Plastic Heresy Spitballing - [BASELESS SPECULATION]

[Noserenda]

The problem with grand plans is they dont fit that "5 man" sprue layout that specialist games tend to stick to (Usually boxed with 2 as a 10 man squad/team/gang) like an assault squad you can possibly squeeze on but jump packs unfortunately still take a load of sprue space. Id rather aim for a full tactical squad set of options so Bolter, Bolt pistol, Chainswords for all which you can flex to different kits and easily pop the remains of the resin upgrades range on to make Breachers and other support squads until maybe a few quarters/years down the line when you could do say a breacher sprue which could include its own bodies etc or just be packaged with the original sprue 1:1 to make a 5 man squad (But preferably available separately like the AT knights one was).

But yeah, overall look at Specialist games rather than the flagship 40k range for what is possible.

 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The problem with grand plans is they dont fit that "5 man" sprue layout that specialist games tend to stick to (Usually boxed with 2 as a 10 man squad/team/gang) like an assault squad you can possibly squeeze on but jump packs unfortunately still take a load of sprue space. Id rather aim for a full tactical squad set of options so Bolter, Bolt pistol, Chainswords for all which you can flex to different kits and easily pop the remains of the resin upgrades range on to make Breachers and other support squads until maybe a few quarters/years down the line when you could do say a breacher sprue which could include its own bodies etc or just be packaged with the original sprue 1:1 to make a 5 man squad (But preferably available separately like the AT knights one was).

 

But yeah, overall look at Specialist games rather than the flagship 40k range for what is possible.

 

 

 

True for Necromunda/ Blood Bowl, but Titanicus has a whole range of sprue sizes in its range

[Noserenda]

For the titans yeah, i suspect they squeeze those in due to popularity and put out the knights as a more regular SG release. Good point on them being a possibility though! Would be awesome for things like a Rhino or Sicarian to base stuff off.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

For the titans yeah, i suspect they squeeze those in due to popularity and put out the knights as a more regular SG release. Good point on them being a possibility though! Would be awesome for things like a Rhino or Sicarian to base stuff off.

 

Yeah, it's almost a shame that the Sicaran variants all have completely different turret designs, as it makes it less likely that a hypothetical plastic version could serve multiple variants - but for just the base Battle Tank, the Sicaran could almost certainly fit on fewer sprues than the Land Raider, especially when you consider how much they can fit on a frame now compared to when that kit was released.

[malika666]

Well...how about all the marine kits, but slightly bigger, with better proportions?

[Master Sheol]

Well...how about all the marine kits, but slightly bigger, with better proportions?

They have already a lot of plastic/resin kits with the old proportions so i dont see FW/GW altering that

I would like upscaled firstborns like they did with CSM but it's unlikely to happen

 

I hope they will make new plastic kits for existing basic resin units but i don't think it will happen too

Edited August 1, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they have started upscaling them. The DA Interemptors match the new CSM scale, when I compare them to mk iii plastic and a new CSM model. Edited August 1, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Robbienw]

Yep, they switched to the slightly taller csm/deathwatch/space marine heroes scale a while ago. Think i first noticed it on the Praevian and Vigilator models when they were released, about a year and a half ago.

[Master Sheol]

Yep, they switched to the slightly taller csm/deathwatch/space marine heroes scale a while ago. Think i first noticed it on the Praevian and Vigilator models when they were released, about a year and a half ago.

The New CSM are taller than the DW and PA heroes and just slightly smaller than the primaris

They are the right scale the firstborn should be

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

The New CSM are taller than the DW and PA heroes and just slightly smaller than the primaris

They are the right scale the firstborn should be

 

The newer sculpts are starting to match that size. They might be nominally shorter, perhaps 1mm, but not much. They are, however, noticeably taller than a MK III plastic kit.

 

I think it's pretty certain that any future classic marine sculpts, HH, CSM, etc. will be in the same scale as the new CSM range.

 

Edit: Took a calipers to get some measurements - MK III marine is about 35.5 mm tall, a CSM from shadowspear is about 38 mm tall and a Dreadwing Interemptor is about 37 mm tall, although some of this may be his pose as he leans forward instead of standing upright.

