White Scar Balance in 9th

[Prot]

So we discussed the White Scars chapter tactic getting updated to essentially include all units getting to advance and shoot assault weapons like normal, and just not bikes.

 

My concern, and I found this really problematic in 8th edition, is finding balance.

 

You want to put a lot of eggs into getting to grips with the enemy quickly, and turning it up a notch in T3. I found a lot of opponents actually hit harder. Lots of Chaos Marine builds, Wolves, etc, etc... but now you can add Death Guard, and probably of most concern: Custodes.

 

So how do you find balance in that? I think lots of those opponents we can't run into. We have to widdle them down first, because if we don't we'll get chewed up pretty easily. A lot of our assaults come from mid tier troops, and they don't shoot well enough to take down hard targets. Yet we can't just walk up to a Telemon, or a blob of possessed, or a squad of Allarus Terminators, and just cross our fingers.

 

I'm just curious where you guys find balance in those tough match ups, without diluting your assault force too much?

[Johanhgg]

Strike, retreat and strike again :)

 

Im aiming for a slippery style of battle which not many armies can match. Death Guard and other armies are so slow and White scars are so fast.

 

I think Im going to rely on the fast aspect of the scars to quickly change flanks etc and attack isolated and overextended units with a thousand cuts while grabbing objectives.

 

It all sounds good in my head

[Prot]

Strike, retreat and strike again

 

Im aiming for a slippery style of battle which not many armies can match. Death Guard and other armies are so slow and White scars are so fast.

 

I think Im going to rely on the fast aspect of the scars to quickly change flanks etc and attack isolated and overextended units with a thousand cuts while grabbing objectives.

 

It all sounds good in my head

 

So what I mean by 'balance' against better assault armies is stuff like.... let's say you do a mutliassault against a clump of DG. Because that's how they will play against most opponents.

 

Then the special character makes you go last (even though you charged) an a 7" aura around him. Then...? I'm not sure what you do here. Not only that, but once the stoink grenades start flying, there will be a ton of mortal wounds happening. 

 

Hitting Custodes fast seems like it would play into them. 

 

Don't get me wrong I've been trying that method but against a superior assault, you have to be honest with the probable outcome. An Intercessor with a chainsword is probably going to come out on the losing end of a lot of those match ups. 

 

 If there are ways to circumvent that stuff, I'd love to hear how you're doing it. I'm definitely not above taking some solid advice in these matchups. For now all I keep coming up with is trying to create a more balanced list, and thin the herd out before getting in there.

 

Some of those uber characters (like the Death Guard guy with the nasty flamer and you always strike last) is something that must be taken care of. 

 

I know a lot of competitive Astartes armies took 3 squads of Eliminators in every list. I think GW got sick of seeing that and I see they've bumped them up... probably too much. 

 

I'm even looking at flyers I never used to. Redemptors... etc. (I don't mind flyers just that they can't help with the assault).

 

I love the enthusiasm though. Frankly it sounds good in my head too. :)

[FinalCookie]

I think bladeguard with support characters will help out by providing primaris a real dedicated heavy assault unit, but fundamentally, codex space Marines are a shooty army that can compete in the fight phase, not a dedicated assault army.

 

I think dreadnoughts of any variety are an absolute must, and anything that lives in the transport slot while packing firepower deserves serious consideration.

 

Long range shooting to whittle down units before dedicated assault units come out of reserves/transports in turn 3 is my gameplan for this personally. Shooting units that can saunter into the midfield are what I'm looking for, so something to go with the aforementioned dreadnoughts I think would help against hard to shift opponents like Death Guard.

[MegaVolt87]

The new primaris bikes are auto bolt ones or just bolt rifle? Thats my issue with the primaris in general as well Prot, the balance of dedicated assault units vs just shooting then just bullying the survivors that stick around with that primaris stat line which isn't bad for mass attacks in melee all things considered. I would be a happy camper if primaris had access to power axes. 

[Prot]

I think bladeguard with support characters will help out by providing primaris a real dedicated heavy assault unit, but fundamentally, codex space Marines are a shooty army that can compete in the fight phase, not a dedicated assault army.

 

I think dreadnoughts of any variety are an absolute must, and anything that lives in the transport slot while packing firepower deserves serious consideration.

 

Long range shooting to whittle down units before dedicated assault units come out of reserves/transports in turn 3 is my gameplan for this personally. Shooting units that can saunter into the midfield are what I'm looking for, so something to go with the aforementioned dreadnoughts I think would help against hard to shift opponents like Death Guard.

 

I am not sure on Bladeguard yet. I think they might end up too expensive for what they do? Plus the role is so limited it kind of plays into that... 'where does my shooting come from?' problem.

