Collaborative CSM Fandex for 9th?

[MegaVolt87]

Honestly, we should not be limited for soup mixing, we don't have doctrines or super doctrines/ equivilents that would make us have busted combo's like SM could potentially. dual-triple legion mixing etc can work I think, either as a scratch force, proper black crusade or a group of vets who would rather stick together than return to their legions proper, more loyal to each other. 

[Jings]

Honestly, we should not be limited for soup mixing, we don't have doctrines or super doctrines/ equivilents that would make us have busted combo's like SM could potentially. dual-triple legion mixing etc can work I think, either as a scratch force, proper black crusade or a group of vets who would rather stick together than return to their legions proper, more loyal to each other. 

 

We absolutely *should* have some sort of super doctrine. While I don't think we should make it an exact copy of the Loyalists, it would be a bit daft to not add one in if we're doing the Codex. Probably not as all encompassing as the SM one, but a slight buff on top of some faction-wide stuff. 

 

Soup shouldn't be discouraged, but it shouldn't be the core of the army or gameplay (for most legions). I think an ability to take certain Allied detachments that (in certain conditions) don't break the super doctrines is a good place to start. I'm thinking along the lines of: 

 

Black Legion: Can take other Legion/Renegade allies without breaking doctrine (in the style of my previous post) 

Iron Warriors / Alpha Legion: Can take an Astra Militarum detachment without breaking super doctrine, replacing all <Imperium> keywords with <Chaos> and <Regiment> with <Lost and the Damned> or an equivalent. 

Word Bearers: Same as above, but for Chaos Daemons. 

 

Then allow the specific cult legions access to their Daemonic cohorts through improved summoning mechanics and inbuilt keyword compatibility ala Daemonkin. 

 

A soupy faction but not THE soup faction if that makes sense. 

[techsoldaten]

Actually, I think the time is right for a proper fandex.

 

But not multiple projects. If a wide group of interested people actually collaborated, playtested, and iterated over new releases that will come with 9th edition, it could be successful.

 

The big problem with CSM is GW never improves the statlines for legacy units. Cult Troops, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs, etc - they only get attention when there's a new model released. These units become obsolete in the years that pass, that's a pain for people who like those units.

 

A fandex that just focuses on addressing those gaps, which most long-time players understand, would have widespread support and could become a thing. Could also introduce new rules for guys like Dark Apostles to let them take Jump Packs / Bikes.

[Khornestar]

Include juggernauts and I’m suddenly interested.

[Doctor Perils]

Perhaps you might want to set some milestones for brainstorming different codex sections (unit types, characters, wargear, legion traits etc.) so that the project isn't just a freeform free for all?

[Panzer]

Throwing ideas around is fun and stuff, but honestly? This will end the same way as with all the fan rules before. Only very few will use it and those too will eventually stop doing so because it's tedious to always explain and justify why you are using madeup rules for your army when posting on the internet or playing in a FLGS. It works best when playing in private with your friends but that's that. :sweat:

And that is if it ever gets completed because people in this hobby tend to have very different opinions on what should be and why.

[techsoldaten]

Perhaps you might want to set some milestones for brainstorming different codex sections (unit types, characters, wargear, legion traits etc.) so that the project isn't just a freeform free for all?

I can suggest some, yes. If anyone is interested in discussing, all ears. Would love to support the project.

 

Going into a new edition, a fandex offers an opportunity to increase people's enjoyment of the game without having to wait a year for a new Codex. Success depends on how well it adapts Codex units to new mechanics, and also how it's received by players. You have to think about more than your passion projects, success means getting enough people to play it to say it's worth the effort.

 

A project plan would help. Here's an example to get you started.

