9th Edition and Legends

[Panzer]

They could have just released the primaris as a correctly scaled marine and said to replace our old ones at our own pace (how they handled the newly scaled tda in 5th). This would have reduced or possibly completely removed any feelings of invalidation.

 

Many people argue that they've changed models or editions before, but the base fact is that in those previous edition changes and even to some extent model updates, the old models/units were never truly invalidated (there have been some admittedly over the years but not on this scale). By relegating these things to the legends book GW is officially making them illegal for play in current/future rules editions.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong i want to be in on the Primaris, i want to have properly scaled marines. But i also don't to give up the flavor of my Wolves. I don't want the units that drew me into the game in the first place, the very thing that has acquired my love and fascination, to die.

 

Making the primaris as new units and then slowly piece by piece invalidating and illegal-izing those things that made the other chapters unique, with no appropriate replacement is torturous to those of us who play a faction out of love and not because it's the new hotness.

 

Intercessors/Aggressors/etc are not tacticals/grey Hunters/death company/black knights/etc. They don't get the rules those unique units get, they don't get the same wargear distribution layout just with the new bolt weapons instead of the old. They are in fact two entirely different things.

 

Would it be so bad/hard if GW just said "eventually you'll have your primaris blood claws/etc" just so we know that our factions are safe?

 

They could have done that, but you better believe that people would have been similarly upset anyway. I still remember all those arguments a few years ago (it's really been that long already lol) when Primaris were still only a rumour. There was literally no way for GW to do it without upsetting a lot of people. It was basically a coin flip with which way to go and they went with giving the new models a new narrative so they could come up with completely new units instead of having to just rehash the already existing units.

 

And that's the crux. They aren't just replacing old models. They are creating new units (crunch) as well. Marines are basically evolving into a new army. Similar but yet different.

 

As for the subfaction specific units. Give it time! They are still only doing the core of what a Marine army is going to be. Marines have a HUGE model range with tons of units in their Codex even without the subfaction unique stuff. The Codex is much much thicker than the one of any other faction in the game. Primaris won't be any different. Heck the fact alone that there are several subfaction specific units just shows how much Space Marine focussed 40k is.

GW won't say what's coming because plans can change and because they don't want to give 3rd party companies the opportunity to release those units before they can. That's why you don't find any units mentioned in novels etc. before they got released either (the Overlord is a big and unexpected exception and I'm pretty sure the author just screwed up big time there).

[Captain Idaho]

Thing I'm concerned with is the attention focused on Primaris means other lines that need new models are being left by the wayside.

 

Still, as a Necrons fan I've done alright. I'm glad I'm not an Ork, Eldar or Guard player.

[Panzer]

It's honestly something that really bugs me about 40k. It's Marines Marines Marines with a side of whatever else. As much as I like my Blood Angels ... it gets stale. They tried to do something similar with Stormcasts in AoS early but quickly backpaddled when they realised the AoS community doesn't drink the Marine coolaid as much as the 40k community. Now Stormcasts are still a big focus and everything but not nearly as much as Marines in 40k. Luckily.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Panzer

[Gederas]

That's why you don't find any units mentioned in novels etc. before they got released either (the Overlord is a big and unexpected exception and I'm pretty sure the author just screwed up big time there).

You sure about that?

 

Primaris Outriders were mentioned in a book, in detail, long before they were even revealed.

 

Space Marine Conquests: Apocalypse - Released June 29th, 2019

Primaris Outriders - Officially Revealed June 13th(?) 2020

 

That's a full year gap.... :lol:

 

[Panzer]

If I recall correctly Apocalypse was a pretty rushed job so that might explain that. ^^

Edited July 29, 2020 by Panzer

[Evil Eye]

Putting aside that I really don't think Firstborn will be Legendsed, I've always found the "Legends = DEAD" argument rather odd. It's not even like they've been relegated to Narrative Play only- they have points values, literally the only places you can't use them are some of the more restrictive tournaments. It's better than what the AoS Legends models got, where they have no points costs and can only be used with other Legends units.

