9th Edition and Legends

[Captain Idaho]

The hobby is a very personal thing. Everyone will react differently to their units and armies being updated or replaced. People are totally entitled to embrace Primaris for whatever reason they fancy. People are also entitled to be disappointed when their cherished collection goes into Legends and thus disappears into obscurity and obsolescence.

 

Ultimately, we'll all move on one way or another. The most important factor is finding enjoyment in the hobby still, after this and I hope we all do and continue for many years yet.

[Ishagu]

Of course they are. But we are now 4 years on from the introduction of Primaris.

 

Everyone who had a problem initially needs to ask themselves if they are on board with the hobby or not? Ask yourself if you still enjoy it? You have to come to terms with change and see the good that comes with it, and decide if the good outweighs the bad in your personal opinion.

I went through this process myself, as I have said. I decided that being a part of this hobby has more value than simply the physical models I had collected and painted.

 

To spend YEARS complaining about something, fighting against it, hating it, etc. That's not going to create an enjoyable experience for you or those around you.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Robbienw]

3 years.

 

They were previewed in May 2017 and the first ones were released in June 2017.

 

I still massively enjoy the hobby fella, its far more 3 dimensional than liking or disliking the lastest space marine release :lol:  I think you need to broaden your horizons a bit.

[Ishagu]

I wish you would post something more 3 dimensional than your typical criticism of new Primaris models lol

 

I think you need to broaden your horizons a bit.

 

As for myself, I'm currently collecting and building up 4 different armies, investing in the lore, etc. I think my horizons are pretty broad!

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Robbienw]

I say it as i see it

 

In terms of broadening horizons, i meant more of how you view the hobby.  We don't all see it like you, disliking some space marine models is not the major issue you think it is .  One can still derive enjoyment from the array of other factions and models lines GW produces, without even giveing much of a thought to whole other ones.

 

We all have a lot of different armies and interests in multiple factions, i think this goes without saying.

 

We are all 'invested in the lore' as well, i think this is obvious.  One of the main drivers of critcism in the lore is because people are so invested in it, a major change can throw them of a bit.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Robbienw

[Ishagu]

I agree it can throw them off. But after 3 years (as you have corrected me), I think it has given everyone a chance to adjust and come to terms with things. How many years do you require before you jump on board?

 

A lot of criticism comes from people who have not invested time in the lore and novels that serve to flesh things out better.

 

Others are unreasonable and complain that the Primaris lore isn't as well developed as what came before it. Of course it isn't!

The older lore has grown slowly over 30 years. Give GW more time and eventually it will be more detailed.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

I hope Legends doesn't go anywhere, not because I use it (I don't) but because I know others still use and like the stuff from them.

i try not to poo poo classic marines as whilst I think primaris are better both for rules and models, I recognise that it's just my opinion. I'd like it if everyone got along... that would be nice.

All that being said, clearly they'll drop Legends eventually, but i bet it wont be for a number more years, i still don't see classic marines going anywhere for a fair while longer either, and when they do, they'd likely got to legends and still get another 4-5 years after that IMO.

[Robbienw]

I agree it can throw them off. But after 3 years (as you have corrected me), I think it has given everyone a chance to adjust and come to terms with things. How many years do you require before you jump on board?

 

A lot of criticism comes from people who have not invested time in the lore and novels that serve to flesh things out better.

 

Others are unreasonable and complain that the Primaris lore isn't as well developed as what came before it. Of course it isn't!

The older lore has grown slowly over 30 years. Give GW more time and eventually it will be more detailed.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by jumping on board?

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think you truly understand people's concerns, Ishagu. You're saying you believe a lot of criticism comes from not reading the lore or novels that flesh out the changes, but that is an assumption and likely misses the crux of it.

 

I like many people have read that lore. I understand it.

 

Other people have read it. They understand it. They just don't like it.

 

You also are talking to people about time going by so they accept the changes they are not happy with, like you have. This again shows that you don't understand what your frater here are unhappy with. People DON'T WANT TO replace their existing models with different ones. I happen to like my 2nd edition Predator. I happen to like my 2nd edition Techmarine, or the Rhinos I bought in 7th edition.