 

I don't know if you played a lot of 8th ed, but the thing I found about long range shooting is mine would often get picked on because it's extremely hard to focus down the other side of the battlefield and still keep an eye on those shooty units.

 

That's why I primarily did just what you mention: Dreadnoughts. The good news is the Redemptor is probably in a better spot than it used to be. The problem is I hate the idea of taking a Vanguard, and I can't see a way to fit dreads in.

 

My favourite shooty dread for the points is actually the Dual Las Contemptor. At least he can waddle in and shoot.... not bad for the points, but usually he gets popped early. With so limited elites, I'm honestly considering 2-3 squads of new Eradicators. But again no room for any dreads! 

 

I used to use the Invictor a lot, but it may end up cut from my list this edition. 

 

 

The new primaris bikes are auto bolt ones or just bolt rifle? Thats my issue with the primaris in general as well Prot, the balance of dedicated assault units vs just shooting then just bullying the survivors that stick around with that primaris stat line which isn't bad for mass attacks in melee all things considered. I would be a happy camper if primaris had access to power axes. 

 

They are just Bolt Rifle... which was the first thing I noticed. I'm not too hot on those Outriders. I think they look cool, but really do I need another base damage 1 unit rushing into CC with little else to do? I have said elsewhere I still value my old school bikes over the Outriders, because I would take:

 

Sarge with T.Hammer

Filler bikes (as big as possible)

1 MM Attack bike.

 

The unit isn't a bad cost, and can take on just about anything. This is the multi-flex unit I had that opponents had the most difficulty with. I'd zoom it up, get a 3++ invuln, shoot normal, and charge. It was an expensive combo but you only need to get it off once.

 

Can I afford to waste all that CP on an Outrided squad? (Also locked at 3 bikes!) 

 

Outriders appear to do exactly what all my troops do... just quicker. I will still take a squad because I love how they look, but they are quite limited in ability and too expensive to be a throwaway unit.

 

Believe it or not, I'm looking at the new Turret thingy... the dual shooting nature of it, but again it can't do anything else so I'm stuck.

 

I just know that as we have all agreed; marines are shooty. The Ultramarine lists I used to play would play like a giant moving wedge of shootiness, and then with specialized units (HQ's, etc) bonk my opponent on the head if they got too close after being reduced in number.

 

With White Scars I feel like I'm trying to do the opposite. (Which goes against the grain of 'successful' marine bulids.)

[RolandTHTG]

I'll admit that I don't have any experience with the 8th/9th SM codex, so I don't know if it will work with aurahammer and the smaller 9th tables, but the revised terrain rules gives me hope it's doable again.

The success I had previously in 5th-6th was by using my bike units's speed to get around the side of enemy units, shooting up the few units that can see me, and so force them to spread out trying to get to grips with me. Then, on turns 3&4, rapidly move/turboboost my army to a flank that the enemy has left vulnerable and smash the units there with mass waves of assault. 

I recall one game where I was actually assaulting from the other player's deployment zone into the midfield, because he had moved the whole army up into midfield but hadn't left a screen behind his fire support units. 

For 9th, I think something similar is doable.

Turns 1-2, use the terrain rules to screen your units from shooting, while concentrating firepower on units that you can target without reprisal.

Then turn 3-4 when the enemy army is spread out trying to get lines of sight on your units, use the speed of bikes or outflanking units to get through gaps between units and assault the support aura generators.

With the WS "charge after falling back" ability and the assault doctrine bonuses, I think using a charge into a secondary target turn 3, then fall back through enemy units to ping-pong over to your turn 4 target is a viable strategy. 

[FinalCookie]

 

I think bladeguard with support characters will help out by providing primaris a real dedicated heavy assault unit, but fundamentally, codex space Marines are a shooty army that can compete in the fight phase, not a dedicated assault army.

 

I think dreadnoughts of any variety are an absolute must, and anything that lives in the transport slot while packing firepower deserves serious consideration.

 

Long range shooting to whittle down units before dedicated assault units come out of reserves/transports in turn 3 is my gameplan for this personally. Shooting units that can saunter into the midfield are what I'm looking for, so something to go with the aforementioned dreadnoughts I think would help against hard to shift opponents like Death Guard.

 

I am not sure on Bladeguard yet. I think they might end up too expensive for what they do? Plus the role is so limited it kind of plays into that... 'where does my shooting come from?' problem.

 

I don't know if you played a lot of 8th ed, but the thing I found about long range shooting is mine would often get picked on because it's extremely hard to focus down the other side of the battlefield and still keep an eye on those shooty units.

