White Scar Balance in 9th

[Prot]

durdle,

 

It's funny how you're observing many of the exact things I did in my first game.

 

In fact I'm still struggling with the use of Repulsor (I don't use the executioner just because of limited transport). 

 

I've faced Astra numerous times and yes, all their indirect makes them extremely efficient even with new terrain rules... anyone downplaying the power of indirect in 9th hasn't faced it. 

 

- What you're saying about your encirclement issues: I've been saying this over and over... deep strike, and outflanking is -extremely- difficult!! With my Ultra's... drop pods barely fit. I've spent 3 turns trying to fit in my reserves as white Scars.

 

- I stopped Encircling my Repulsor with Eradicators: Two problems 1. you are stuck losing it on T1. It's such a big model, I haven't had a single game yet out of probably 5 with the Repulsor where I don't lose it the turn it comes in. 

 

- Second problem: Not only is it extremely risky to encircle a numerous foe, and put a repulsor in reserves, you can't reroll any dice involved in the explosion! I really dislike this, as a marine player losing a 3 wound model out of a dead transport seems excessive. (I really hoped GW would only make 'exploding' vehicles do damage to passengers.)

 

- You are finding the balance issues I was. There's such an emphasis on board control, and being a super shooty marine army won't work. Being all out assault doesn't either. 

 

 I do like your list other than the Repulsors. (I want to yank my own repulsors personally.)

[Lemondish]

So the Repulsor of either variant isn't doing well for you guys? That's super disappointing. It's been a dud for my IF since reserving it removes much of its value with the super doctrine, but I figured lightning debarkation would at least rate highly enough to really give it space to shine with scars. Terrain hasn't helped it survive being blown away on the first turn?

 

Guess it'll be back to Ultras for me with it :(

Edited July 21, 2020 by Lemondish

[Armament81]

Prot I agree with the deep-strike / encircle issues.  Which is why I have been favoring more scout deploy and fast moving answers.

 

A couple of the things I have observed that seem good (But may not be, a lot of my meta is still lagging on the idea of how important board control is in 9th) :

- Tactical War Suits - I mean they were already good, but hot damn being able to be midfield out of LoS somewhere is so nice, and even if you only put them a couple inches out of deployment zone, they are just so versatile in getting early pressure, but can also do other duties like capture and holding while a line of bikes Jams up the opponent.
 

- 3 speeder unit - I never in 8th bothered to try this, but in 9th, have a 3 vehicle unit of land speeders to make a 20" move with the option of +d6 and firing still with a strat is super useful.  They can move and shoot now, fire in combat.  I have done everything from just having Heavy Bolters to going whole hog with MM and Assault Cannons at 90 a model and they never disappoint.  I think part of it is because they are never perceived as the main threat, so they don't tend to have a huge amount focused on them.  They can also be targeted with skilled rider which is nice.
 

- Normal Bikes - You obviously already have seen them still holding value, I just wanted to bring them up again because they are such a great tool for us.  Not going to go into detail with them, more a tactic I have used and liked.  I proxied the new bikes and the bike chappy one game, and the idea was use the 8 man bike unit to jam my opponents front line turn 1, along with the chappy and a bike captain.  I reserved the Outriders (And gave the sgt a master crafted chain sword) and brought them in on turn 3.  Lots more room at that point for only a 3 man unit to ride in with.  Mean while the rest of my army all just took the board.  My opponent was awe struck at how fast I had taken everything.  Not sure if that will continue to work over time as people get used to how fast we are.  But I sure as hell will keep doing it until it stops working, lol.

- Xiphons - I still love these things, and they didn't change in points!  Still 220!  I know you said your not a fan of flyers, but I think 1 or 2 are still just as good as indirect fire at this point, since they can fly to a place that they can see hiding units easily.  Storm Talons actually got cheaper too, so also a good option now.