 

I paid money for those things. I invested time and care into them.

 

A company that forces me to discard them (which is what Legends is the start of) will not see me "jumping on board". It will ostracise me and discourage my spending.

 

That doesn't mean I think anyone is WRONG for getting into Primaris and ENJOYING their hobby. Great. I fully applaud it. The Indomitus box and new Gladiator tank look great. It's just my (and others) personal choice regarding the hobby.

 

(For context, I can get on board with a lovely Gladiator or 2 as they being vehicles work alongside the aesthetic of my existing army)

Edited August 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[chapter master 454]

I agree it can throw them off. But after 3 years (as you have corrected me), I think it has given everyone a chance to adjust and come to terms with things. How many years do you require before you jump on board?

 

A lot of criticism comes from people who have not invested time in the lore and novels that serve to flesh things out better.

 

Others are unreasonable and complain that the Primaris lore isn't as well developed as what came before it. Of course it isn't!

The older lore has grown slowly over 30 years. Give GW more time and eventually it will be more detailed.

 

If a person needs to read several novels, read the lore and then make a double pass on those sources to make something enjoyable in the game then I am afraid there is a failure somewhere in that line.

Primaris are contentious because they challenge the most iconic faction in the game for top dog position and they got it purely because GW says so. And when a faction as popular as Space Marines suddenly gets rumbled up on by this in such a fashion, you are going to cause wrinkles and hard.

 

Given time, Primaris will have as much messy lore as firstborns that contradicts itself and goes in so many circles it may summon daemons just trying to graph it. Lore can be one issue, the question is will Primaris be good or will it just be "space marine lore but primaris-ised" which would further cause friction as then the choice was purely based on greed (however I yield that they are a business. This point is about principle and decency, not about what their goals are).

 

As far as I am concerned, I like the infantry models of the Primaris with only 1-2 exceptions (the big one being Inceptors really. Hellblasters too...they feel lazy) however their tanks are just god-awful looking because of their repulsor nonsense. I mean, the Repulsor tank itself, the chassis, is some sort weird mix of the Chimera and Bradley IFV (I believe that's the one I am thinking of...to many tanks with random names...) and for some that may look nice but for me...it looks wrong as it feels front loaded and unbalanced in design (too much happening in the front half) along with not having tracks.

However I want to like the Gladiator and I do like the Impulsor (the Impulsor is where grav plates make sense, fast moving transport). The Gladiator would be been a home-run for me if they put tracks on it instead of grav plates. No amount of lore will make me like it. No amount of apologist explainations of how it is more brutal than using treads to grind an enemy to paste and get their skull, muscle and blood jammed into the gaps between tread links, their viscera as much a lubricant for the machine as the oil.

 

I love my Land Raiders. They are the very definition of what I loved first in 40k. More than the space marines I first got with their derpy stand to attention boltgun moulded to their chest pose, I loved my Land Raider. I still have it, though my plans are to put it under extreme surgery to fix my 10 year-old self errors but even then I still love it. It looks amazing despite my derps because how can you not love a Land Raider design? It is as elegant as it is simple, as well formed as it is jagged. A design that would stand the test of time beyond any other design in my opinion, more iconic than anything the Primaris will present and will always be the superior tank for it was, is and shall always be the definition of what was the heaviest tank in the game, the OG 14AV all-round, Brightlance voted number 1 "Target Priority" beast of war that was only outmatched by Necron Monoliths of their 3rd edition codex.

 

No. I will not enjoy the Executioner. No I will not enjoy the Repulsor. Why? Because they aren't what I like. They aren't heavy, they float. If I wanted floating tanks I would go to -deep inhale and to the beat of the pokerap but way out of tune- Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Ynnari or Harlequins. Even outside of that, if I wanted hover tanks I could also invest in Custodes if I wanted to. All of those factions also make their grav-tanks look good and fit in with their design style or not just the faction but the universe. Suddenly, Primaris show up in Modern Military gear looking knock-offs and it really sticks out and not in the good way. Part of the Imperium jam is the crude technology they use, barely understood machines. The few grav vehicles they have are small craft such as the land speeder and not these tanks which makes no sense to make hover.

