extra mount attacks, they are made by the model using the models profile, a TWC model has 6 attacks on the charge, 3 of which are S5 ap-1. To put those S5 attacks against a high toughness model is a waste so you are reducing the units efficiency straight away.

 

You know exactly what I mean about shooting units, there isn’t a melee unit  that can out perform the best shooting units so why bother taking any melee units at all if we have to compare to shooting rather than just other melee options?

 

If all shooting needs to be taken into consideration then there are far better anti vehicle options than TH anyway?

 

I also disagree that all of our other units out perform them at melee anti infantry, a unit of 6 Bloodclaws is 90 points, that gives 24 attacks which matches the TWC, TWC have a faster movement, T5 and more wounds and have 9 attacks at a higher strength with al-1.

 

if you compare points for points Bloodclaws to TWC the damage output on infantry is roughly the same but the TWC move faster, are harder to kill and don’t rely on the charge as much as Bloodclaws, the BC are also not susceptible to blast and morale. Bloodclaws will do better again lower toughness with worse save and TWC will do better against tougher units with higher saves.

 

I’ll repeat it again as people seem to be ignoring this, I’m not saying TWC are great, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be better, I’m not even saying they are out best anti infantry unit, I’m saying they can do that job better than they can do anti vehicle/monster role because they are getting an extra 3 attacks that actually do some meaningful damage, I mean we pay for the 3 mount attacks so why not actually get some value out of them? 

 

They will not be an efficient anti vehicle/monster hunter until their points are dropped to a level where you can just ignore the mount attacks or the mount attacks are removed for more rider attacks. That isn’t going to happen so you need to look at what the unit can do instead of getting upset because it can’t do what you want it to.

 

 

Your own post shows what I was saying earlier. Shooting units completely fulfill the option of anti infantry far better than TWC. The only niche role they fill is fast mobile anti vehicle/monster with TH/SS.  You can't ignore what units can do in shooting or melee when judging their worth. You said TWC aren't great. They aren't even *competent* at either role you want to put them in. Anti vehicle with current rules and points? Not good at all. Wulfen/WG termies are better. Anti infantry with current rules and points? Not good at all.

 

I asked this before and you didn't respond. What role do TWC actually excel in 8th and now 9th? Why would take them for anything other than fluff? This is what I was talking about in my earlier post. A unit's value has to be considered in context and with the reality that units are in competition not just with other armies but within their own army list. For TWC to have a place it means something else is being left out esp. now in 9th with points being hiked up and less detachments being used.

 

TWC in this environment are simply terrible. Other units clear infantry better and cheaper. Other units clear vehicle/monster better and cheaper. There's no place for TWC in 9th just as there was no room for them in 8th. 

 

That is my main issue with the unit. You keep saying that they are designed for anti infantry which I disagree with. You clear infantry chaff screen with the wolf attacks but the main attacks of TH are what kills vehicles/monsters. At least that is what they used to be able to do, very well, in previous editions. 

[PeteySödes]

=][=   I'm not going to lock the thread but we're on a thunderwolf time out for 24 hours.   =][=

[TiguriusX]

=][= I'm not going to lock the thread but we're on a thunderwolf time out for 24 hours. =][=

So uh...storm shields 2++ save amirite?

 

J/k

 

Are all new editions this bad?

 

I was never this involved in the past...9th edition transition is ugly so far

[TheWolfLord]

Apologies I had already started typing a reply before this post, I’ll remove it now but just wanted to let you know that I wasn’t ignoring you in case you see it first.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by TheWolfLord

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Tigurius most edition changes aren’t this bad in reaction. They are mostly slight changes. I started in 3rd so I don’t know how the transition from 2 to 3 was. It was a big change rules wise too.

 

7 to 8 was big but seems like less outrage than 8 to 9. I also think with all the bad stuff going on in the world that our moods are more on edge even if we don’t realize it. For what it’s worth the dark eldar communities are more upset than we are. All of their troops went up A LOT in points. We seem to be falling into retreaded arguments about specific unit options.

[TheWolfLord]

 

=][= I'm not going to lock the thread but we're on a thunderwolf time out for 24 hours. =][=

So uh...storm shields 2++ save amirite?