The list that I tried proxying the outriders is such:
 

White Scar List  (Battalion)

 

HQ - Captain on Bike w/ Fist and SS 120pts

HQ - Chaplain on Bike 130pts

HQ - Librarian w/ Jetpack, FStaff, Bolter 115pts

 

Troop - 5 Intercessors with Assault bolters 100pts

Troop - 5 Intercessors with Assault bolters 100pts

Troop - 5 Intercessors with Assault bolters 100pts

 

Elite - Invictor Tactical War Suit 165pts

Elite - Invictor Tactical War Suit 165pts

 

Fast - 8 Bikes, 3 Melta / Combi Melta, 5 Chainswords 230pts

Fast - 3 Outriders 135pts

Fast - 4 Plasma Inceptors 200pts

 

Flyer - Xiphon 220pts

Flyer - Xiphon 220pts

Total: 2000pts

Edited July 21, 2020 by Armament81

[Prot]

So the Repulsor of either variant isn't doing well for you guys? That's super disappointing. It's been a dud for my IF since reserving it removes much of its value with the super doctrine, but I figured lightning debarkation would at least rate highly enough to really give it space to shine with scars. Terrain hasn't helped it survive being blown away on the first turn?

 

Guess it'll be back to Ultras for me with it

 

Just me speaking here, but I don't see using Repulsors in any sort of serious game with any of my marine armies. I just don't like how high their points are going for 9th vs. the output.  That's just me.

 

Prot I agree with the deep-strike / encircle issues.  Which is why I have been favoring more scout deploy and fast moving answers.

 

A couple of the things I have observed that seem good (But may not be, a lot of my meta is still lagging on the idea of how important board control is in 9th) :

- Tactical War Suits - I mean they were already good, but hot damn being able to be midfield out of LoS somewhere is so nice, and even if you only put them a couple inches out of deployment zone, they are just so versatile in getting early pressure, but can also do other duties like capture and holding while a line of bikes Jams up the opponent.

 

- 3 speeder unit - I never in 8th bothered to try this, but in 9th, have a 3 vehicle unit of land speeders to make a 20" move with the option of +d6 and firing still with a strat is super useful.  They can move and shoot now, fire in combat.  I have done everything from just having Heavy Bolters to going whole hog with MM and Assault Cannons at 90 a model and they never disappoint.  I think part of it is because they are never perceived as the main threat, so they don't tend to have a huge amount focused on them.  They can also be targeted with skilled rider which is nice.

 

- Normal Bikes - You obviously already have seen them still holding value, I just wanted to bring them up again because they are such a great tool for us.  Not going to go into detail with them, more a tactic I have used and liked.  I proxied the new bikes and the bike chappy one game, and the idea was use the 8 man bike unit to jam my opponents front line turn 1, along with the chappy and a bike captain.  I reserved the Outriders (And gave the sgt a master crafted chain sword) and brought them in on turn 3.  Lots more room at that point for only a 3 man unit to ride in with.  Mean while the rest of my army all just took the board.  My opponent was awe struck at how fast I had taken everything.  Not sure if that will continue to work over time as people get used to how fast we are.  But I sure as hell will keep doing it until it stops working, lol.

 

- Xiphons - I still love these things, and they didn't change in points!  Still 220!  I know you said your not a fan of flyers, but I think 1 or 2 are still just as good as indirect fire at this point, since they can fly to a place that they can see hiding units easily.  Storm Talons actually got cheaper too, so also a good option now.

 

 

 

I can see Xiphons having use. I probably won't get into them. I really prefer blocking people out in 9th and using the real estate with bodies as much as possible. Great unit to take on tanks though which I find a bit tough.

 

The Speeders I have tried in a few games. I really like the Typhoon speeder. It's a sleeper for sure, and I'm dying to see what the new (teaser image) Primaris speeder does!

[Lemondish]

Ugh, with the Repulsor seeming to be a dud from many perspectives, I'm completely deflated in my current project.

 

Which naturally means a new project lol

[durdle-durdle]

So the Repulsor of either variant isn't doing well for you guys? That's super disappointing. It's been a dud for my IF since reserving it removes much of its value with the super doctrine, but I figured lightning debarkation would at least rate highly enough to really give it space to shine with scars. Terrain hasn't helped it survive being blown away on the first turn?