 

That's why I primarily did just what you mention: Dreadnoughts. The good news is the Redemptor is probably in a better spot than it used to be. The problem is I hate the idea of taking a Vanguard, and I can't see a way to fit dreads in.

 

My favourite shooty dread for the points is actually the Dual Las Contemptor. At least he can waddle in and shoot.... not bad for the points, but usually he gets popped early. With so limited elites, I'm honestly considering 2-3 squads of new Eradicators. But again no room for any dreads! 

 

I used to use the Invictor a lot, but it may end up cut from my list this edition. 

 

 

The new primaris bikes are auto bolt ones or just bolt rifle? Thats my issue with the primaris in general as well Prot, the balance of dedicated assault units vs just shooting then just bullying the survivors that stick around with that primaris stat line which isn't bad for mass attacks in melee all things considered. I would be a happy camper if primaris had access to power axes. 

 

They are just Bolt Rifle... which was the first thing I noticed. I'm not too hot on those Outriders. I think they look cool, but really do I need another base damage 1 unit rushing into CC with little else to do? I have said elsewhere I still value my old school bikes over the Outriders, because I would take:

 

Sarge with T.Hammer

Filler bikes (as big as possible)

1 MM Attack bike.

 

The unit isn't a bad cost, and can take on just about anything. This is the multi-flex unit I had that opponents had the most difficulty with. I'd zoom it up, get a 3++ invuln, shoot normal, and charge. It was an expensive combo but you only need to get it off once.

 

Can I afford to waste all that CP on an Outrided squad? (Also locked at 3 bikes!) 

 

Outriders appear to do exactly what all my troops do... just quicker. I will still take a squad because I love how they look, but they are quite limited in ability and too expensive to be a throwaway unit.

 

Believe it or not, I'm looking at the new Turret thingy... the dual shooting nature of it, but again it can't do anything else so I'm stuck.

 

I just know that as we have all agreed; marines are shooty. The Ultramarine lists I used to play would play like a giant moving wedge of shootiness, and then with specialized units (HQ's, etc) bonk my opponent on the head if they got too close after being reduced in number.

 

With White Scars I feel like I'm trying to do the opposite. (Which goes against the grain of 'successful' marine bulids.)

 

 

The long range shooting problems are definitely real. In most of my games in 8th, it would be a real struggle to try and both protect a shooting castle and actually threaten the midboard. My Raptors are able to do it with no real issues, but that's because they mostly want to sit back and shoot anyways.

 

You also make a really good point about the utility of Firstborn Bikers VS the new Outriders. Stormbolters, thunderhammers, stormshields; these were the upgrades that turned bikes from a harrassing unit to a real bully, and I don't know if Outriders will ever get access to that stuff. Which is a real shame, because that seems like a very flavorful way to run Scars. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

So we discussed the White Scars chapter tactic getting updated to essentially include all units getting to advance and shoot assault weapons like normal, and just not bikes.

 

My concern, and I found this really problematic in 8th edition, is finding balance.

 

You want to put a lot of eggs into getting to grips with the enemy quickly, and turning it up a notch in T3. I found a lot of opponents actually hit harder. Lots of Chaos Marine builds, Wolves, etc, etc... but now you can add Death Guard, and probably of most concern: Custodes.

 

So how do you find balance in that? I think lots of those opponents we can't run into. We have to widdle them down first, because if we don't we'll get chewed up pretty easily. A lot of our assaults come from mid tier troops, and they don't shoot well enough to take down hard targets. Yet we can't just walk up to a Telemon, or a blob of possessed, or a squad of Allarus Terminators, and just cross our fingers.

 

I'm just curious where you guys find balance in those tough match ups, without diluting your assault force too much?

Posssessed blobs dont seem that scary atm.  They only really worked because you couldnt interact with it.   Just having a Judicar in your list should kill them completely.  

 

Allarus Terminators.  Having used them a few times with TTS I would say just run away.  Assuming your WS list is fast (it should be) just wait for them to deepstrike and move somewhere else.  They can only be in 1 place at a time. 

 

I'm not sure how to deal with a Telemon.  Assuming their version of Duty Eternal will get nerfed just like the marine version, they should be vulnerable to eradicators, smash captains, or just impulsors tagging them.    

[Prot]

"Run away".

 

Lol... that is funny, but might be the only solution for an 'assault' army that would be facing certain death in CC. 

 

I was just trying to give examples, but there are many more.. I just didn't want to type it all out. But rest assured I still believe I gotta get more shooting in the list.

 

And yea, the Outriders appear capped at the wargear they come with. What's worse is I believe (like Eradicators) they are stuck at 3 models per squad.