[Gederas]

Putting aside that I really don't think Firstborn will be Legendsed, I've always found the "Legends = DEAD" argument rather odd. It's not even like they've been relegated to Narrative Play only- they have points values, literally the only places you can't use them are some of the more restrictive tournaments. It's better than what the AoS Legends models got, where they have no points costs and can only be used with other Legends units.

Because Legends units aren't recommended for tournaments.

 

And if it's not recommended for tournaments, it's banned because people seem to think that "tournament rules = only way to play Matched Play".

 

TL;DR: Tournament players (and the people who blindly follow tournaments) poisoned the well

Edited July 29, 2020 by Gederas

[Panzer]

Putting aside that I really don't think Firstborn will be Legendsed, I've always found the "Legends = DEAD" argument rather odd. It's not even like they've been relegated to Narrative Play only- they have points values, literally the only places you can't use them are some of the more restrictive tournaments. It's better than what the AoS Legends models got, where they have no points costs and can only be used with other Legends units.

 

Of course they won't be instantly dead but eventually they will be about as dead as if they were not getting an updated Codex for several editions. Sure there are rules but over time they will be grossly outdated. The fact that Legends won't be allowed on big tournaments makes it just even worse. That's just the nature of things.

[Ishagu]

Classic Marines aren't going into legends any time soon, but it's clear and obvious that Primaris are the range of the future.

 

My advice to people who actually enjoy being in this hobby is to collect them gradually. I started collecting Primaris slowly, unit by unit, at the start of 8th. I didn't even use them in a game for the first 12-18 months. Eventually I had a large collection and could start building lists around them.

 

We're approaching 4 years since they were unveiled, and the range has now grown so much that many of the old complaints are redundant. It isn't complete yet, but it's far more viable and varied, and this will only get better with the next codex.

 

If you had slowly added a single Primaris unit to your collection once every 3 months you would already have a large army ready by now. I basically did that but added units more frequently after I grew to really like the models. Once I saw a fully painted squad of Intercessors on my table, as part of my army, there was no going back. I simply think that at this point, 4 years after the fact, it's a bit redundant to complain or be paralysed about your hobby future. This has been a very gradual transition, and for over 2 years the Primaris were a sub optimal army that didn't push you into running them.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

Classic marines aren't in a position to go to legends anytime soon. They also make no sense to go to legends in the current lore, as regular Astartes are quite prevalent in the Indomitus era and even through the Plague Wars.

 

I figure if it happens, it will coincide with a somewhat large progression in the timeline.

[Schurge]

Plot twist: After the Primaris line is finished oldmarines get rebooted.

 

Bonus twist: Following all Marines being consolidated into one codex the non-Imperium factions get the AoS treatment and have all their lines rebuilt from the ground up.

[Captain Idaho]

I would have such respect for GW if they put more effort into the Classic Marines line again that I wouldn't doubt them again. Ever.

 

But I've got as much chance of that as my thinning hair hair growing back!

[Noserenda]

They tried that though (Badly imho) and it didnt pull in enough to warrant sticking with the idea, which is the whole reason we got Primaris in the first place.

My income is legit pitiful as im unable to work but through various starters (Wish id got Shadowspear!) Conquest and the odd second hand buy ive ended up with quite a chunk of Primaris, enough to do weird side projects like Blackshields and Space Wolves on top of my Scythes army over the last few years, though id hate to buy a whole army at RRP! 

[nanosquid]

Primaris is the New Coke of miniature gaming, except some people like Primaris.

 

I don't play loyalists at all so I don't have a dog in the hunt, but for what it's worth the primaris aesthetic appeals to me more.

[Lexington]

And if it's not recommended for tournaments, it's banned because people seem to think that "tournament rules = only way to play Matched Play".

 

While I know this is a truism in a lot of 40K circles, it still kind of astounds me. Has yet to happen to me, but the moment someone told me I couldn't use my very expensive and lovingly-crafted miniatures that have valid rules because they like to cling to the fantasy that 40K is in any useful way balanced, the glare they'd get would likely disintegrate their entire soul.

[Snazzy]

Classic Marines aren't going into legends any time soon, but it's clear and obvious that Primaris are the range of the future.