 

 

Overall Goals:

 

- Iterate over a series of improvements to the core Codex (i.e. the Fandex)

 

- Create space for thoroughly playtesting each iteration amongst multiple teams before incorporating it into Fandex

 

- Establish and grow communication channels allowing input from the community and feedback from players

 

- Implement data-driven approach to adapting to changes in the meta over time (i.e. don't react, demonstrate)

 

 

Milestone One: Organize

 

Don't make this someone's pet project. Create opportunities for success by putting tools and structure in place that allow steady progress through collaboration. Use free / open source software.

 

- Nominate managers for the project. Figure out roles.

 

- Create an ideas forum, some place that lists all the ideas people have and gives them a way to vote.

 

- Create a Kanban board listing the ideas the team will work on. Allow the public to see it, allow managers to update it.

 

- Create a feedback channel, where people can comment on their experiences.

 

- Create Battlescribe project. Copy existing CSM data file and prepare it for Fandex updates.

 

- Create template for Fandex. Decide how unit entries will look before it's time to publish.

 

- Create template for Mathhammer. Show how changes affect shooting and CC vs GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, PEQ. Just take a spreadsheet someone already created and use it to plug in your own numbers.

 

- Establish some boundaries around how units are analyzed. Stats, Legion Traits, Stratagems, Wargear, Points, etc. Be clear about what you will look at, you can always expand the definition later.

 

- Assign someone to be in charge of follow up. Make sure things are getting done, know the status of all things.

 

 

Milestone Two: Abandoned Units

 

Take advantage of people's nostalgia for older units that don't get much love. Provide them with a robust set of rules and make them worth considering for a list.

 

- Units for this milestone: Chosen, Possessed, Havocs.

 

- Examine each unit within boundaries. Decide on changes.

 

- Publish to Fandex template, Battlescribe file, Mathhammer template.

 

- Open for beta testing. Get feedback from players in at least 10 games.

 

- Update as appropriate.

 

- When satisfied, publish Fandex v 1.0.

 

 

Milestone Three: Cult Troops

 

Cult Troops are always tricky. They appear in multiple Codexes, there might be some missing (i.e. Khorne Terminators), and they might not have the right tools for the job. Fix them early to show what you can do with this project.

 

- Units for this milestone: Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubrics.

 

- Units that could be added as a result of this milestone: Khorne Terminators, Noise Marine Terminators.

 

- Repeat process steps from Milestone Two.

 

- When satisfied, publish Fandex v 1.1.

 

 

Milestone Four: Kanban

 

By this point, the team should have an active ideas board. Review ideas and rank them for importance. Draw from the board to determine units for updates. Proceed with the process. By working in smaller batches, you have a lot of opportunity for review from the community. Keep each iteration short so people can deal with changes in batches.

 

 

Milestone X: Review

 

Once the team has made it through about 50% of the Codex, stop and review progress. Dedicate a milestone to going back and correcting issues, responding to feedback from the community, and marketing / promoting the Codex on all channels (Dakka / Facebook / Reddit / etc.) Review team roles and discuss whether they are all still appropriate. Improve communication channels to ensure they suit the purpose. Measure feedback from the community in terms of volume and product quality.

[Doctor Perils]

I agree pretty much on your "organise" point, but I'd say you need a fairly general brainstorming phase just after that before moving on to such and such a unit. In fact, deciding which units get worked on first or last seems like a much later development

 

First you need to agree on how wide ranging this fandex is supposed to be: should it be for _all_ chaos? Or _only_ heretic astartes to the point where you get rid of cultists? Perhaps cultists should stay but be expanded upon, making them a playable faction on their own, or not.

 

Second you'd want to agree on whether there should be any new super-faction abilities (akin to space marine doctrines, or even Know no Fear), and what form those take.

 

Then I'd argue you want to look at what role units are supposed to fulfill and how they synergise before actually playing with the rules of any given unit. You may even want to create or delete new unit concepts at this stage: perhaps some would feel like a new anti-horde infantry shooting unit related to but separate from Havocs would be a good idea; perhaps others might feel that CSMs are redundant compared to chosen, so get rid of the old CSM unit and only update the chosen as troops.