 

Guess it'll be back to Ultras for me with it

The terrain helps the repulsors, definitely.  The problem is that their weapon output is good but not fantastic.  Also, you want to run it towards enemies to get your troops you're hauling inside in place.  Not to mention the thing is a B I G  C H O N K, so it's super hard to hide.  I just feel like a repulsor doesn't do ~300 points of shooting, transporting, or both.  

[Lemondish]

 

So the Repulsor of either variant isn't doing well for you guys? That's super disappointing. It's been a dud for my IF since reserving it removes much of its value with the super doctrine, but I figured lightning debarkation would at least rate highly enough to really give it space to shine with scars. Terrain hasn't helped it survive being blown away on the first turn?

 

Guess it'll be back to Ultras for me with it

The terrain helps the repulsors, definitely.  The problem is that their weapon output is good but not fantastic.  Also, you want to run it towards enemies to get your troops you're hauling inside in place.  Not to mention the thing is a B I G  C H O N K, so it's super hard to hide.  I just feel like a repulsor doesn't do ~300 points of shooting, transporting, or both.  

 

 

Yeah, I just really like the model and enjoy the concept of big guns on big vehicles, but if it's such a huge impact to my Scars efficiency then I'll have to find my AT somewhere else. Hate the look of the Eradicators and they're likely to get hit with a massive nerfhammer once everybody abuses the crap out of them, so that leaves me with what...Hellblasters? Inceptors? Seems more like Marines are done for me until they come up with some kind of balancing that helps vehicles like the Repulsor more. 

 

I won't be buying any contemptor mortis dreadnoughts until I see what happens with FW units, but given the Contemptor is by far the worst looking dread out of any of them, I've basically painted myself in the corner of form over function, which is tragic lol

Edited July 21, 2020 by Lemondish

[Armament81]

 

 

So the Repulsor of either variant isn't doing well for you guys? That's super disappointing. It's been a dud for my IF since reserving it removes much of its value with the super doctrine, but I figured lightning debarkation would at least rate highly enough to really give it space to shine with scars. Terrain hasn't helped it survive being blown away on the first turn?

 

Guess it'll be back to Ultras for me with it

The terrain helps the repulsors, definitely.  The problem is that their weapon output is good but not fantastic.  Also, you want to run it towards enemies to get your troops you're hauling inside in place.  Not to mention the thing is a B I G  C H O N K, so it's super hard to hide.  I just feel like a repulsor doesn't do ~300 points of shooting, transporting, or both.  

 

 

Yeah, I just really like the model and enjoy the concept of big guns on big vehicles, but if it's such a huge impact to my Scars efficiency then I'll have to find my AT somewhere else. Hate the look of the Eradicators and they're likely to get hit with a massive nerfhammer once everybody abuses the crap out of them, so that leaves me with what...Hellblasters? Inceptors? Seems more like Marines are done for me until they come up with some kind of balancing that helps vehicles like the Repulsor more. 

 

I won't be buying any contemptor mortis dreadnoughts until I see what happens with FW units, but given the Contemptor is by far the worst looking dread out of any of them, I've basically painted myself in the corner of form over function, which is tragic lol

 

 

You can get 2 Predators now for the price of one loaded out Executioner.  Easier to hide, more combined wounds, and now that they can move and shoot with out issue, I think they have really found themselves seeing play again.

 

3 Man attack bike squads with MM can be a more mobile alternative to the Eradicators too.  And super in theme for WS.

[Armament81]

 

I can see Xiphons having use. I probably won't get into them. I really prefer blocking people out in 9th and using the real estate with bodies as much as possible. Great unit to take on tanks though which I find a bit tough.

 

The Speeders I have tried in a few games. I really like the Typhoon speeder. It's a sleeper for sure, and I'm dying to see what the new (teaser image) Primaris speeder does!

 

 

Me too!  Hopefully they will come out with the ATV, Techmarine and Chappy on bike.  I hope that the Chappy on Bike is also a hint of other Primaris characters getting the bike option.  I miss my now legends characters on bikes. :(

[Prot]

Actually the Pred annihilator config isn't a bad idea at all for White Scars. Now it's more mobile, and really having something that can hang back is good for secondaries as well as primaries. Interesting choice.

 

I am not a huge fan of the ATV model but if it ends up able to join a Primaris Bike unit (ala Attack bike and bikers) then it becomes far more valuable to my typical lists.