 

Here is an image of them. Did some alterations on the post as I did more investigation.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[WrathOfTheLion]

Did some edits to the post above as I did some measurements, etc. In my measurements, it seems like the CSM are about 10% taller than the existing marines. The newer sculpts from FW are just shy of that, but 37mm looks much closer to 38mm than to 34-36mm of the older SM sculpts.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Assuming Mark 2 will be rereleased, we deduce the following; it will be done in CAD design (with all the pros and cons of that). Which means it can be scaled up, and scaled down digitally, rather quickly. No doubt, they will play around with prototypes before they start making any steel moulds for the plastics.

I just hope that they decide to kill two birds with one stone, and make them assault marines (with the jump packs separate, on their own sprue alongside chainswords 1 specialist weapon) and the main sprue to have arms for bolters. Unlikely, but... It's what I would do. 
 

[Robbienw]

 

Yep, they switched to the slightly taller csm/deathwatch/space marine heroes scale a while ago. Think i first noticed it on the Praevian and Vigilator models when they were released, about a year and a half ago.

The New CSM are taller than the DW and PA heroes and just slightly smaller than the primaris

 

 

You have any size comparison pictures that show this?

[Doctor Perils]

I do wonder if there's a plastic Deimos in the works for CSM and Heresy: after all they showed that SoB Deimos immolator and exorcist

[Master Sheol]

Yep, they switched to the slightly taller csm/deathwatch/space marine heroes scale a while ago. Think i first noticed it on the Praevian and Vigilator models when they were released, about a year and a half ago.

The New CSM are taller than the DW and PA heroes and just slightly smaller than the primaris

You have any size comparison pictures that show this?

I will try to take a photo of a firstborn next to a DW veteran, a SM heroes, a CSM and a primaris

Having DA, DW and IW helps a lot

Here

From left to right: firstborn tactical, DW black shield, SM heroes tactical, Shadowspear CSM, Primaris hellblaster

Edited August 5, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Robbienw]

Looks near enough to me to between Brother Castor and the CSM, i think we can safely say they are the same scale ;)

 

The Deathwatch looks smaller, but i think you have a normal marine chestplate on him rather than a deathwatch one, he would be slightly taller a deathwatch chesplate from the kill team kit, no?

[Master Sheol]

Looks near enough to me to between Brother Castor and the CSM, i think we can safely say they are the same scale ;)

 

The Deathwatch looks smaller, but i think you have a normal marine chestplate on him rather than a deathwatch one, he would be slightly taller a deathwatch chesplate from the kill team kit, no?

The CSM is 1-1.5 mm taller than SM heroes, the DW black shield has normal sergeant front torso but back torso is DW (DW are taller on legs but the torso is the same size of other firstborn torso)

The DW looks smaller than SM heroes cause is not wearing the helmet. DW has smaller bare heads (old heads were too big to fit inside a SM helmet while DW ones look like they could fit) and when you put an helmet on them they are tall like the SM heroes

In addition SM heroes stand on taller scenic bases

Edited August 6, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think the most important thing here is that more recent sculpts from FW are approaching the CSM height, and visually look similar. Even the MK III plastic kit is sort of a prototype for how they handle Primaris right now, with the legs split to multiple pieces, etc. But, regardless of plastic, we can conclude that the miniatures for AoD moving forward will have an increased scale to be more correct.

[Master Sheol]

I think the most important thing here is that more recent sculpts from FW are approaching the CSM height, and visually look similar. Even the MK III plastic kit is sort of a prototype for how they handle Primaris right now, with the legs split to multiple pieces, etc. But, regardless of plastic, we can conclude that the miniatures for AoD moving forward will have an increased scale to be more correct.

Yes but the problem is that the plastic miniatures (mk3/4, cataphractii, Tartaros) are on the small scale of the good old firstborn and 90% of the resin miniatures too, including a lot of characters too

To redesing all those kits it's a huge task and i don't Know if FW will Be able to manage it

So new kits are upscaled an look better compared to new CSM but i dont think we Will see new redone kits for the units FW already made in smaller scale

Edited August 7, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, I do not see them redesiging the mk iii, mk iv or terminator kits.

 

I think they will redo some of the oldest ones however (MK IV assault, etc.) and take those to plastic.