 

J/k

 

Are all new editions this bad?

 

I was never this involved in the past...9th edition transition is ugly so far

 

Pretty much but 7th to 8th was probably worse.

 

Lots of different opinions about changes in points or how to use different units in a new edition.

 

It can calm down as people get a chance to test but there’s always differing opinions.

 

Space Wolves have been awful for a while now and understandably people get frustrated.

[Kallas]

=][=   Let's take it down about 20% brothers.   =][=

 

That's what I appreciates about you Inquisitor Sodes.

 

I thinks Professor Trisha would be quites happy withs the Space Wolves in 9ths Editions.

 

[Bulwyf]

 

Apologies I had already started typing a reply before this post, I’ll remove it now but just wanted to let you know that I wasn’t ignoring you in case you see it first.

 

 

It is all good. We aren't really disagreeing that much. I'll not comment further until we can discuss this further I guess since a mod posted about a time out.

[Bulwyf]

Tigurius most edition changes aren’t this bad in reaction. They are mostly slight changes. I started in 3rd so I don’t know how the transition from 2 to 3 was. It was a big change rules wise too.

 

7 to 8 was big but seems like less outrage than 8 to 9. I also think with all the bad stuff going on in the world that our moods are more on edge even if we don’t realize it. For what it’s worth the dark eldar communities are more upset than we are. All of their troops went up A LOT in points. We seem to be falling into retreaded arguments about specific unit options.

 

I play Dark Eldar as well and they got absolutely hosed by the points changes. Their entire army options simply don't work with how expensive their troops are now. 

 

I grumble about Space Wolves for valid reasons. We were the worst army in 8th bar none the entire run of 8th edition. I am not optimistic about 9th because the only good things we have (sans new Ragnar and Wulfen) are essentially just generic Primaris options that all loyalists get. 

[Fang_Guard23]

I think we need to wait and play some games before we assume Space Wolves are rubbish because of these points changes. Everyone’s points went up and because of the changes to terrain we may be able to actually reach combat now, we are the hardest hitting combat army so it just makes sense that if we are getting to combat we are better and therefore our best units need to cost more.

 

Again TWC have received some major boosts, their survivability has increased, obscured and dense terrain means they’ll take less damage during the first couple of turns compared to 8th, they can finally be put in reserve and basically get On the Hunt now if needed so will always get the opportunity for a charge which is more than they often got in 8th. One of their biggest weaknesses has also been removed with the addition of the vertical engagement range. They only increased by 5 points which is less than other units so comparably they became cheaper.

 

Do I think they are still too expensive? My gut says a little, but they are going to be far better than they were in 8th and in comparison to other units they got a net points drop too so are they really one of the big losers here?

I agree, everyone just do a rough draft list, and then use the TT sim to run them and break it down from there

[Fang_Guard23]

To the rest of the discussion, I'm going to try and squeeze in TWC and/or terminators again, but I think our troops are especially set up to do well this edition and could feel like the patient counter charge play we used to focus on. I'd agree we have some of the best incursors still, and our other troops aren't bad. We can win a lot of troop fights for the objective control. I'm excited to get the points and see what we can fit in.

Our troops are battleline units and are designed to clear and take objectives while our more specialized units are to take down or counter enemies, but they are also designed to provide support for  battleline units if they get into trouble. Grey Hunters can only support an objective with a plasma or melta gun for so long. Stop thinking of this entirely of Rock Paper Scissors, and use tactical outflanking maneuver's to outwit the enemy. Because of the Strategic Reserves you can outflank a tank or a unit of TWC to provide support in a better firing position or charging position. Cut off enemy fire support.

 

"THINK OF SOMETHING NEW"

[theprophetofwar]

I am.

Can't wait to get the official books and get cracking

Edited July 16, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[C0deb1ue]

 

 

Tigurius most edition changes aren’t this bad in reaction. They are mostly slight changes. I started in 3rd so I don’t know how the transition from 2 to 3 was. It was a big change rules wise too.