[Armament81]

Yea definitely, my worry is the cost.  But if it follows the bike -> primaris bike trend, then it should have 8 wounds which is a huge sink of fire to bring down before killing normal bikers.

[Prot]

Hmm, that makes me wonder about those speeders I’m using again. No one like shooting them because they feel the pressure of the frontline. Certainly not as durable as predators, but presumably cheaper, and faster. 
 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Hmm, that makes me wonder about those speeders I’m using again. No one like shooting them because they feel the pressure of the frontline. Certainly not as durable as predators, but presumably cheaper, and faster. 

 

Are they typhoon missile speeders?  I was thinking about getting some of those.  Thematic and they look cool.

[Prot]

 

Hmm, that makes me wonder about those speeders I’m using again. No one like shooting them because they feel the pressure of the frontline. Certainly not as durable as predators, but presumably cheaper, and faster. 

 

Are they typhoon missile speeders?  I was thinking about getting some of those.  Thematic and they look cool.

 

 

Yes that's what I'm using.

 

What I actually keep thinking about in my games with them is they only get targeted late game because there's so much 'stuff' charging down the field. I am worried they are kind of flimsy, and not as surivable as parking a Predator on your backline, but they are cheaper, hit pretty hard, and have the ability to jump over to another Objective, and either take it or contest it, is a pretty good feature.

 

I just keep waiting to see that "Primaris" Speeder come out. Truthfully I think it may turn out too cost prohibitive and not really have any more killing power, or movement than our first born speeders.

[Armament81]

Pretty good chance too that it will have enough wounds to degrade.

[Prot]

Yea, that's another concern as well. Hopefully they stay under 10 wounds. :)

[WGXH]

I had a test game for my White Scars at an estimated 2k against a friend's Salamanders. I admit that we may have taken some mild liberties with rules (i.e unit sizes of 3-6 for new stuff, and the Primaris Chaplain on Bike to have the devastating charge rule, but otherwise equivalent to the Primaris Chaplain with the mobility of the Outriders).

 

It went quite well for me, all told. The list was definitely outgunned, but not outmatched. Scoring early points kept me in the lead for most of the game and dictated the state of play, and one turn 3 activated I was able to push much deeper and come close to tabling.

 

Lists were as follows:

White Scars:

Kor'sarro Khan

Primaris Chaplain on Bike (Warlord, Master of Sanctity [Master Orator, Imperium's Sword])- Jetbike Relic

 

Judiciar

Primaris Apothecary (Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer)

5 Bladeguard

5 Bladeguard

5 Bladeguard

 

5 Assault Intercessors

5 Assault Intercessors

5 Assault Intercessors

 

4 Outriders

5 Outriders

 

Impulsor with Shield Dome

Impulsor with Shield Dome

Impulsor with Shield Dome

 

Salamanders

Gravis Captain (Warlord, +2 toughness trait)

Indomitus Lieutenant 

Primaris Librarian

 

Intercessor Squad Thunder hammer 

Intercessor Squad Thunder hammer 

Tactical Squad, Barebones

 

Contemptor Dreadnought + fist +multi melta

Venerable Dreadnought with assault cannon

Dreadnought combat weapon + assault cannon

Primaris Ancient

Primaris Ancient

6 Aggressors 

 

Land raider redeemer + storm bolter

3 eradicators

3 eradicators

 

Mission was Frontline Warfare.

My secondaries were Thin their Ranks, Assassinate and Linebreaker.

His were Raise the Banners High, Bring it Down and Attrition.

 

The Mission Play-by-Play:

I used the Impulsors with a character in each one, advancing onto the objectives and holding down. Two were obscured but one was somewhat in the open, so I used our -1 to hit stratagem after advancing. The Biker blob took the leftmost flank and pushed up into the enemy, but the salamanders ignoring -1 AP meant the first turn assault was largely ineffectual. His counterattack wasn't, the Land Raider and Dreadnoughts moved to intercept the bikers and killed 2 of the larger unit. the exposed impulsor died to a hail of eradicator fire- fortunately, everybody lived. He gained 4VP for attrition for killing 1 unit to my none, and an Impulsor has more than 10 wounds. He also raised the banners with the tactical squad on his home objective. he was on 7 to m nil.

