Bladeguard, what's their place in the TOE?

[Spyros]

With the new models almost upon us, in order to paint them right, what's the place of Bladeguard in the Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE)?

Are they 1st company veterans, or just company veterans?

 

The Ultramarines models from GW have their shoulderpad trims gold/yellow, marking them as 2nd company.

The description from GW site reads:

"- 3x Bladeguard Veterans: These elite warriors serve as their Captain’s honour guard, fighting ever at the heart of the battle. Each model comes supplied with a Citadel 40mm Round Base."

 

Does that make them company veterans?

 

The Bladeguard Ancient description doesn't help:

"- 1x Bladeguard Ancient: The deeds of this storied veteran have earned him the honour of bearing a sacred banner of the Chapter into battle. The model comes supplied with a Citadel 40mm Round Base."

 

For comparison, the Victrix guard of Calgar have white shoulderpad trims (but blue helmets, albeit with an eagle on their faceplate), marking them as 1st company veterans.
 

[Panzer]

Well we don't know until we get a Codex with them in their fluff section. Not sure what you expect to be discussed here. :sweat:

[MegaVolt87]

Could also get lucky and see something mentioned in passing in the lore section of the 9th ed rulebook too somewhere. 

[Tichinde]

they look pretty similar to the guys that came with Primarneus Calgar, maybe just a fancy honour guard?

[MegaVolt87]

they look pretty similar to the guys that came with Primarneus Calgar, maybe just a fancy honour guard?

 

The cpt, Lt and ancient seem to be more interconnected with them than a traditional bodyguard unit, not sure. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Brother Kraskor]

The leaked datasheet has a little fluff blurb and it says something about being 'seconded' to the Chapter's 1st Company - but it's not a clear copy, so hard to be sure.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the best place for them is as part of the chapters honour guard. Generic, primaris analogues to sanguinary guard, ultramarines honour guard, etc...

[WrathOfTheLion]

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

[Acebaur]

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

 

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure. 

[BluejayJunior]

When talking about them on the stream, they mentioned they could be either. Some are part of the 1st company and some are the company veterans for other companies. 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

 

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure. 

 

 

There was quite a discussion about this! Apparently they intentionally painted the BT one not in Sword Brethren colours to make it more easily recognisable as BT for newer players.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure.

There was quite a discussion about this! Apparently they intentionally painted the BT one not in Sword Brethren colours to make it more easily recognisable as BT for newer players.

And yet, the dark angel one lol

[Panzer]

 

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

 

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure. 

 

 

Golden helmet doesn't mean 1st company for BA. Just that they are Veterans. We'd need to see their right pauldron to be sure.

[Mandragola]

I get the impression that GW cares a lot less about chapter and company structure nowadays. Aren't Primaris marines supposed to be trained to use any of the equipment, as required? Of course, that can't really be true of bladeguard, who must have some sort of different status as veterans, but it does mean that there's less need for a structure where an individual marine is permanently a member of a particular kind of squad.  That then means you don't need to have particular kinds of companies, though they may keep the 1st and 10th, I guess.

 

Crimson Fists don't seem to mark their veterans out particularly, so this isn't a tough one for me, at least in terms of the painting. They'll be blue, with red hands.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

 

This will depend on chapter. For DA it looks to be opposite. The Bladeguard are definitively Deathwing/1st Company, with no indication of them in the 3-10 companies. In every other chapter, they've been shown painted in 2-10 company I think.

 

So I think we will need to wait on codexes to see what it all means.

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure.

I was pretty certain UM denoted company by shoulderpad and 2nd company had gold pads.

Edited July 15, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Panzer]

I get the impression that GW cares a lot less about chapter and company structure nowadays. Aren't Primaris marines supposed to be trained to use any of the equipment, as required? Of course, that can't really be true of bladeguard, who must have some sort of different status as veterans, but it does mean that there's less need for a structure where an individual marine is permanently a member of a particular kind of squad.  That then means you don't need to have particular kinds of companies, though they may keep the 1st and 10th, I guess.

 

Crimson Fists don't seem to mark their veterans out particularly, so this isn't a tough one for me, at least in terms of the painting. They'll be blue, with red hands.

Every Marine is trained to use everything. Primaris don't do anything new in that regard.

[dogfender]

I will be using the blade guard as members of the conclave in my Relictors force. Though I am debating if I will keep the tabard look for them. I feel rules wise this is as close as it will get for them.

I will say I hope there are some other options for them later, though that might be weird because their name includes blade.. But am also surprised the unit size doesn’t go range 3-5

Edited July 15, 2020 by dogfender

[FinalCookie]

Wait, don't veterans match their shoulder trim to whatever force they are seconded to? So if an Ultramarine veteran from the 1st company deploys with the third company, he would repaint his trim red? 