[Armillion]

I would love to see more plastic kits as it would certainly help the 30k hobby massively.  I think something reasonable would be as follows.  You could argue that each would cover each legion pretty well depending on whether they favor a fast get-in-your face playstyle or favor a ranged playstyle.  

 

Obvious baseless wishlisting 

 

Rapid Strike Battleforce Boxset - $180

- MkIV Jump pack praetor w/ plasma pistol and choice of paragon blade or power axe (New character sprue)

- Tartaros Terminator Squad (existing)

- MkIV Tactical Squad (existing)

- MkIV Assault Squad (all new, 3 new sprues, 10 models)

- Diemos Rhino (2 Vehicle-sized sprues)

- Some transfer sheets, maybe some of each of the BoP and BaC sheets, Bonus points for new, very basic, transfers sheets of other legions.

- Bonus if they include another character like a plastic, recon armor Vigilator

 

Heavy Assault Battleforce Boxset - $180
- MkIII Praetor w/ thunder hammer and choice of combi-volkite or combi-grenade (New character sprue)

- Cataphractii Terminator Squad (existing)

- MkIII Tactical Squad (existing)

- MkIII Breacher Squad (uses existing MkIII tactical squad + 1 Breacher upgrade sprue)

- Diemos Predator (Diemos Rhino sprues above + 1 Predator Upgrade sprue)

- Some transfer sheets, maybe some of each of the BoP and BaC sheets, Bonus points for new, very basic, transfers sheets of other legions.

- Bonus if they include another character like a plastic, power armor Primus medicae or something

 

These kits would then breakdown as follows:

 

2x Character Sprues (2 unique character-sized sprues), make it boxset exclusive

 

Then offer everything else as follows for a total of 6 new SKUs including the boxsets, even if you make the non-boxsets webstore exclusive or something.

 

MkIV Assault Squad (3 sprues) - $60

- All new MkIV running poses, w/ 10x pairs CCW/BP, 2x power axes, 2x heavy chainblades, 2x plasma pistols, 2x hand flamers, 1x Thunder hammer, 1x combat shield, MkIV jump packs

 

MkIII Breacher Upgrade Spure (1 sprue, prebundled with a base MkIII tac kit) - $60

- 10 boarding shields, 10x replacement arm sets, 1x volkite charger, 1x graviton gun, 1x RH thunder hammer, 1x RH Power sword

 

Diemos Rhino Kit (2 vehicle sprues) - $60

- All new sprues, full Diemos Rhino hull including side doors, front plate, etc., w/ 1x of each of the following: twin-linked bolter, Havoc Launcher, HK missile, searchlight, crewman for top hatch, smoke launchers

 

Diemos Predator Kit (2 base Diemos Rhino sprues + 1 upgrade vehicle sprue) - $80

- As above + replacement front hull plate, LH and RH gun shield and sponson mount plates in place of the doors, a set of HF, HB, and LC sponsons, 1 top plate, 1 turret, Predator autocannon, plasma executioner

(congrats GW, you would now have the basis for most of your rhino based range in plastic)

 

So then the next question would be, what does this offer GW?  Well...

- They get to heavily leverage and and push more of their existing high volume plastic 30k kits (except the terrible plastic contemptor *shudders*)

- They only have to invest in 3 vehicle-sized sprues, 4 new infantry boxset sized sprues, and 2 new of the character sprues they seem to make ever other Tuesday...  This is but a tiny fraction of the number of new molds they are kicking out right now for 9th edition and AoS contiously.

- They can retire much of the non-legion unique infantry resin range that is prohibitively expensive for most of their customer base.  Heck, something like destroyers could be reduced to an upgrade kit with dual BP's, shoulder pads, helmets, and rad-missile launcher to be used with the MkIV plastic assault squad kit.

- GW keeps their practice of only offering you 1 of the gun you need in the box, making you buy multiple boxes 

- Things like the other options for the diemos kit, they now only have to make unique turrets or things like the Scorpius turret.  You get to retire a lot of rhino-based kit molds

- You free up a lot resources at FW to instead maintain your big flashy high dollar kits, only keeping the minimum number of resin molds to make the necessary conversion for the reworked version of said rhino-based model.