 

That said, turn 2 was my time to start. I gained 15 VP for all 3 primaries. Everything disembarked and advanced on upwards, with bikes falling back. My shooting with -2 AP was significantly better, but the Bladeguard proved their worth, alongside some outflanking Assault Intercessors by catching an Ancient, an intercessor squad and the eradicators with a good advance and charge. The Bladeguard in the centre were backed up with Kor'sarro and the Judiciar and promptly took out the venerable and one normal dreadnought, while their Impulsor took off to secure the objective the outriders had left. The Chaplain absolutely destroyed his Gravis Captain due to the Mantra of Strength and Strike off the Head and his truly brutal charge- if this ends up not being part of his core rules, it isn't difficult to see why! By the end of the turn and consolidation, I had managed Linebreaker, Assassinate twice, and one point for Thin Their Ranks- placing my handily on 26 victory points.

 

Massively on the back foot, Vulkan's baby boys tried to push forward- plenty of aggressor flaming happened, and the Land Raider charged one Impulsor to little avail. His turn ended with 13VP, and a Dreadnought tied up with my Bladeguard on the right flank with the apothecary, having slain 2.

 

Turn 3 turned on assault Doctrine- and from there, the Scars just surged up to stop any interference from objective capping. The now depleted Outriders had 1 model left, who fell back and made it to home objective, securing me further VP in following turns. The Apothecary raised a Bladeguard from the grave, and they dismantled their Deadnought foe. The Librarian and other Ancient died, alongside another dreadnought- as Kor'sarro took the head of the Librarian with very little effort. I ended this turn at 52 VP- a further 15 for the objectives, a further 4 for Linebreaker and 6 for Assassinate.  At this stage, my opponent graciously conceded- with only a Contemptor and the Land Raider remaining and shy on command points, and with a lead that was, at this stage, large insurmountable.

 

Though his list had significantly greater shooting power and durability, the sheer mobility and melee presence of this list applied a lot of pressure- and allowed it to run interference for lesser threats to secure objectives. In retrospect, Thin Their Ranks was a poor secondary for me- only the Contemptor and Land Raider were over 10 wounds- and Slay the Warlord was much more easily achievable. Indeed, this list vastly lacks high strength and damage attacks- it was easier for me to simply ignore the Land Raider and evade it's firepower until I had already been able to take their home objective after it pushed to the left area.

 

In this edition, mobility is king, I feel. and that's something we do very well indeed.

 

Hope this helps people, though I admit neither of us are tourney players.

Edited July 26, 2020 by WGXH

[Riddlesworth]

You can't run Wise Orator and Imperium's sword together, sadly.

 

Chogorian storm and wise orator is the closest you'll get.

 

How was selfless healer? What did you run him with?

[WGXH]

Gadzooks, I've been had!

 

I'd never noticed the specific wording on that stratagem- it may make a difference but not a significant one when the Aura of rerolling wounds is up. Thanks for the heads up!

 

Selfless healer worked relatively well. the Apothecary ran behind a unit of 5 Bladeguard and focused on bringing them back while staying out of engagement range. over the course of that game he brought one back when in combat with a Dreadnought, and healed a total of 4 wounds (After raising one, healed d3 to 2, and a heal of 2 after being shot at by some aggressors), so an estimated 5 wound benefit total- with Bladeguard of 2 being an approx 70 points and healing one and two thirds, he made his points back- and there was still plenty he could be doing afterwards.

 

In short, I'm a fan. It's a big CP investment, but I definitely feel he's adding more value the longer the game goes on. With that said, being with the Bladeguard and inside an Impulsor means you can pick your targets- because there will be some foes that you really want to avoid.

[Lemondish]

Are you house ruling your unit sizes or did I miss the information somewhere that Bladeguard can be in larger units than 3?

[WGXH]

House ruled. We deemed it unlikely that they would do so due to the increased emphasis on unit sizes for Blast rules. Absolutely may not be legal.