-> wargear discussions, like whether to include volkite, ectoplasma guns and the like, should happen alongside that

 

_Then_ we can get into doing proper rules updates for such and such a unit :)

 

 

However, I will say that by milestone I mean associating an objective with a tentative date, like: version 0.1 of the fandex, with just the new super-faction rule should be ready by January 1st 2021. It gives you something to aim at (even if you reassess to push it back or bring it forward or change it altogether).

However, that first means people need to agree on how long a project they want this to be: do you plan on getting something playable in two months, and leaving it there; or do you plan on keeping it updated with new official releases?

This crucial question will help inform potential participants on whether they actually want to join up; and how ambitious this project can be realistically.

 

 

 

TL;DR: set how long you want to spend on this first, then get to the actual planning

[techsoldaten]

I agree pretty much on your "organise" point, but I'd say you need a fairly general brainstorming phase just after that before moving on to such and such a unit. In fact, deciding which units get worked on first or last seems like a much later development

 

Yeah, specific units were used as an example. Pick others you want, advice is to set the bar low and stick with something familiar.

 

You will be judged by first impressions. That goes not only for the statlines but the way you communicate about the Fandex. You want to market this to achieve critical mass, and marketing should be more than forum posts. Have information in familiar formats that can be easily shared across other platforms.

 

First you need to agree on how wide ranging this fandex is supposed to be: should it be for _all_ chaos? Or _only_ heretic astartes to the point where you get rid of cultists? Perhaps cultists should stay but be expanded upon, making them a playable faction on their own, or not.

 

Second you'd want to agree on whether there should be any new super-faction abilities (akin to space marine doctrines, or even Know no Fear), and what form those take.

 

Cannot think of a reason to answer questions like this up front.

 

If the goal is to write something for the satisfaction of writing it, great. If the goal is to appeal to a mass of players and improve their playing experience, then they are going to answer questions like this for you. Create feedback tools, make decisions based on data, correct course as appropriate.

 

Then I'd argue you want to look at what role units are supposed to fulfill and how they synergise before actually playing with the rules of any given unit. You may even want to create or delete new unit concepts at this stage: perhaps some would feel like a new anti-horde infantry shooting unit related to but separate from Havocs would be a good idea; perhaps others might feel that CSMs are redundant compared to chosen, so get rid of the old CSM unit and only update the chosen as troops.

-> wargear discussions, like whether to include volkite, ectoplasma guns and the like, should happen alongside that

 

Yeah, that goes to the point about boundaries from the plan. Write a short list of what you will look at with revisions and stick to it. Revise it if / when necessary.

 

New unit concepts do not belong at the start of a project like this. People will not know what you are talking about.

 

Every product solves a need for someone, it's either a pain or a gain. The current CSM Codex is pain - weak, ineffectual units that can't compete in the current meta. A gain would be a new unit. No use for more datasheets while people are hurting. That's where GW drops the ball.

 

_Then_ we can get into doing proper rules updates for such and such a unit

 

However, I will say that by milestone I mean associating an objective with a tentative date, like: version 0.1 of the fandex, with just the new super-faction rule should be ready by January 1st 2021. It gives you something to aim at (even if you reassess to push it back or bring it forward or change it altogether).

However, that first means people need to agree on how long a project they want this to be: do you plan on getting something playable in two months, and leaving it there; or do you plan on keeping it updated with new official releases?

This crucial question will help inform potential participants on whether they actually want to join up; and how ambitious this project can be realistically.

 

TL;DR: set how long you want to spend on this first, then get to the actual planning

No, milestone just means carrying a discrete effort to completion.

 

A team can put dates in place if they are appropriate. For something like this, I would take the time to figure out everyone's pace first and whether or not they want to work together. I'd measure the time it takes to execute on units X / Y / Z and use that for planning dates. Always keep them tentative and talk about the factors that allow you to accelerate.

[Doctor Perils]

Very good points all around :)