I can dismantle the design on a practical level but this is 40k, that argument holds water as well as an ork holds logic!

 

My old marines are worth not just the money I paid for them. They are worth the time I spent not just building and painting them but also worth the memories. The weight of the model is measured not just purely in plastic, glue and paint, but in the total of what it has represented. To some, models do indeed almost harbour a form of being as we all have THAT model that just seems to always hit, that model who just can't make a save ever, the Vindicare that always misses, the tank that can take 50 lascannons to the face but seems to always make it through. Their history is not written just in lore, it is written on the table-top in our stories and while in the grim dark future there is only war, those stories are what we cherish and while they may not matter to majority, they matter to us. And as long as they matter, they have worth. As long as they have worth, they are without question OUR models. First. Foremost. Forever.

My Land Raider Phobos "Stoorworm" will go no-where. It is my most cherished model. You tell me to discard it for those abominations of models purely because "writing is on the wall". Sorry but the writing is only on the wall so long as we permit it. GW may be a model company but the community decide if they continue or not. Do not tell me what models I should like and not.

I like a good lot of the Primaris line. I also like a majority of the Firstborn line. If both sell, why not both?

[Sergeant Centurion]

Chapter Master 454, im take my hat off to you. You write my exact feelings about this hobby and my main army.  

[Arkhanist]

I do like some Primaris models; the overall design of basically giving marines an abdomen and slightly bigger limbs works well for intercessors etc. Mephiston is mint. The gravis look is ok, apart from th e helmet on helmet versions.

 

I don't like the tacticool Phobos design, especially the short trouser look.

 

The gladiator is the first new vehicle I like; the repulsor chassis has way too many different guns on it.

 

But my favourite models? Terminators. Land raiders. Deimos predators. Classic dreads.

 

There's also plenty of options that make up a big part of a BA army that aren't Primaris yet and may never be; flyers, jump pack assault units, hell characters with jump packs.

 

The thing I like least though is the simplification of the options. My death company, vanguard vets, tactical marines, etc all have lots of loadout options for different tasks, or a jack of all trades setup. The only Primaris option is basically the intercessor sgt melee weapon, and even that was like pulling teeth, everything else is 'buy a new unit'. Comparing death company to death company intercessors is just painful.

 

I have nearly 30 years of collecting marines, and while I understand the business reason to sell us all a new army over time, I really hope they don't chuck us under a bus by forcing us to give up the variety and history with firstborn any time soon. The BA kits were refreshed only a couple of years before Primaris kit came out and of course are still sold. Three years might be enough to say goodbye to hundreds of quids worth and hundreds of hours of work for some, but it sure as hell isn't for me.

 

And meanwhile, armies that desperately need some love with kits old enough to drink, like orks, eldar or guard languish while yet another primaris expansion comes out.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Ishagu]

@Chapter Master 454 & Idaho

 

You don't HAVE to read the novels, but they are official lore. You are free to dismiss them entirely, but in doing so you can't have a valid opinion on the quality of the lore. I find the idea that someone would willingly dismiss the novels to be at odds with their claim to care about the lore and setting.

 

As for the hover tanks, I don't see where the hate for them comes from. They are more practical than the variants with tracks, and the lore behind them is perfectly 40k. They aren't traditional Grav tanks, they use Repulsor technology to push themselves above the ground, crushing everything beneath them.

Visually they are very close to the Landraider and Rhino chassis vehicles, with the exception of the tracks. In my opinion they are a great way to distinguish the elite, technologically sophisticated Astartes from the general, lower quality armies of the Imperium. And quite frankly, the Landraider would get beached on the first bump it came across, but you don't see me ranting about it's awful, silly design in multiple topics in the same way that some individuals subjectively nitpick the new kits.