[Lemondish]

House ruled. We deemed it unlikely that they would do so due to the increased emphasis on unit sizes for Blast rules. Absolutely may not be legal.

Makes sense.

 

Thanks for the insight using them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm running my blood ravens as scars inheritors to capitalize on the units from indomitus and have had one game with them so far to see how things work on the table.

 

My main focus was rapid objective control and I was able to achieve that rather well; outriders have great reach, assault bolters and advancing allow intercessors to cover ground and lightning debarkation from a repulsor put a couple of blade guard squads in great positions. And then I started to thin down the orks that were coming at me, because scars really aren't melee focussed except on particular character builds. They can put work in on turn 3 against multi wound things, but you really can't play them as anything other than standard marines with more reach. You want units that can take advantage of the speed, while being double duty in melee and shooting; intercessors, aggressors and outriders are stand out for this.

 

Um also definitely be careful of exploding repulsors, I managed to roll four more 6s after the initial explodes to decimate my previously very secure flank in a hysterically unlikely series of rolls.

[RyanT2112]

As a person who used Bladeguard Veterans (Blood Angels so bare with me) vs Salamanders (He also had some Bladeguard Vets) - Mine went after his Invictor Warsuit (and killed it) 105 pts vs 165 pts and then the Sgt (who was the last alive) slaughtered a 5-man Intercessor squad alone. (Blood Angel Turn 3 Doctrine) His went after an objective and I could never seem to delete them from the field. Even 4 lascannon shots a turn just weren't lucky enough and then with 3 wounds a piece.....Transhuman making it so I wound on 4s... It was very mean.

 

Bladeguard Vets are 105 pts for 9 wounds, 10 attacks (13 on the charge) with STR 5 ap -3  D2 weapons... for White Scars they're even more incredible (especially turn 3) being able to Advance and Charge.... Imagine AP-4 D3 swords.... oh man... the pain..

 

 

Outriders are also excellent for their points. Extremely durable and 20 inch advance + charge range.... They're going to hammer through with 16 attacks on the charge..... 135 pts for 12 wounds with the movement and the harassment. You're going to push people off their objectives.

 

 

One thing people forget about 9th edition. -- It is not entirely about KILLING your opponent -- Sometimes your goal is just to victory deny points while you get victory points. If you spend a turn denying victory points (using increased white scar mobility) and then you gain your own VPs then you have made a significant balance twist of the game.

 

Armies that don't feel like they can compete with their enemy in their preferred role can play to the mission and still win.

Edited August 8, 2020 by RyanT2112

[durdle-durdle]

Played another game today, I've been trying to decide between liking white scars or blood angels more as a CC focused army in this edition, and I think I'm now squarely in the White Scars camp, at least until CC jump pack marines get released.

 

My list:

-Indomitus captain with the burning blade relic and the Imperiums sword trait (hero of the chapter)

-primaris chaplain, warlord - bellowing firebrand, master of sanctity, catechism of fire and canticle of hate

-incursor squad, 5 man x 2

-Intercessors, 5 man, auto bolt rifle, sgt has power sword x 2

-intercessors, 10 man, bolt rifle, sgt has power sword

-aggresor squax, 3 man, bolt storm gaultlets

-blade guard vets, 3 man

-redemptor dreadnought, onslaught, heavy onslaught, storm bolters, icarus rockets, x2

-Inceptors, 3 man, plasma exterminators

-outrider squad, 3 man

-Supressor squad, 3 man

-eliminator squad, 3 man, bolt sniper rifles, x 2

 

enemy was emperor's children chaos space marines (I don't have their exact list)

-chaos lord

-lord discordant

-noise marines, 10 men, 3 squads

-cultists, 10 man, 2 squads

-havocs, 5 man squad with chainguns, 2 squads

-obliterators, 3 man squad

-3 venomcrawlers

 

2K game.  I went first.  His deployment from left to right was roughly:

Left(noise marines, cultists, 3 venomcrawlers + disco lord) Center: (havocs, chaos lord, havocs, noise marines) right:(cultists, noise marines, and obliterators)

 

I deployed roughly

Left (outriders, redemptor, inceptors, captain, chaplain, bolt rifle intercessors, redemptor) center (empty) right: (auto intercessors, suppressors, eliminators, eliminators, auto intercessors)

The incursors forward deployed on the right side.