 

7 to 8 was big but seems like less outrage than 8 to 9. I also think with all the bad stuff going on in the world that our moods are more on edge even if we don’t realize it. For what it’s worth the dark eldar communities are more upset than we are. All of their troops went up A LOT in points. We seem to be falling into retreaded arguments about specific unit options.

I play Dark Eldar as well and they got absolutely hosed by the points changes. Their entire army options simply don't work with how expensive their troops are now.

 

I grumble about Space Wolves for valid reasons. We were the worst army in 8th bar none the entire run of 8th edition. I am not optimistic about 9th because the only good things we have (sans new Ragnar and Wulfen) are essentially just generic Primaris options that all loyalists get.

And the generic Primaris options that were good all got massive hikes in price (bar Ragnar). There’s very little at the moment to suggest big changes to our previous issues.

[dice4thedicegod]

So, I’ve seen Ragnar as going up either 5 points or 25 points. Do we know which it is?

[Valerian]

So, I’ve seen Ragnar as going up either 5 points or 25 points. Do we know which it is?

 

Both.  He went up 5 points in cost from his most recent incarnation's price in Saga of the Beast, from 120 to 125.  He went up 25 points from his old (non-Primaris) version, from 100 to 125.

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

So, I’ve seen Ragnar as going up either 5 points or 25 points. Do we know which it is?

Both. He went up 5 points in cost from his most recent incarnation's price in Saga of the Beast, from 120 to 125. He went up 25 points from his old (non-Primaris) version, from 100 to 125.

Awesome- he’s still great value then.

 

Thanks!

[Valerian]

He’s worth twice his cost, but keep that on the down low.

[dice4thedicegod]

He’s worth twice his cost, but keep that on the down low.

Particularly if the meta becomes opponents putting primaris troops on midfield objectives. Neo Ragnar was made to reap primaris.

[sturguard]

Do we know how much grey hunters and blood claws cost. I think intercessors are 100 right for a 5 man squad with no upgrades?

[Valerian]

Do we know how much grey hunters and blood claws cost. I think intercessors are 100 right for a 5 man squad with no upgrades?

 

Yes, that's right.  Grey Knights and Blood Claws are 15 points per model, base, in 9e.

[sturguard]

Thats not too bad, they should be around 12-13 to the intercessor 20, given the intercessors have double wounds and better guns, but 45 extra points for 3 squads of 5 isnt going to break the bank. 

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, it’s not too penal... but it’s still going from 3:2 ratio to 4:3.  Primaris accelerating away in terms of effectiveness.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

He’s worth twice his cost, but keep that on the down low.

Particularly if the meta becomes opponents putting primaris troops on midfield objectives. Neo Ragnar was made to reap primaris.

Pretty much all of the primaris characters are really good against Intercessors (and in general). We just don't encounter them much because smash captains were ridiculous for all of 8th. My brother plays Salamanders and their captain is a beast. So it'll be interesting to see how much they show up now.

[Roland Durendal]

My only point of discussion to consider, having played competitive wolves from 4th thru 7th...while these points raises seem...painful and obnoxious, that’s because we grew accustomed to the points cheap environment of 9th. Looking at a lot of these costs, they are almost identical, or dang close, to 5th edition points. There are exceptions of course (65pt Rhinos!! Man I miss it when they were 35...)Even down to how they use the rule of 5 for upgrades. If you haven’t already and if you played in 5th, look at what a typical list you ran back then composed of and start mentally envisioning that in 9th Ed terms. This will help you plan/build a list but also get a feel for how much smaller your army will be.

 

As for TWC...they’re still 5pts cheaper than in 5th, and I don’t recall anyone at any of the major tourneys I went to (including NOVA2011) running large TWC packs. Maybe a squad of 5? But usually they were smaller and didn’t feature all TH/SS. I personally ran a pack of 3 with 1 TH/SS, the rest were either SS/BP or SS/Chainsword. Attach a WL on TWC and they could take on infantry of MCs. Rambling aside, I think TWC in this edition will be fine, but again it’ll take rethinking how to use them. Toss out how they were used in 8th, or even 7th. Look at how they played in 5th

[Guest Triszin]

How many points are the bladegaurd dudes?