Thoughts on the 9th ed Crusade rules

[ThePenitentOne]

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

 

For my campaign, some armies will start with a roster that is larger than they can field, but others will start with only the models they bring to the first game and requisition everything from there. The Imperial Guard and the Sisters of Battle are VERY well established on the planet of Orison's Wake, whereas the cults have to build themselves up from nothing.

 

Playing the large roster with a small supply limit is a mixed blessing; on one hand, you'll be able to bring whatever is best to get the job done because you have a lot to choose from, but on the other hand, large chunks of your army sit out and don't earn xp, while units in a small roster crusade fight every battle and level up like stink. Interesting contrast.

[TPS]

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

[RandyB]

 

 

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

[Noserenda]

 

 

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

 

They cost twice as much as their peers thanks to their extensive upgrades list, on the other hand that may well let you go wild customising the unit? 

[TPS]

 

 

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

 

My issue is that I end up constrained by equipment choices. I'm forced to stack as much special equipment as possible on the squad to make the 9 PL investment actually worth it (we may now discuss how reasonable it is to equip the entire squad with heavy thunder hammers), as the same 9 PL buys me 9 Intercessors (edit: or 5 Intercessors and 4 Reivers, because why not).

Edited July 15, 2020 by TPS

[RandyB]

 

 

 

 

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

My issue is that I end up constrained by equipment choices. I'm forced to stack as much special equipment as possible on the squad to make the 9 PL investment actually worth it (we may now discuss how reasonable it is to equip the entire squad with heavy thunder hammers), as the same 9 PL buys me 9 Intercessors (edit: or 5 Intercessors and 4 Reivers, because why not).

Definitely a "boys vs. toys" question. Try each and see how they work on the tabletop?

[TPS]

 

 

 

 

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

My issue is that I end up constrained by equipment choices. I'm forced to stack as much special equipment as possible on the squad to make the 9 PL investment actually worth it (we may now discuss how reasonable it is to equip the entire squad with heavy thunder hammers), as the same 9 PL buys me 9 Intercessors (edit: or 5 Intercessors and 4 Reivers, because why not).

Definitely a "boys vs. toys" question. Try each and see how they work on the tabletop?

 

 

My FLGS did an escalation campaign with PL in early 8th. The first two games showed clearly that I couldn't get the 'toys' approach to work. Was expecting the upcoming CA to also run a rebalancing on PL, but apparently, no luck.

[Brother Dallo]

Something I think my gaming group is going to try is an exchange rate where one Power is worth twenty points.

 

That gives you a starting roster of 1000 points, which seems about right.

 

Dallo

[RandyB]

 

Definitely a "boys vs. toys" question. Try each and see how they work on the tabletop?

 

My FLGS did an escalation campaign with PL in early 8th. The first two games showed clearly that I couldn't get the 'toys' approach to work. Was expecting the upcoming CA to also run a rebalancing on PL, but apparently, no luck.

Experience always beats theory.

[Doctor Perils]

 

 

 

 

They are free in the sense that it doesn't cost you extra to buy them, but PL is determined by the average points of min upgrades and max upgrades divided by 20, meaning that your PL cost factors in unit upgrades at the base cost.

This unfortunately makes Deathwatch Veterans pretty much unplayable in Crusade, as a 5-man squad of those 1 hitpoints marines costs a whopping 9 PL. Which makes me extremely sad, as they're the most fun to play unit in the entire codex.

Are you following the series of articles on WarCom that's tracing an Adepta Sororitas force through the first few battles of a Crusade?

 

Based on that series, I see no reason why Deathwatch Veterans are impractical. I certainly plan to use them.

My issue is that I end up constrained by equipment choices. I'm forced to stack as much special equipment as possible on the squad to make the 9 PL investment actually worth it (we may now discuss how reasonable it is to equip the entire squad with heavy thunder hammers), as the same 9 PL buys me 9 Intercessors (edit: or 5 Intercessors and 4 Reivers, because why not).

What may help is to change your point of view: PL and Crusade are aimed at those who play to have fun as opposed to those who play to win. Will the Veterans be marginally less effective technically? Perhaps, but if you're having fun simply fielding them then you're already achieving your goal.

[MegaVolt87]

Crusade will only be as good as the strength of the narrative behind it. If you can't work all that out first and just throw down, I think you won't be having as much fun IMO. Even a crusade in the Indomnitus/ Vigilus setting using that existing lore would work if you aren't handcrafting a custom scenario D&D style.

