9th Edition and Legends

[Captain Idaho]

@Robbienw

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

I find it astonishing you dismiss everyone's position that doesn't agree with your own and call it rude if someone dismisses yours.

[Ishagu]

 

 

@Robbienw

 

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

 

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

Its not rude, you clearly don't understand my view.

 

What's rude is you telling me i cant enjoy the hobby properly because i dislike primaris marines and some parts of the lore :lol: I don't need to come to terms with anything in particular, and i am not hurting my enjoyment of the hobby by disliking any aspect of GW's work on it. I find it baffling you cant see this.

And where in my comment did I specifically say it applies to you?

 

You are projecting what I say onto yourself, which ironically makes me think it does apply to you.

[Ishagu]

 

@Robbienw

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

I find it astonishing you dismiss everyone's position that doesn't agree with your own and call it rude if someone dismisses yours.

I'm sorry, I don't really follow what you're accusing me of dismissing?

 

Do you disagree with me that if someone spends years of their hobby life hating a new range out of fears that it might replace their old one, it would negatively impact their enjoyment of the hobby?

 

I really don't understand how this is a controversial observation?

[Captain Idaho]

You dismiss someone's concern their models they've paid money for and invested time into is valid for not liking the introduction of a new line that makes said model collection obsolete.

 

And the fact you dismiss that concern yet claim your own opinion is dismissed is truly astonishing.

 

You don't have to agree or even understand. Just people lecture about moving on if you don't want people to disagree with you.

[Bryan Blaire]

Could y'all take your off-topic back and forth to PMs before the Mods come in and close down the topic for us all?

 

The OP didn't even ask about Primaris and classic Marines - yes, it got taken there quickly, but it wasn't in the actual topic.

[Captain Idaho]

Except the replacement of Classic models with Primaris is the logical next step of Legends.

[Robbienw]

 

 

@Robbienw

 

Accusing someone of lacking understanding of simple concepts is very much rude. I do in fact understand the points of view of others, and I don't have to agree with every aspect of them. Disagreement is not rude but the dismissal of someone is.

 

Some people do indeed have a strong dislike/hate for Primaris not because of faults with the range or rules, but because of the implication of it's existence. This is the one opinion that I personally find redundant because it has now been 3 years since the new range started to come out. People have to come to terms with this, and if they don't they are hurting their own enjoyment.

Its not rude, you clearly don't understand my view.

 

What's rude is you telling me i cant enjoy the hobby properly because i dislike primaris marines and some parts of the lore I don't need to come to terms with anything in particular, and i am not hurting my enjoyment of the hobby by disliking any aspect of GW's work on it. I find it baffling you cant see this.

And where in my comment did I specifically say it applies to you?

 

You are projecting what I say onto yourself, which ironically makes me think it does apply to you.

 

 

You did say it to me in your point 4 in one of your previous posts.  Regardless, if you are making a general statement about everyone in the hobby, then you are making a general statement to everyone.

 

I'm just telling you why you are wrong.  

[WrathOfTheLion]

The topic in particular is about legends in 9E. So any context on why you think they would or would not do so in 9E would be relevant, but I don't think whether you think that is the inevitable end result is relevant to the topic.

[Ishagu]

@Captain Idaho

 

No that's not what I'm doing at all. It is absolutely a valid concern, but it's up to us as hobbyists to decide how to proceed. Do you remain in the hobby or not?

 

-You can hate on the Primaris because they exist, reject them, and spend years fearing the worst until it ultimately damages your hobby enjoyment.

-Alternatively you can come to terms with them, and either invest in them or in another range. This removes the negative sentiment and any reasonable, potential future worries.

 

As I said, I don't think the old range is going into Legends any time soon but at the same time it is definitely a possibility that it will at some point in the future. If this bothers you there are things you can do about it that are more productive than simply having a negative sentiment.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Will Legend units be shunned? I think so. Just like vehicle design rules. Most people play "standard" and "official" which usually means if a tournament plays it, that means it's common usage and fair game.

[WrathOfTheLion]

To add, the point I made earlier in the context of 9E is that they will not move the classic range to legends without a setting change. The new codex has the classic line in it still, so obviously they will not be moved to legends then. Thus, for 9E, it can be concluded that the classic space marine line will remain.
​
The only things I think will be moved to legends are models that are currently out of production. The biggest casualties will be from Forge World, which has stopped production of quite a few models over the past few years.

[Bryan Blaire]

Except the replacement of Classic models with Primaris is the logical next step of Legends.

For you. For the future beyond 9th, maybe.

 

Except it hasn't happened. We know it's not happening for 9th - you can see the Table of Contents, albeit fuzzily, and from what can be seen, the classic Astartes stuff is there.

 

End of story, there's no more logic to it beyond that.

 

The topic is about 9th Edition and Legends - says so right on the tin. In 9th Edition, classic Marines aren't in Legends.