[Riddlesworth]

Recent convert to White Scars. Been using successor tactics since the codex came out and trying to run primaris only and seeing what fits. New edition and gut says scars.

 

So caveats: I run bolter fusilades and whirlwind of rage as chapter tactics and primaris only. As such, my go to strategy since release has been shooting a bucket of dice to chip wounds off tanks, snipe characters and clear screens for aggressors and invictors to charge in and finish off.

 

With the way 9th has played for me in the 2 (socially distant) games I've played so far, white scars ruleset playsinto this very well. The game is cagier, more likely to have a bunch of stuff left turn 3 if I play my cards right and I can use the scars assault doctrine as a finisher, rather than waiting for turn 3 to turn the army on.

 

So that means eliminators are still useful, even at 90 points. Bolter inceptors have value (even more if you use the actual chapter tactics), 5 man units of aggressors, incursors and intercessors. The bike chaplain and outriders we will see a fair bit. It's the first primaris smash captain equivalent though I feel a white scars chaplain is best off supporting the bikers with the reroll litanies rather than mantra of strength. Encircle eradicators are for point and click tank removal. Hell, I might even give the reivers a go as my finisher

[TheNewman]

Use the Master Chaplain upgrade to give him Mantra of Strength and Strike off the Head, watch your Outriders and Chainsword Bikers turn into blenders in melee.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

"Run away".

 

Lol... that is funny, but might be the only solution for an 'assault' army that would be facing certain death in CC. 

 

I was just trying to give examples, but there are many more.. I just didn't want to type it all out. But rest assured I still believe I gotta get more shooting in the list.

 

And yea, the Outriders appear capped at the wargear they come with. What's worse is I believe (like Eradicators) they are stuck at 3 models per squad.

Well Allarus terminators are slow and can only be in once place at a time.  Their shooting is good but not awe inspiring.  So just run away.  

 

WS can still fallback and charge and often shoot also.    

Use the Master Chaplain upgrade to give him Mantra of Strength and Strike off the Head, watch your Outriders and Chainsword Bikers turn into blenders in melee.

That aint gonna work.  Allarus terminators have a stratagem to ignore ap -1 and -2.  Outriders will just bounce off of them.  

[TheNewman]

Edit: Ok, backing up a minute to remember the context of the discussion here. Rerolling to-hit and to-wound is pretty significant even if it is just in melee, but yeah that isn't going to let Outriders or Chainsword Bikers chew through Allarus Terminators. A Biker Sergeant with a Master Crafted Thunder Hammer will sure make 'em flinch though, and those rerolls means every swing is likely to count. It's admittedly not ideal.

 

I stand by my original answer to the question, drowning them in Aggressor fire is a better answer.

 

Original response:

Force 'em to burn CP using it. The answer to an effective 2++ is to bury it in shots. Even termies start having trouble if you pump 200 rounds into them.

Edited July 16, 2020 by TheNewman

[Prot]

Burning CP is always a decent tactic, but I would suggest that White Scars burn them just as heavily... and Custodes use them too, however they inherently usually start with 3 more because of that awesome moment shackle from Trajann (I usually use it for a free 3 CP teleport).

 

That said it's a good overall tactic to draw CP out of your opponent, but unit wise I'm a bit worried.

 

Some of the games I've played, and some I've just seen... the White Scars / Marine player goes too far into assault building and it just leaves too much of a vulnerability. 

 

Aggressors are good but I actually think Eradicators are just as important. I keep saying it but that Elite Category is super over crowded, and it all went up a lot (as a base percentage) over many other units in the army. I don't have the CP to Encirclement them either.

 

I keep bringing a Repulsor back into my lists.... just because it's a cheap encirclement with a unit. (up to 5 aggressors).

[Lemondish]

So one of the cooler looking units that I had always hoped would shine with Scars was the 10 man assault terminator squad with lightning claws. As a unit that can land where you need them in assault doctrine, perhaps even alongside the relic banner terminator, they feel like such a powerful tool. I thought they would be pretty viable in 8th at 330 points, but centurions ended up being better.

 

But now...with everything else jumping in points while these guys stay even, I think I might just go and buy a set to build some up. While 330 might be expensive, it doesn't feel "whole army expensive".

[TheNewman]

I bought a box of the Cataphracii termies just because I thought that build looked cool. They haven't actually made it to the table armed like that though. Maybe in 9th, although the twin claw option is still worse than a single Power Fist on every target even with them at the same point cost. Edited July 20, 2020 by TheNewman

[Prot]

It's funny we are discussing old school Catapharctii. I have a 5 man squad I built a long time ago. They are split into dual claws and 3 fists/Stormbolters.