 

You are free to like your old models all you want. And yes, we've all spent money and time on our hobby. I'm saying that if you can't move forward as GW are doing, and it's causing you to have resentment at the new direction and models, then you need to re-evaluate where you stand. I'm not telling anyone to drop their old kits, and GW certainly won't tell you to do so. This isn't necessarily aimed at either of you, but it does apply to some members of the forum.

 

Unfortunately some people DO openly resent the new direction, and they DO regurgitate the same negative opinions in every conversation they engage in. After 3 years it's no longer constructive or valuable to do so.

 

I do agree that we've gone through a lot of Primaris releases, but I also recognise the reasons for this. They make a lot of money, obviously, but GW are also trying to create a complete range of the new Astartes. Eventually they will have to stand as a complete, separate army that can cover all functions on the tabletop.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

You are funny. When did I say I dismissed the lore? I didn't even say I don't like it.

 

It's clear you don't understand where anyone is coming from here.

[Ishagu]

You didn't, but Chapter Master 454 stated in his above post that the lore has failed because it requires you to read some novels in order to get a better grasp of it.

 

It's clear you didn't read every post in this conversation. Not every single comment I make is in response to you directly. There are multiple parties in this discussion.

 

Don't be dismissive and snide, nothing here should be upsetting to anyone. Just mild difference of opinions and observations.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Robbienw]

He just doesn't get it :lol:

 

No, it doesn't mean any of us who don't like a particular new aspect of 40k need to re-evaluate where we stand.  As has already been explained to you, there are many facets and factions to 40k, and you can enjoy many parts of it whilst disliking other parts.  

 

Thinking not liking primaris model and/or primaris lore means someone needs to 're-evaluate where they stand' and is not doing the hobby properly is a laughable position to take.

 

I think you need to re-evaluate your inability to understand the viewpoints of others.  And re-evaluate your problem with taking criticism of Primaris models as a personal attack on yourself.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Robbienw

[Captain Idaho]

Ishagu: No, but if you read what you typed here, I think that's understandable anyone would think you're talking to me!

 

@Chapter Master 454 & Idaho

 

You don't HAVE to read the novels, but they are official lore. You are free to dismiss them entirely, but in doing so you can't have a valid opinion on the quality of the lore. I find the idea that someone would willingly dismiss the novels to be at odds with their claim to care about the lore and setting.

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

@Robbienw

 

Again, rudeness. I think you are the one who has failed to grasp what I said. I'll summarise it for you:

 

1: I don't think classic Marines are going to Legends any time soon

2: People are free to buy and use whatever models they want to

3: I have no issue with someone preferring the old range over the new one. This is entirely subjective.

4: It's redundant to hate the new range at this point in time to the point where it damages your enjoyment of the hobby.

5: There are both pros and cons to the Primaris, but they are very successful and are here to stay.

 

I'm not the one getting offended over these perfectly reasonable views. I think you need to reflect on why you are getting angry.

 

 

Ishagu: No, but if you read what you typed here, I think that's understandable anyone would think you're talking to me!

 

 

@Chapter Master 454 & Idaho

 

You don't HAVE to read the novels, but they are official lore. You are free to dismiss them entirely, but in doing so you can't have a valid opinion on the quality of the lore. I find the idea that someone would willingly dismiss the novels to be at odds with their claim to care about the lore and setting.

 

 

Yes my post was in response to comments of both yourself and CM454. You can extrapolate which part responds to who, but if you'd like I can mark out each sentence and paragraph?

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Come on now everyone, things are just now starting to get heated and it has been fairly easy up until this point.

 

We don't have to all agree. We can just accept that and move to more entertaining parts of discussion elsewhere on the board. :)

[Bryan Blaire]

There is a mistake in logic of the idea that Primaris have "rumbled up" to challenge the most popular, iconic faction - they didn't, they are Marines, the lot of classic and Primaris - all Imperial-aligned Marines (you can even tell this because they are the exact same category on the GW website). So the division is only in people's minds - GW hasn't divided them, Primaris are an addition to the standard Marine line.