 

My advice to people who actually enjoy being in this hobby is to collect them gradually. I started collecting Primaris slowly, unit by unit, at the start of 8th. I didn't even use them in a game for the first 12-18 months. Eventually I had a large collection and could start building lists around them.

 

We're approaching 4 years since they were unveiled, and the range has now grown so much that many of the old complaints are redundant. It isn't complete yet, but it's far more viable and varied, and this will only get better with the next codex.

 

If you had slowly added a single Primaris unit to your collection once every 3 months you would already have a large army ready by now. I basically did that but added units more frequently after I grew to really like the models. Once I saw a fully painted squad of Intercessors on my table, as part of my army, there was no going back. I simply think that at this point, 4 years after the fact, it's a bit redundant to complain or be paralysed about your hobby future. This has been a very gradual transition, and for over 2 years the Primaris were a sub optimal army that didn't push you into running them.

 

This assumes that we accept the replacement of our collections.  This isn't a case of a single unit being rendered uncompetitive in an edition change or points revision.  This isn't a faction being out in the wilderness by some author's take on their Codex.  This is an increasingly obvious coercion.  Our collections are more than video game DLC.  We pour our hearts and time into our collections.  For some people to feel betrayed is understandable. I may not quit 40K, as i have other armies.  But, i will stop playing Space Marines when GW forces the issue. 

[Scribe]

 

Classic Marines aren't going into legends any time soon, but it's clear and obvious that Primaris are the range of the future.

 

My advice to people who actually enjoy being in this hobby is to collect them gradually. I started collecting Primaris slowly, unit by unit, at the start of 8th. I didn't even use them in a game for the first 12-18 months. Eventually I had a large collection and could start building lists around them.

 

We're approaching 4 years since they were unveiled, and the range has now grown so much that many of the old complaints are redundant. It isn't complete yet, but it's far more viable and varied, and this will only get better with the next codex.

 

If you had slowly added a single Primaris unit to your collection once every 3 months you would already have a large army ready by now. I basically did that but added units more frequently after I grew to really like the models. Once I saw a fully painted squad of Intercessors on my table, as part of my army, there was no going back. I simply think that at this point, 4 years after the fact, it's a bit redundant to complain or be paralysed about your hobby future. This has been a very gradual transition, and for over 2 years the Primaris were a sub optimal army that didn't push you into running them.

 

This assumes that we accept the replacement of our collections.  This isn't a case of a single unit being rendered uncompetitive in an edition change or points revision.  This isn't a faction being out in the wilderness by some author's take on their Codex.  This is an increasingly obvious coercion.  Our collections are more than video game DLC.  We pour our hearts and time into our collections.  For some people to feel betrayed is understandable. I may not quit 40K, as i have other armies.  But, i will stop playing Space Marines when GW forces the issue. 

 

 

You are not wrong here, but neither is Ishagu. 4 years is a long time. Nothing has (to date) been forced.

 

Anyone who wanted to could see where the Primaris path was leading. Updating (complete with nostalgia driven pose!) characters like Mephiston is the final nail in the coffin for me.

 

The old line for Marines is done, and honestly I cant fault them. Loyalists got more, get more!, than anyone else and its not remotely close. Eventually they need a reboot, and its here.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Classic Marines aren't going into legends any time soon, but it's clear and obvious that Primaris are the range of the future.

My advice to people who actually enjoy being in this hobby is to collect them gradually. I started collecting Primaris slowly, unit by unit, at the start of 8th. I didn't even use them in a game for the first 12-18 months. Eventually I had a large collection and could start building lists around them.

We're approaching 4 years since they were unveiled, and the range has now grown so much that many of the old complaints are redundant. It isn't complete yet, but it's far more viable and varied, and this will only get better with the next codex.

If you had slowly added a single Primaris unit to your collection once every 3 months you would already have a large army ready by now. I basically did that but added units more frequently after I grew to really like the models. Once I saw a fully painted squad of Intercessors on my table, as part of my army, there was no going back. I simply think that at this point, 4 years after the fact, it's a bit redundant to complain or be paralysed about your hobby future. This has been a very gradual transition, and for over 2 years the Primaris were a sub optimal army that didn't push you into running them.