[Dracos]

They are whatever Elite unit you want them to be for your Chapter. Depends on how you use them within the framework of your playstyle. Until they come out with a Primaris supplement, they are like everything else Primaris ... similiar but not the same as Devestators/Eradicators, Aggressors/Terminators, Repulsor/Land Raider, etc.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

I get the impression that GW cares a lot less about chapter and company structure nowadays. Aren't Primaris marines supposed to be trained to use any of the equipment, as required? Of course, that can't really be true of bladeguard, who must have some sort of different status as veterans, but it does mean that there's less need for a structure where an individual marine is permanently a member of a particular kind of squad.  That then means you don't need to have particular kinds of companies, though they may keep the 1st and 10th, I guess.

 

Crimson Fists don't seem to mark their veterans out particularly, so this isn't a tough one for me, at least in terms of the painting. They'll be blue, with red hands.

Every Marine is trained to use everything. Primaris don't do anything new in that regard.

 

 

They do, though. The Primaris marines of the Ultima Founding stepped onto the battlefield for the first time having already trained extensively via simulation with all the weapons their chapter carried. This is very unlike firstborn Marines, who spend their entire time in 10th Company just preparing for being able to wear a full suit of power armor. THEN they go on to the reserve companies and get acquainted with heavier weapons and jump packs and learning how to drive Land Raiders and such.

 

Ever since the chapters became a thing 10,000 years ago, firstborn marines have had the advantage of being able to field a First company full of actual combat veterans and four battle companies of marines who'd at least made it through reserve service after their time in the Scout company. Yes, their ranks will sometimes get depleted, but the very nature of the carapace implantation means they were beholden to the process of taking years to train from neophyte to scout to actual competent marine to veteran.

 

Meanwhile, new Primaris chapters from the Ultima Founding had to field all of those companies full of soldiers who'd had exactly zero practical experience. Not all Ultima Founding chapters of course, since most Primaris marines seemed to have served for decades as Greyshields if they weren't sent out as reinforcements to existing chapters in the Torchbearer fleets. But at least some of them came right out of cold storage into brand-new Ultima Founding chapters. So of course they had to do something new.

 

Physically, there's no difference between a "veteran" in a Primaris First Company and a lowly Eliminator in the Vanguard Company. Nor did the former have any combat experience that the latter had yet to acquire. The Eliminator could put on a suit of Aggressor armor and vice versa if required. For those initial Ultima Founding chapters, we don't even know if they assigned individual soldiers to the "veteran" company based on higher simulation scores or if they simply assigned them in the order they were listed when the overall chapter roster was compiled, with the first hundred battle brothers to First Company and the last hundred to Vanguard Company.

 

I'd contend that there shouldn't even have been a veteran company in those first Ultima Founding chapters. Maybe their First Companies should have just been all-Gravis shock troops or something. With GW returning to the early days of the Indomitus Crusade, this would be the perfect time to get answers on that, but it seems like they're once again focusing on pre-existing chapters like Ultramarines or Greyshields who have yet to join or form a chapter. That also seems to inform most or all of the information they provide on how Primaris soldiers progress through the ranks - it makes complete sense within the framework of Primaris joining a Firstborn chapter or newly-made post-Crusade Primaris joining an Ultima Founding chapter, but wouldn't work at all for an all-Primaris chapter coming directly out of Cawl's lab. Nor would the Scout phase even be possible for that first generation of Primaris, who'd have already been fully-grown before they joined a chapter.

[Panzer]

 

 

I get the impression that GW cares a lot less about chapter and company structure nowadays. Aren't Primaris marines supposed to be trained to use any of the equipment, as required? Of course, that can't really be true of bladeguard, who must have some sort of different status as veterans, but it does mean that there's less need for a structure where an individual marine is permanently a member of a particular kind of squad.  That then means you don't need to have particular kinds of companies, though they may keep the 1st and 10th, I guess.

 

Crimson Fists don't seem to mark their veterans out particularly, so this isn't a tough one for me, at least in terms of the painting. They'll be blue, with red hands.

Every Marine is trained to use everything. Primaris don't do anything new in that regard.

 

 

They do, though. The Primaris marines of the Ultima Founding stepped onto the battlefield for the first time having already trained extensively via simulation with all the weapons their chapter carried. This is very unlike firstborn Marines, who spend their entire time in 10th Company just preparing for being able to wear a full suit of power armor. THEN they go on to the reserve companies and get acquainted with heavier weapons and jump packs and learning how to drive Land Raiders and such.