- Most of your playerbase can use the kits in their CSM and SM 40k armies allowing cross-shopping as the rules are already out there.  Heck, just release some datasheets for breachers and you are good to go.

- You still have to pay FW to get the legion-specific goodies that really add flavor to 30k.

- They would make TRUCKLOADS of cash.

 

What does the player/hobby base get?

- A reasonable entry point into GW's high dollar premier product, with a balanced choice offered to players between each boxset in terms of content, variation, and playability.

- A gateway for new players into the 30k hobby, with a complete starter army of HQ + 1 Elite + 2 troops + either a DT or 1 HS.

- A reason for existing players to spend more money on more kits due to the reduced marginal cost of adding to their existing collection.

- 2 boxsets easily available at their LGS to promote GW's "high-roller" premium product, in place of the OOP BaC and BoP boxsets that don't require extra content for the board games.  Just a box with plastic, some get you by rules, and some transfer sheets.

 

So what is the problem here?

- Its far too reasonable to exist.

- Its not Primaris

- People will be like "Ugh, yet more marine stuff again" (I agree, Eldar stuff desperately needs new kits lol)

- But seriously, its not Primaris XYZ, because it is actively supporting the alternative oldmarines to their posterboy in 8th and now 9th edition.

 

Extra-mega bonus points if:

Plastic Sicaran Battle-tank for like $100 or something

3 Scimitar Jetbikes in plastic for around $60 ala the custodes jetbikes

 

 

 

TLDR: Give us 2 new boxsets with a variety of new units and existing 30k plastics and we would fork over our wallets ASAP.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Armillion

[WrathOfTheLion]

New assault marines would be big for me.

 

I've built and painted one squad of resin ones, and I really just can't be bothered to do more than that. The MK IV old resin jump packs get all ratty and it takes so much modeling time just to get them up and running.

[sarabando]

mk4 assault squad would never be in stock, the 40k Blood Angel players would see to that XD

[Spagunk]

I really wish mk2 would make a reappearance. So many plans in my mind for mk2 and no where to get a load of them.

 

I do like the idea of mk4 assault squad. If they had only done 50% running/walking legs in the mk4 plastic, it would be a non-issue. 

I think, if anything, a plastic Deimos kit is 100% necessary. First of all, it would mesh with the current HH plastic boxes (10 marines + 1 transport). With the move to primaris, it's only a matter of time before the rhino just fails/retires. Let's hand the rhino recut over to HH who would actually use "old marines" and just include a separate 40k front/side doors ala Sisters Exorcist kit. They can then decide if they want to invest in recut predators/rhino based chassis later at whatever pace they need. It would suck for GW to have to print 2 rhino plastic kits in the short term but honestly they should have made way more off the old mold by now. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Spagunk

[Armillion]

I suspect that anyone hoping for MkII plastic ever may be disappointed, and not from a business case but rather a technical issue.

 

The problem with a potential plastic MkII set is mainly in the limbs in that the segmented plates translate poorly to injection molding.  I tried to sketch this up below.  The overlapping plates create undercuts (aka negative draft) relative to the two halves of the steel mold if the legs are positioned in any orientation except standing pretty much straight up and down.  If the legs were molded in the illustrated position the result would look pretty weird with filled-in undercuts due to the overlapping plate drafting back.  This could be bypassed by making the thighs separate from the shins and feet but then you have 3-piece legs which I can't think of any other infantry kit that does this because it increases the number of cavities, plastic injection gates to those cavities, and die size.  Alternatively, you could lay out all of the legs on their sides and put the parting line down the front and back of the legs, but this would push you to have to do a separate lower torso/groin because of the undercuts around the hip joints.  It could be done but it would be very technically challenging from a injection design perspective.

 

 

MkIII bypasses this by having the flat front plates which hides the issue by eliminating many points of negative draft while positioning the limb into a potential molding position.

 

The resin MkII got around it by the fact that the mold is flexible, enabling undercuts.

 

I think the best option would be to expand the MkIII/MkIV plastic range, retire much of the basic MkIII/MkIV resin range, and reissue/reintroduce the full MkII resin range in its place for those who need it (DA, WS, BA, WE, RG, in particular)