[Doghouse]

I think the important part to remember is that this is just the jumping off point and as time goes on, like most GW stuff, it'll evolve. Maybe if the demand is great enough we'll see a points version further down the line.

[Vermintide]

Playing small scale <500 points Crusade games sounds like exactly the kind of game I have sometimes wished there was. Bigger and less restrictive than Kill Team, but smaller than full on 40K.

 

My feeling is that there are a lot of optional rules for terrain etc (and bigger stuff like Cities of Death) that a lot of people, myself included, simply don't bother with when you're playing a full scale 40k game. Playing on a smaller board with fewer units to keep track of will make it easier to include the more detailed aspects, and the campaign element allows those games to feel like they have more meaning.

[smileyjim]

A worry that crossed my mind reading the articles on crusade is people getting perfect rolls for their upgrades. It's really an honesty system, I just wonder how many peyote throw a 1 on a unit that's been killed and just reroll to avoid that unit getting nerfed.

Or they just happen to roll the min/max to kit out their squads and characters.

Many people won't do this but some will and I winner how much it can snowball an army into being unfair.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm going to be GMing my group's Crusade campaign, I was already looking at doing a campaign of some sort but the old 8th Framework left a lot to be desired, especially as there wasn't really a way to make your guys level up and be your own etc. I read through the leaked rules, the articles GW have put out and the article that GoonHammer did and created a run down of how Crusade works on the surface level. It's actually quite simple to get your head around it's just a LOT of admin, which I don't think there was a way around it for GW if they were going to create something that had longevity. One of the group has even set himself to task and is creating an automated Google sheet so that we can just put in XP and any other new benefits/drawbacks and away we go.

 

Having read through the previews I have decided on a couple extra rules: Players will always roll for Battlescars and Battlehonours etc and (preferably) No named characters

I would prefer there to be no named characters but I am aware that some of my players are very attached to named characters and I don't have a problem with that, if they can find a narrative for a named character that makes sense lore wise I'm all for it. Players always rolling for battlescars etc is more of a personal preference, I understand there are fluffy choices but there's also extremely powerful choices. I prefer for a player to roll for a trait think its very meh and then have it come up clutch in a game than have something that's incredibly powerful that come sup every game.

 

I will also be keeping an eye on the " Mark for greatness" XP boost. 3 XP is a lot so I may restrict this to be able to give this to a unit once. I'll have to see as we play.

[Bung]

A worry that crossed my mind reading the articles on crusade is people getting perfect rolls for their upgrades. It's really an honesty system, I just wonder how many peyote throw a 1 on a unit that's been killed and just reroll to avoid that unit getting nerfed.

Or they just happen to roll the min/max to kit out their squads and characters.

Many people won't do this but some will and I winner how much it can snowball an army into being unfair.

We will probably do a campaign with that crusade rules and that thought never crossed my mind.

But you could do the rolls together after the game. We usually hang out a bit talking etc. so that shouldnt be a problem.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

A worry that crossed my mind reading the articles on crusade is people getting perfect rolls for their upgrades. It's really an honesty system, I just wonder how many peyote throw a 1 on a unit that's been killed and just reroll to avoid that unit getting nerfed.

Or they just happen to roll the min/max to kit out their squads and characters.

Many people won't do this but some will and I winner how much it can snowball an army into being unfair.

We will probably do a campaign with that crusade rules and that thought never crossed my mind.

But you could do the rolls together after the game. We usually hang out a bit talking etc. so that shouldnt be a problem.

 

I think a lot of this comes down to trust too, if you're playing with a large group at a FLGS I can see why you're worried about people not being honest there's always "that" guy.

My group is my mates that come to my house to play, I think I'm very fortunate to have a lot of other people that think the same way I do about honouring what you roll etc.

[SilverShire]

I played in a home-brew in early 8th with a group of friends from uni that had a similar level up system and I actually found that rolling for post battle honours/dishonours was really fun when you did it with your friends! You get to learn the story of each others armies and makes little moments in the battle a lot more cinematic and enjoyable. So I have faith that 99% of people won't abuse the system and will play fairly for the story of their army!

[Vermintide]

Sounds like a similar matter of principle to rolling a character in DnD. Nothing to stop people making up the numbers, and saying they just so happened to roll min/max when they show up for the game. People who enjoy the roleplay aspects aren't gonna pull that kinda cheese, because they know that defeats the whole purpose of the system.