 

Ever since the chapters became a thing 10,000 years ago, firstborn marines have had the advantage of being able to field a First company full of actual combat veterans and four battle companies of marines who'd at least made it through reserve service after their time in the Scout company. Yes, their ranks will sometimes get depleted, but the very nature of the carapace implantation means they were beholden to the process of taking years to train from neophyte to scout to actual competent marine to veteran.

 

Meanwhile, new Primaris chapters from the Ultima Founding had to field all of those companies full of soldiers who'd had exactly zero practical experience. Not all Ultima Founding chapters of course, since most Primaris marines seemed to have served for decades as Greyshields if they weren't sent out as reinforcements to existing chapters in the Torchbearer fleets. But at least some of them came right out of cold storage into brand-new Ultima Founding chapters. So of course they had to do something new.

 

Physically, there's no difference between a "veteran" in a Primaris First Company and a lowly Eliminator in the Vanguard Company. Nor did the former have any combat experience that the latter had yet to acquire. The Eliminator could put on a suit of Aggressor armor and vice versa if required. For those initial Ultima Founding chapters, we don't even know if they assigned individual soldiers to the "veteran" company based on higher simulation scores or if they simply assigned them in the order they were listed when the overall chapter roster was compiled, with the first hundred battle brothers to First Company and the last hundred to Vanguard Company.

 

I'd contend that there shouldn't even have been a veteran company in those first Ultima Founding chapters. Maybe their First Companies should have just been all-Gravis shock troops or something. With GW returning to the early days of the Indomitus Crusade, this would be the perfect time to get answers on that, but it seems like they're once again focusing on pre-existing chapters like Ultramarines or Greyshields who have yet to join or form a chapter. That also seems to inform most or all of the information they provide on how Primaris soldiers progress through the ranks - it makes complete sense within the framework of Primaris joining a Firstborn chapter or newly-made post-Crusade Primaris joining an Ultima Founding chapter, but wouldn't work at all for an all-Primaris chapter coming directly out of Cawl's lab. Nor would the Scout phase even be possible for that first generation of Primaris, who'd have already been fully-grown before they joined a chapter.

 

 

That's just for the first batch though. All the Primaris after those get trained the same way as regular Marines, just with different gear.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Seems like they are mostly painted in 1st company colors, UM have white helmets BA have gold etc. They screwed up BT because this guy would clearly be a Sword Brethren, but I'm not super surprised GW doesn't understand our command structure. 

 

 

White helmets denotes Veteran status. White shoulder trims denotes 1st Company. Those Bladeguard have gold shoulder trims and white helmets, so they're 2nd Company Veterans.

 

I get the impression that GW cares a lot less about chapter and company structure nowadays. Aren't Primaris marines supposed to be trained to use any of the equipment, as required? Of course, that can't really be true of bladeguard, who must have some sort of different status as veterans, but it does mean that there's less need for a structure where an individual marine is permanently a member of a particular kind of squad.  That then means you don't need to have particular kinds of companies, though they may keep the 1st and 10th, I guess.

 

Crimson Fists don't seem to mark their veterans out particularly, so this isn't a tough one for me, at least in terms of the painting. They'll be blue, with red hands.

 

Don't Crimson Fists have their right fist red and a Crux Terminatus sculpted/painted on their right shoulder pad for Vets? That's how it used to be back in 3rd. I don't know if it's been changed since.

 

Wait, don't veterans match their shoulder trim to whatever force they are seconded to? So if an Ultramarine veteran from the 1st company deploys with the third company, he would repaint his trim red? 

 

Nope. 1st Company don't change their shoulder pad trims. In fact, until the changes in 8th nobody changed their shoulder pad trims no matter who they deployed with. Even now, it's just an optional thing to let people have bigger armies with every guy painted the same.

 

[Doghouse]

This explains it in full:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/655371601?collection=hI4zp7JkDhZiHw

[Lord_Caerolion]

This explains it in full:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/655371601?collection=hI4zp7JkDhZiHw

 

Any transcript, for those who are at work and can't watch?

[Doghouse]

Bladeguard can be Company Veterans, Honour Guard or First Company Veterans. When a Chapter goes on a Crusade the Chapter Relics are carried by the first company into battle and are the relics themselves are not lent to the other companies.

 

Codex first company can be identified by the white helmet but they also adopt the shoulder trim of the company they are attached to. So a first company vet assigned to second company would have a white helmet with a gold trim on the shoulder pads, if they were attached to the third company they'd have a red trim, and so on. It sounds like an Ultramarines second company veteran would be blue helmet and gold trim.

 

If say the first company second squad was attached to the second company, the second company already has a second squad so the first company veteran squad would be identified by it's sergeant's name rather than it's numerical designation.

 

With the Imperial Fist was painted in the same approach, white helmet indicating first company, the black trim shows he is attached to the fifth company.