 

 

This assumes that we accept the replacement of our collections.  This isn't a case of a single unit being rendered uncompetitive in an edition change or points revision.  This isn't a faction being out in the wilderness by some author's take on their Codex.  This is an increasingly obvious coercion.  Our collections are more than video game DLC.  We pour our hearts and time into our collections.  For some people to feel betrayed is understandable. I may not quit 40K, as i have other armies.  But, i will stop playing Space Marines when GW forces the issue.

The writing is on the wall. Is only a matter of time now.

[Robbienw]

Reset the clock. Edited August 5, 2020 by Robbienw

[ThePenitentOne]

I would have such respect for GW if they put more effort into the Classic Marines line again that I wouldn't doubt them again. Ever.

 

But I've got as much chance of that as my thinning hair hair growing back!

 

See, I said the exact same thing about the Sisters of Battle after 12 years without a new model and the Genestealer Cult after it completely disappeared for two decades.

 

That's why I'm already in the place where I'll never doubt GW again. 

[Bryan Blaire]

We're really drifting off the subject of Legends, but honestly GW was never going to win with players whether they just released the models as better scaled classic Astartes (look at all the folks that complain about scale) but no rules changes, didn't release any models at all but adjusted the rules to the more Primaris styled rules (Movie Marines!), released the rescaled Marines as Astartes but with upgraded rules for all Astartes, released the line as Primaris, or just never bothered to release new Astartes models at all (after all, look at all the complaints about some of the new classic Astartes models they did release - I personally still shudder at some of the ideas). Some segment of the community was going to complain loudly, and some were going to make it work for them regardless of the situation as well. From Jes Goodwin's own mouth we know that what is Primaris now started out as a project to rescale classic Astartes.

 

I think people are also ignoring the idea that GW creators themselves were apparently sort of tired of Marines and the same old same old - they can hardly claim to be pushing the boundaries of plastic model capability when they just keep releasing the same old thing with some doodads here and there changing. People were clearly already trying different scale concepts for Marines out in the community, and it was growing in popularity. Continuous rehashing of the Marine line probably wasn't that great for attracting new talent either, and it doesn't seem like it was continuing to produce the kinds of returns that lead to a doubling of factory floor space and needing your own power generation capability (which is actually a big deal in it's own right, no matter the size of the generating plant).

 

People can talk about "If GW would have only released this, their slump would have been over" but no one actually knows if that's true - we don't even know if GW would have necessarily survived, much less grown the way it has, without them really shaking things up. They knew how things bit them ala Age of Sigmar, so they tried to play it more safely while still shaking things up, and for all the detractors and doubters and detesters of forward movement, it seems to have worked. I'm still not personally convinced that GW is going to force you to put away your old toys, not this Edition, and maybe not even next - they may continue to try and entice you to do so, and even eventually give you a sandbox all their own for older models at some point though, probably around 11th Edition - Legends might actually be that sandbox.

[chapter master 454]

Still want to know what their plans are proper. I mean the moment firstborn get scrapped, a bunch of old-scale intercessors appear.

[Bryan Blaire]

Still want to know what their plans are proper. I mean the moment firstborn get scrapped, a bunch of old-scale intercessors appear.

I've been telling people to do that for years now...

[Snazzy]

 

The writing is on the wall. Is only a matter of time now.

 

 

That's on GW.  Not me.

[brother_b]

 

 

The writing is on the wall. Is only a matter of time now.

 

That's on GW. Not me.

Black Blow Fly I believe is somehow affiliated with Bell of Lost Souls and based on their numerous articles regarding the eminent replacement of OG marines and their glee in the coming Priamrisapocalypse I’m pretty sure he gets a cut of each primaris marine sold.

 

Seeing how popular Indomitus is I’m betting their portfolios are looking fatter than a greater demon of nurgle.

 

I, of course, merely jest.

 

The writing is on the wall and I wonder how long before those OG marines go the way of the dodo.

 

I’m wondering if in future codexes... codeci... codesesices? Anyway I wonder if they’ll have an entry for a unit of OG marines a la Deathwatch. A place you can mix and match what you want etc.