 

Luckily for everyone that still enjoys classic Astartes, they are still being sold - as far as I can tell, all the "modern" classic kits (those from the last 10-12 years or so), minus the Land Raider Terminus Ultra and possibly some Chapter specific kits, that were sold when Primaris Astartes were introduced are still being sold, except those named characters who have crossed the Rubicon Primaris.

 

Now, is GW likely to update old classic Marine kits with new sculpts? I doubt it personally, but GW has done surprising things before. I don't think the current kits are going anywhere for a while though - they were done with the already improved plastics technology, and those molds will likely last longer, and GW will probably keep producing them as long as the mold stays good.

 

It didn't appear that any of the kits were gone from the upcoming Space Marines Codex either, based on what could be made out from the blurry Table of Contents.

 

GW has even given folks that don't want to use Primaris an out in the lore - none of the Chapters except those of the Ultima Founding have ever been said to be 100% Primaris, not even the Ultramarines. You can always use classic Astartes to represent that section of forces, and even create lore appropriate stories about a Company simply refusing new recruits from the Primaris line.

 

At some point in the future, if all classic Astartes are in fact relegated to Legends, you'll still have a choice to use them - if your small sub-section of the greater overall community refuses to do so, that's on them, not GW or you. They aren't for the coming future though - you've got at least as long as this initial Marine Codex is going to be good for - the writing is on what is most important regarding that - the paper rules. "The wall" doesn't mean anything as long as those rules are still there.

 

So far as I know, none of us is actually gifted with foresight or foreknowledge of what is going to happen in the Marine range, so we have to go with what we actually know - that's that classic Marines aren't in Legends as of the coming 9th Ed Codex.

 

------------------

 

Now, can we move back to the original question of whether the increase in points for 9th is going to leave Legends units undercosted in comparison and lead them to being even more shunned? And whether this would lead to GW "pulling the plug" on Legends?

 

Personally I don't think Legends will be any more shunned by the tourney scene than they are now, nor for the more narrative side of things. I can't see GW "pulling the plug" on a PDF that requires minimal work for something that's only been around for a couple of years at most either.

[Robbienw]

I'm not being rude or getting offended over anything Ishagu, lets get not into these kind of claims because you don't like someone disputing your view.

 

I'm trying to explain the point of view of others, and why no one needs to conform to your view to be able to enjoy the hobby.

 

Everyone knows primaris are here to stay and accepted that years ago, we dont need to be told that

 

Disliking primaris (hate is way too strong, and is overcooking the issue) does not in any one bit affect my enjoyment of the hobby.  There a huge amount of hobby stuff I enjoy beyond the sphere of space marines in 40k.  Custodes, Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Titanicus, Necromunda, Aeronautica Imperialis, Battlefleet Gothic and of course most 30k stuff, i enjoy these things immensly.  It would be absurd to think otherwise.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Robbienw

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think you have quite a while in general, if they ever do legends for them. Classic Astartes aren't anywhere close to being small in strength for most chapters even up to the Plague Wars.

Whilst we're frozen at the Indomitus Crusade, the classic range makes no sense to go anywhere. GW seems to want to keep us there for the foreseeable future, at least through 9E and possibly beyond.

[Ishagu]

@Robbienw

 

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

 

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

[Robbienw]

@Robbienw

 

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

 

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

 

Its not rude, you clearly don't understand my view.

 

What's rude is you telling me i cant enjoy the hobby properly because i dislike primaris marines and some parts of the lore :lol:  I don't need to come to terms with anything in particular, and i am not hurting my enjoyment of the hobby by disliking any aspect of GW's work on it.  I find it baffling you cant see this.  

[WrathOfTheLion]

In my opinion, were they to move to legends or retire the firstborn range, it would have to be in a setting where Chapters have significantly fewer firstborn marines.

For context, even by the time of the Horus Heresy, there were still quite a few Terran legionnaires from the beginning of the Crusade before their respective primarchs were recovered.

Thus, any portent of doom for it would likely need to be accompanied by a further change in setting of Warhammer 40,000, possibly even a larger one than the 8e jump.