 

Now I'm thinkin Claws don't look so bad in T3 with 2 damage on the charge, and an extra AP, re rolling to wound. Might be worth it...! 

[Lemondish]

I bought a box of the Cataphracii termies just because I thought that build looked cool. They haven't actually made it to the table armed like that though. Maybe in 9th, although the twin claw option is still worse than a single Power Fist on every target even with them at the same point cost.

Hmm, even with the banner and Khan involved? Could have sworn in 8th it was better because of the extra attacks and wound rerolls...

 

A pity. Unit would look far cooler than fists. Guess it's also 30 points more expensive since the bolters get involved too.

[TheNewman]

Extra attacks and rerolls help the Power Fist more than they help the Claws. I didn't do the math on the WS super-doctine though, D1 -> D2 is a lot bigger a boost than Dd3 -> Dd3+1.

 

Did the math better; Against multi-wound targets D2 flips it in favor of the claws against T3 and T9, and gets within 0.03 average damage/attacker on T5-7. T4 and T8 (aka the important ones) still heavily favor the fist.

 

The Claws win out on any single-wound target that matters.

Edited July 20, 2020 by TheNewman

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Edit: Ok, backing up a minute to remember the context of the discussion here. Rerolling to-hit and to-wound is pretty significant even if it is just in melee, but yeah that isn't going to let Outriders or Chainsword Bikers chew through Allarus Terminators. A Biker Sergeant with a Master Crafted Thunder Hammer will sure make 'em flinch though, and those rerolls means every swing is likely to count. It's admittedly not ideal.

 

I stand by my original answer to the question, drowning them in Aggressor fire is a better answer.

 

Original response:

Force 'em to burn CP using it. The answer to an effective 2++ is to bury it in shots. Even termies start having trouble if you pump 200 rounds into them.

I would be careful about relying on reroll deathstars vs custodes.  They have a 2cp strat that prevent rerolls against one of their units.  You could easily end up in a horrible spot with piss poor damage output.

[TheNewman]

T5, 2++ is going to be a bad time no matter what you point at it, the only thing I can think of that makes a reliable dent in that unit is Salamander Flamestorm Aggressors and you're burning at least 3 CPs (probably 4) to do it. Edited July 20, 2020 by TheNewman

[Lemondish]

T5, 2++ is going to be a bad time no matter what you point at it, the only thing I can think of that makes a reliable dent in that unit is Salamander Flamestorm Aggressors and you're burning at least 3 CPs (probably 4) to do it.

Pray tell, what unit is T5 2++?

[TheNewman]

Allarus terminators can ignore Ap1 and Ap2 with a strat. It's not actually 2++, but for a lot of units it might as well be.

[durdle-durdle]

So I played a game a couple days ago.  I'll preface with that it was my first time playing white scars.  I wanted to try a more assault-oriented list with the obscuring terrain added into this edition. 

My list, roughly:

a regular primaris captain

a phobos librarian

one unit of 5 stalker intercessors

one unit of 8 bolt rifle intercessors

One unit of 10 auto bolt rifle intercessors.

one unit of 3 bolter aggressors

one unit of 5 reivers with grav chutes

one unit of 6 bolt inceptors in reserves

one unit of 3 plasma inceptors in reserves

a lascannon/lastalon repulsor (captain, librarian, and 8 bolt rifle intercessors; encircled)

a heavy laser destroyer repulsor executioner (3 agressors in here)

 

The game was against a death guard list, roughly:

typhus

the sorcerer lord (i don't remember the name)

mortarion

2 units of ~20 poxwalkers

2 small units of death guard in rhinos

2 blight haulers.

 

I'll be honest, I played extremely poorly.  I focused way too much on Morty and not enough on the objectives.

 

The take aways:

-the smaller board doesn't seem like it would make much difference, but the extra board space cut off made it extremely hard to place anything in a good place from reserves.  The poxwalkers and typhus blocked off a huge section of his side of the board, the rhinos moved up and blocked off most of the sides.

-a repulsor + a repulsor executioner is way too much.  A bad decision on my part, but they don't put out like 600 points of damage.

-with the way the obscuring terrain works, I don't think gun lines will work really UNLESS you have a ton of indirect fire like IG basalisks/wyverns.  I don't really think going ham on all aggressive assault works either.  I think the best way to run it is in mobile gun groups with some melee backup (which will be much easier when the outriders, bike chaplains, buggies, and other stuff comes out). 

-They were already good before, but auto bolt rifles with a thunder hammer (or whatever special melee weapon) sgt are GREAT since there's not a negative to advancing them.