What are things we can do without now

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is my list:

 

Chaplains

Eliminators

 

I want to include the TFC but is such a tactical unit.

[Lukoi]

I dropped Elimators from my list.  I used to run 2 sets, and they never seemed to turn the tide of battle for me in my 10 or so matches with them.  Not that they weren't probably undercosted, but they just weren't as impressive as advertised.  They got bumped from my 9e list.

 

Were it not for the utility of blast, and tremor shell strategem, I'd also be dropping the TFC from my list.  The price increase does hurt, but I've relied on it moreso for it's utility and killing lightly armored small units for things like "kill more," or to get ride of those thin skinned guys T'au sometimes use for marker lights (pathfinders maybe?). 

 

I'm having a hard time bringing the ITWS back to my list. It's off my current 9e list, but I've got enough points left over to add one.  I just cannot decide if the range and the fist are enough to offset my simply buying a third eradicator squad, and a 6th aggressor. Decisions, decisions.

 

Assault intercessors, while very cool looking, don't do the melee thing as well as BG vets for an extremely similar cost and definitely aren't as durable, so while I considered adding them, they didn't make the cut for me.  I don't see any list I make in the current points model exceeding my elite slots for a BN.

 

I'm super glad points have leaked so furious theoryhammer can continue unabated, and with wild abandon at this point.

 

I am sorta sad that the maps got smaller, and the model counts got smaller.  I liked the 2k size in 8e.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lukoi

[Dracos]

No but it keeps me drifting back to working on a new paint scheme for my RG successors. I can't do a true analysis until Battlescribe gets the new points dropped and I can see the Grand Tournament 2020 book, so its a bit early for me.

 

From what I've read and heard ... 

 

I was never running Centurion spam so my list hopefully won't be effected like some. I always build to have 3-4 groups within my army.

 1) deployment zone blocking units (usually three units of inexpensive shooters)

 - I am going with two (instead of three) Eliminators and an Intercessor squad

 

 2) two midfield mission teams - each consisting of a Infiltrator squad and Assault Intercessors will Infiltrate pregame as support.

 - Here is where points come into play. I would like to Blade Guard or Eradicators to Strike from the Shadows these three units are designed to support each other claiming the midboard objectives for at least two turns.

 

3) rapid response strike team of <Shrike> or Biker Chaplain? and a unit of Plasma-Inceptors or Aggressors to counter-assault where my midfield mission teams are in the most trouble.

 

 

Given scoring system if I can hold my Objective and the two midfield objectives til Turn 3 I should win most VP games if I don'y totally wiff on Secondaries.

 

I need to see the points and more mission details though. This basic plan would require either Impulsors or Strategic Reserves but the gameplan is the same. Build squad of units designed to grab and hold with a reserve force to counter assault where needed.

 

I'll likely be sell/trade my Bolter Inceptors and building Plasma Inceptors.

I might be doing the same with my Boltstorm Aggressors for the Flamestorm Aggressors (not optimal but have reasons)

I'll lose a unit of Eliminators but too good to lose with Raven Guard.

 

HQs should be interesting. I usually build an army with them as my last decision. That way if some snarky RG players hoots them dead the army still has a functioning game plan :)

 

I imagine the "old" Primaris Chaplain will get retired. I love the Judicar, and both the new and bike Chaplain. The Bladeguard HQs look good and I'll liekly never play the Grav-Captain I painted during Covid :(  already planning a conversion smashing the Cpt and Lt Bladeguard models. Not a fan of the shield on the Cpt. 

 

Rarely used the Phobos Librarian. As much as I LOVE the Chaplains, the Libbie might be a darkhorse after we know more. 

 

Points and Mission details needed though get back to you in a couple weeks :)

[Lukoi]

You've got plenty of wiggle room looks like Dracos - If I'm parsing your list correctly, you're at about 1k before you reach the part of your list discussing HQ's and so forth.

 

DZ Block

• 2 x elims 84 ea (unless you're going for the fusilers, but doesn't seem to be the case)
• 1 x intercessor - 100

midfield teams

• 2 x infiltrators - 120 ea
• 2 x assault ints - 100 (assuming ya give the plasma pistol to sergeants)

QRF

• Shrike (135) or Biker Chaplain (130)
• Inceptors with plasma exterminators x 5 - 250, or Aggressors x 5 - 225 with boltstorms/FGL, or 200 with flamestorm gaunts

 

So you're somewhere in the 1038-1088 range.  Obviously you can easily go to six Inceptors/Aggressors.  They don't mind bunching up a bit :)  Eradicators are a steal at 120 per 3-pack I think, and the BG Vets are extremely solid in melee at 105.  I definitely want to take more myself.

[Dracos]

:)

 

x5 ... *sniffle* you know me so well. teary eyed under my helm.

 

 

 

edit: Now I just need a Necron player to trade with :D

Edited July 14, 2020 by Dracos

[Brother Kraskor]

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

[MegaVolt87]

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

Yes eliminators are completely useless, you don't need to take them at all against factions like CSM players who never need to lean heavily on HQ slots.   