 

The ones that do will become apparent as That Guy pretty quickly, and it wouldn't be a concern if you're playing with mates. Where we will have a problem is that Warhammer, especially PUGs at your local store, tend much more towards a WAAC That Guy mentality in the first place. The newer generation of players will misunderstand that this Crusade thing is a narrative framework, not an e-sports ladder ranking. See also: complaints about using power level...

[Lexington]

A GM seems like a good idea for Crusade in general, tho I understand that the “one man campaign” angle is some of the system’s appeal.

[Bung]

 

 

 

A worry that crossed my mind reading the articles on crusade is people getting perfect rolls for their upgrades. It's really an honesty system, I just wonder how many peyote throw a 1 on a unit that's been killed and just reroll to avoid that unit getting nerfed.

Or they just happen to roll the min/max to kit out their squads and characters.

Many people won't do this but some will and I winner how much it can snowball an army into being unfair.

We will probably do a campaign with that crusade rules and that thought never crossed my mind.

But you could do the rolls together after the game. We usually hang out a bit talking etc. so that shouldnt be a problem.

I think a lot of this comes down to trust too, if you're playing with a large group at a FLGS I can see why you're worried about people not being honest there's always "that" guy.

My group is my mates that come to my house to play, I think I'm very fortunate to have a lot of other people that think the same way I do about honouring what you roll etc.

My local Nerdstore tends to run campaigns and leagues.

It works cause to take part you have to buy the stuff in his store but he will dedicated 2 days a week only for that campaign as a GM.

So i would expect he will insist to do the rolls unser his supervision, as with his other campaigns.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

As others have said, cheating the system is like cheating yourself. The fun of rolling to determine what bonuses or drawbacks a unit gains or suffers sounds like a lot of fun to me. That was half the reason I wet my pants when I first found out about WarCry, and was hoping that Killteam would get an upgrade like this at some point, and I hope it still does. I absolutely love this RPG element to the system. I’ve tried playing in campaigns in the past, but they’ve always kind of died before they really took off because of the logistics involved. The beauty of the narrative being tied to the players individual army or armies is that if you can’t find a player one week, it doesn’t matter because the story takes off when you start playing again, so players don’t rely on each other or a GM. As for PL being the currency used to build an army rather than points you’re hurting your fun and the fun of others by min maxing units and options. If you feel compelled to play a finely balanced game with granularity, then clearly you’re not the target demographic of Crusade, and you’d probably fell more at home playing Tournament/Competetive Play. If you want to play a campaign with points with your mates, then you could easily adapt the Crusade system, and even look back at previous editions for inspiration too. It’s all good as long as you’re all on the same page. As for me, Crusade has everything I want already baked in.

[Disruptor_fe404]

A worry that crossed my mind reading the articles on crusade is people getting perfect rolls for their upgrades. It's really an honesty system, I just wonder how many peyote throw a 1 on a unit that's been killed and just reroll to avoid that unit getting nerfed.

Or they just happen to roll the min/max to kit out their squads and characters.

Many people won't do this but some will and I winner how much it can snowball an army into being unfair.

 

Personally, I'm getting around this by just letting them pick their battle honours. Battle scars might still go random, but I'm genuinely not expecting many battle scars to stay on, given that 1 RP is pretty easy to come by.

[ThePenitentOne]

You only get 4 Battle Honours, and I don't think you can pay RP to swap them the way you can get rid of scars.

 

If you're uncomfortable just letting people pick BH, I'd suggest letting them roll two dice and pick their preferred result. This way, there's still a sense of fickle fate, and a reasonable expectation that players may not always get exactly what they want, while still allowing a player to make choices that are consistent with their idea of what that unit would want to become, or consistent with what the character actually experiences on the battlefield. If it's pure random, it isn't always going to match the story.  

[Ahrimanjjb]

Crusade seems like its going to be the go to in my FLGS from now on - just the fact they made the missions 'matched' is fantastic and means you should be able to play these games against any strangers and be confident it will be a good one.

 

 

Two tweaks that we'll be doing to it are:

 

- Crusade Roster is in Power, but games are in Points. So you won't have to note down the nitty gritty when creating the roster, but you'll draw from that a balanced list to use in a game.

 

 

- You can play any sized game, even with your 50 Power Roster.

 

This means its less of a slow grow league, and more RPGy. You can arrange a 2,000pts game with your opponent, and within your army 50 Power of it is your crusade force (while your opponent may have more if they started their crusade earlier).

 

Only those units from your Roster gain experience and battle honours ect, but you don't have to play the smaller game modes if you don't want to.