 

I got turn 1:

the incursors moved forward, between them, the auto bolters, and the suppressors, they killed an obliterator.  The incursors later charged the oblits (no overwatched) and killed one.  the oblits whiffed and did nothing.

 

On the left, the outriders and left redemptor ran forward.  the rest kind of death balled together and moved up.  Killed a cultist squad, a havoc squad, and a noise marines squad.

 

His turn:

he shot up the auto bolters, killed about half of them.  The oblit did nothing (and couldn't get out of combat)  on the other side, he killed the outrider and damaged a bit of one of the redemptors.  The inceptors lost a guy.  He moved the venomcrawlers and disco lord up.  The disco lord tried to make a charge onto my intercessors and redemptor, but failed the charge.

 

Turn 2: 

the  incursors left combat with the oblit (paid a CP to charge later).  the suppressors took out the oblit, the remaining auto intercessors and the incursors killed a havoc squad.  The auto bolters charged a cultist squad, the incursors charged a noise marine squad.  On the other side, my redemptor moved into range of a venomcrawler, the bladeguard and captain moved into range of another venomcrawler, and the aggressors, other redemptor and chaplain went after the disco lord.  On the left, in shooting, I wiped another noise marine squad and a cultist squad.  In the fight phase, killed the 2 venomcrawlers and the disco lord.   Did not fight the cultists or noise marines, opponent conceeded.

 

 

My secondaries were bring it down, attack on all fronts, and attrition, I think.

 

How I scored isn't really important since it was over turn 2, but I got attack on all fronts in both turns and bring it down 3 times.

 

 

LESSONS LEARNED:

Two close combat armies going at one another is going to be over QUICK.  If you have a strong CC unit attacking another CC unit, it easily depends on who gets the charge off.  So, if we are fighting another CC heavy army army, I would recommend screening your elite guys until you plan on making a charge.  Be careful getting your CC units close to theirs, because if they are able to get the charge on you, they will probably wipe your unit and turn the game really quickly.

 

Suppressors: I think a single unit is great, but not a must have.  The ability to shut down the oblits was very nice and saved some casualties on the incursors for sure.  With a big range, they can make sure your key charges against heavy shooting units go through well.  On the other hand, they only get 1 overwatch and only on 6's, so I could easily see a reason to skip them.

 

Redemptors: oh man, these guys slap.  With all the obscuring terrain and big guns never tire, they can easily gun down a squad and beat down another.  With good positioning, you can ensure they don't take a ton of damage either.  with the chaplain giving a big bubble of +2" to advance and charge from "litanyof go fast", they can move SO FAST across the board and fist stuff.

 

intercessors with auto bolt rifles: they were good in 8th, they're good here.  With no penalty to advancing and shooting AND charging, they move super fast and can bully any non-dedicated CC squads.  

 

eliminators: super meh.  I basically just brought them to forward deploy on the objectives near my deployment zone.  They're fairly cheap and have a great save, can start out on the objective (so they don't need to move where a squad of stalker bolters would).  I dunno.  Not bad, really, not great.  

 

chaplain: master of sanctity is great, and bellowing firebrand makes his bubble for "litany of go fast" really great.  Those long-bomb charges are really easy with the +2".  

 

also:

chaos marines are overcosted, cult units probably need + 1 wound, oblits need a points reduction.  My opponent played the venom crawlers + disco lord badly, IMO.  He put them in a perfect spot for ALL my CC units to charge easily.

 

 

 

 

 

On another note:

my next opponent I'll face at some point is cadian guard with several leman russes.  I'm not very confident on how to deal with that.  He's going to put the russes at the back of the board and just try to shoot me all game.  While I'll be fast, he has plenty of chaff squads to take the charge and then my guys will be in the open while they get shot to pieces from the russes.  Even if I get to the russes, I don't really know how to damage them outside of hitting it with a redemptor or near-suiciding plasma inceptors into them.  In addition, he usually plays a "plasma spam" guard list, which is hard to counter.  (he always plays plasma spam, it's not list tailoring against me)