[Minsc]

 

 

What are things we can do without now

 

I'd say "everything", because even with the new point hikes there are no units who are actually bad in our codex.

Some units are better or worse than others, sure, but no units will outright hurt your list by bringing it.
 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

Yes eliminators are completely useless, you don't need to take them at all against factions like CSM players who never need to lean heavily on HQ slots.   

 

 

BT can't take them anyway without shedding zeal.  But then we do have the Emperor's Champion for killing characters. 

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

Yes eliminators are completely useless, you don't need to take them at all against factions like CSM players who never need to lean heavily on HQ slots.   

 

 

BT can't take them anyway without shedding zeal.  But then we do have the Emperor's Champion for killing characters. 

 

 

You guys will get the judicator though as well, perfect wingman for your EC, and its an amazing looking model to boot. 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

 

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

Yes eliminators are completely useless, you don't need to take them at all against factions like CSM players who never need to lean heavily on HQ slots.   

 

 

BT can't take them anyway without shedding zeal.  But then we do have the Emperor's Champion for killing characters. 

 

 

You guys will get the judicator though as well, perfect wingman for your EC, and its an amazing looking model to boot. 

 

 

Trouble with taking them both is you've then only got 1 HQ to choose between Chaplains and Captains. Tricky, I imagine some will roll with a Judicar 'counts as' EC, but again a big zeal sacrifice.

[Mandragola]

I ran a brigade for the last tournament I went to, which was the UKGT finals at Warhammer World. I expect the new force org charts will change this a lot. I ran the brigade to get CPs but now there's no need to. That reduces the need for all the <100 point units I used to have, like eliminators and suppressors. Now, if I'm working with just a battalion, I'll be working with a limited number of slots rather than trying to fill slots. That's very different. And in theory I can use fewer troops and HQs, though I doubt that will happen.

 

I wasn't that impressed by Eliminators. For one thing, most enemies seemed to ignore cover, and that made their camo cloaks pointless. I don't see that changing, and they're obviously hurt by the changes to LoS. It's going to be harder for them to spot characters to snipe.

 

I could see myself bringing in a Vindicare Assassin to do my sniping. He's about the same cost as the Eliminators but comes with character protection of his own, and is very hard to shoot. He's also now allowed without breaking doctrines and so on now, and I get twice as many elite slots to work with as heavy.

 

I took 2 suppressor squads and a unit of scout bikes for fast attack. The bikes were rubbish but the suppressors were pretty good. They've been hurt a lot by the change to doctrines though. I think that there are now fast attack choices I'd want to bring, like outriders and potentially inceptors, that mean the suppressors get edged out.

 

In general I think the option to put more stuff in reserve hurts fists. People can keep their vehicles off the board in turn one, to skip the time when our heavy weapons are supercharged. To be fair, this is probably good for the game. Fists felt too good and first turn shooting did too much damage.

 

In Heavy support I brought a stalker and two units of eliminators. The eliminators are out. The stalker is still sort of good but I'm not sure if it makes the cut. I managed ok without a TFC but they're obviously great, so one of those makes sense now regardless of its slightly increased cost. My Leviathan dread now looks ridiculously good so he'll be coming I think. I might be taking only that and a TFC in heavy support. A squad of eradicators might make the cut too.

 

I could also see myself using a repulsor or two. These are useful in that they don't take up a slot. Their cost actually hasn't gone up by vast amounts and I think they're possibly better value than executioners now. There's clearly a good case for being able to deploy things like eradicators and bladeguard vets in the relative safety of a transport.

 

We've been told to expect new rules for all the FW stuff. Certain units, like the Leviathan and relic contemptor look awesome right now but they might not still be quite so amazing in a few months' time. As such I'm not sure whether I should be building lists around them.

[Dracos]

edit: wrong rule

 

I was hoping they "fixed" the broken Siege Master type of rules so it offset the camo-cloak ... but no, it's still OP. More so with new Terrain rules.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Dracos

[Riddlesworth]

I wrote an essay then realised it didn't really answer the OP's question.

 

What I'm doing without:

- the 3rd unit of eliminators (to make room for eradicators)

- suppressors (to make room for outriders)

- the 3rd hq choice because I don't need a brigade

- the foot chaplain (because father pain on a bike is the closest pure primaris have to a smash captain. But he ain't half bad)

 

Of course I'm buying an army with some tight restrictions - primaris only. Bolter fusilades successor tactic (so if it doesn't have a bolter it needs to be really good to make it in. See eradicators) and a combat bent (whirlwind of rage on incursors, for example)

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

 

I would have thought Eliminators would be more important now HQs are at more of a premium? And with changes to Look out Sir they will be less isolated than before, so the value of just ignoring their screens in a way has increased?

Yes eliminators are completely useless, you don't need to take them at all against factions like CSM players who never need to lean heavily on HQ slots.   

 

 

BT can't take them anyway without shedding zeal.  But then we do have the Emperor's Champion for killing characters. 

 

 

You guys will get the judicator though as well, perfect wingman for your EC, and its an amazing looking model to boot. 

 

 

Trouble with taking them both is you've then only got 1 HQ to choose between Chaplains and Captains. Tricky, I imagine some will roll with a Judicar 'counts as' EC, but again a big zeal sacrifice.

 

 

Oh? Judicator is a HQ? I must be living under a rock then, he feels like an elite like how a company champ is. SM and CSM have the same problem now on struggling to fill HQ's so much competition now.   

[FinalCookie]

 

 

 

 

 

Snip!

Snip!

 

Snip!

 

Snip!

 

 

Snip!

 

 

Oh? Judicator is a HQ? I must be living under a rock then, he feels like an elite like how a company champ is. SM and CSM have the same problem now on struggling to fill HQ's so much competition now.   

 

 

No, you were right. The Judicar takes up an elite slot, if this screenshot is anything to go by:

 

https://preview.redd.it/6ybvn3x3rh851.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=59dafd6f6d24f78235e13238837b7e39260751e3

 

I've been thinking along similar lines, basically using the thing as a Primaris Emperor's Champion equivalent and using it to take down characters and protect a big blob in the midfield.

[Dracos]

Seems like the BT take exception to the Judicar playing as Emperor's Champion ;)

 

 

 

In fairness, the lore describes as being different even though we are using them in similar roles on the table top ... so if you're choosing things one can do without now, I guess it depends on what excites you, lore or playing?

[Brother Kraskor]

Oh hoho he's an Elite is he? Well that changes everything!

[Mandragola]

Interesting that he’s an elite. I don’t know if that makes me want to include him more, or less. He’ll be getting a head swap though, either way. He could be pretty useful if I end up going with a couple of units of aggressors and Pedro - that would be a tricky castle to attack with him in it making things fight last.

 

The fast attack slot has been really shaken up. Outriders now exist and inceptors have seen significant price cuts. Access to these new good units changes what we need from other sections of the list, as does the arrival of Eradicators.

 

A lot of units we’ve been given recently have their unit size capped at 3, and that’s quite a big problem. They can’t protect characters all that well any more. I think this is an argument for aggressors and inceptors, probably in units of 5 rather than 6, to hang around with characters. My leviathan, which is very tough and only does d3 mortals if it explodes, might be a good character babysitter.

[Riddlesworth]

The limitation of 3 is a really big point. The assumption when eliminators and suppressors were released was that the codex/box set release would make them 3-6 like aggressora and inceptors but neither of those things happened, so assuming eradicators and outriders will get bigger size is dangerous.

[Ishagu]

The Eliminators are specifically small, infiltration units.

 

The Suppressors are suffering from a case of not having a full kit release, hence they were stuck in squads of 3, imo.

 

Eradicators are Gravis units like Inceptors and Aggressors, and Inceptors did have a limit of 3 initially.

[Brother Kraskor]

The limitation of 3 is a really big point. The assumption when eliminators and suppressors were released was that the codex/box set release would make them 3-6 like aggressora and inceptors but neither of those things happened, so assuming eradicators and outriders will get bigger size is dangerous.

 

I was in the "they'll get bigger" camp but actually I think you're right to say we should be wary. Bladeguard especially.

[Mandragola]

I think that the best we can say for now is that we don't know if squad sizes will go up. I'd be pretty surprised to get a new marine codex so soon after the last one, though it would also be unusual for marines not to be the first codex released in any edition. Other than the arrival of these new models, there's no reason I can see to bring out a new marine codex.

 

I don't actually think we can assume there will be multi part kits of any of this stuff. Do they actually need them, or would GW be better off sticking the Indomitus stuff in a start collecting box, like they did with Shadowspear, and filling their shelf space with something else? I guess if they do produce multipart kits then the ones on the shared sprue, which contains the bladeguard, eradicators and characters, might be more likely to get them than the bikes and intercessors. We might see those in "Know No Fear" style boxes instead.

 

Ultimately this is all guess work. I think we should plan for what we know. The marine range generally changes pretty often with new releases, so by the time the thing we predict has/has not happened, some other thing has often happened as well.

[Doghouse]

I think not having multipart Assault Intercessors would be a bit of a missed opportunity because it would allow them to include the likes of thunder hammers, power fists, power swords, etc, that could be used on tactical Intercessors.

Getting into the realms of guessing I'm expecting a bike set mainly because when they released the ad mech cavalry the designers said that they wanted as many poses as possible within the kit.

 

Eradicators are a tough call, I'm hoping 3+ models per unit but that is going to depend on whether they get a new kit.

 

I fully expect to see the characters as clam packs and maybe a light version of Indominus for the starter as the characters, bikes and Assault Intercessors seem to be on self contained sprues.

[Mandragola]

I think not having multipart Assault Intercessors would be a bit of a missed opportunity because it would allow them to include the likes of thunder hammers, power fists, power swords, etc, that could be used on tactical Intercessors.

Good point, I agree that's the opportunity. However, doing that would mean making a kit for in-game reasons, and I think the Primaris line works the other way around. If GW wanted to provide equipment for Sergeants in multi part kits they've had loads of chances to do it before now.