[Robbienw]

Or alternatively, you can also continue disliking the primaris, whilst still knowing they are here to stay in 40k, and continue collecting and enjoying the entire rest of the hobby without any detriment to your hobby enjoyment whatsoever

 

Everyone knows they are here to stay, that has long since been accepted.  Expecting people to suddenly start spontaneously liking them is absurd.  Most of us can deal with not liking aspects of any of our hobbies without it affecting our enjoyment

Edited August 6, 2020 by Robbienw

[chapter master 454]

Grav more practical? not even going to humour that with more than "you can't tow a grav tank"

 

However, I shall endeavour to move this to a new thread. Keep your eyes peeled for surely I have nothing better than to lament. My mood is poor but my mind most certainly sharp and clear. I shall await the banter and debate to be hate relating to the most contentious matter in 40k since "magnus did nothing wrong".

[Captain Idaho]

There are classic units in Legends.

 

I don't agree with you, BB. Classic Marines have moved to Legends status, most notably with several characters who have been turned into Primaris, hence how we got into this discussion.

 

So the relevance of 9th edition and Legends is broad.

[PeteySödes]

=][=  In the interest of positive discussion lets take an hour or so off from the classic/primaris aspect of this and stick to whats in legends now and what that means. We can resume the Primaris thing again once cooler heads take hold. Thanks brothers.  =][=

 

I for one hope that people will continue to to be cool and allow these regardless of the tourny meta. I think its something like 3/5 of my last few projects went legends or are in a weird FW limbo.

Edited August 6, 2020 by PeteySödes

[brother_b]

Point taken.

 

I’ll just add this. I have a ton of BA classic and updated OG marines. I have absolutely no desire to complete or play the army because their special faction defining units are mostly old marines. So I’m spending my time on other armies and actually considering an all primaris non BA army for the first time ever.

 

We can’t argue ones feelings, we can acknowledge them though. I see both sides.

[Brother Tyler]

Just to remind everyone what the actual topic is...

 

So. Ive just had a thought. When Legends became a thing, GW said they wouldnt be rebalancing Legends models at any point. Theyd stay the same.

So far, so annoying.

 

But now theyve significantly increased points across the board, leaving Legends comparatively cheaper than they were. Which made me wonder how that will affect Legends. My gut feeling is that Legends will be even more shunned, with a similar stigma as the forgeworld models of yore. Which will make it a lot easier for GW to quietly pull the plug way sooner than everyone would have hoped...

 

Thoughts?

In essence, we have two factors that lead to the crux of what the discussion should be about:

• GW said that units in the Legends grouping would not be adjusted, affecting both rules and points.
• The transition from 8e to 9e includes a lot of points adjustments and some rules adjustments.

  and these lead to:

• Considering those 8e-to-9e changes and the allegedly immutable Legends rules/points, how are Legends units affected?

This isn't a discussion about the legacy vs. Primaris divide.

 

The discussion should be addressing things such as whether or not players are more/less likely to use Legends units; whether or not players are more/less likely to accede to their opponents using Legends units; etc.

[Captain Idaho]

On that note, I believe if GW simply allowed Legends in their tournaments, everyone would follow suit and thus they'd be accepted widely.

[KBA]

Will Legend units be shunned? I think so. Just like vehicle design rules. Most people play "standard" and "official" which usually means if a tournament plays it, that means it's common usage and fair game.

Call me naive, but I believe the Crusade rules/Narrative play GW is pushing HARD these days will end up going a long way to diminish the whole ‘tourney rules or leave’ that has been common practice for decades. If Crusade rules change the way we play and perceive the game, I could see Legends stuff being just fine for years.

[Captain Idaho]

If Crusade takes off. Which I'm not convinced it will. Here's hoping it does but perhaps a different subject.

[Arkhanist]

For the purposes of the original discussion, here's the original warhammer community post announcing Legends for 40k.

 

 

With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends. 

Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered.  

 

Every year, we review all of the points values (for all of the units) in Warhammer 40,000. We won’t be doing this for the Warhammer Legends, though. Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process. Of course, organisers are also free to run Legends events, allowing the use of the full classic range in their games.

 

So they do say that the Legends points won't be part of the annual chapter approved review process - but not that they won't ever be updated. indeed, if subtantial changes to rules and keywords happen, they will need to be fixed in order to be used "forever".

 

I'm sure I did in fact see something from GW that Legends units would get a revision if needed due to f.e.x. a new edition, but haven't been able to find it; it may have been a facebook post? Hopefully someone has a better memory than me!

 

The big addition to Legends lately of course has been the Chaplain dread, which was proving pretty popular on the tournament circuit for a bit, as well as competitive group gaming - it'll be interesting to see if such a popular unit (which has been OOP for several years now) makes people more, or less willing to accept Legends units.

[Gederas]

I for one hope that people will continue to to be cool and allow these regardless of the tourny meta. I think its something like 3/5 of my last few projects went legends or are in a weird FW limbo.

Same here Petey, my biggest worry about 9E and Legends isn't Firstborn. It's Forge World units.

 

I was recently (well, "recently", because I got it in March and thanks to Covid causing delays all across the world for shipping) able to snag an unbuilt Caestus Assault Ram and Chaplain Dreadnought.... But they're no longer in the Munitorum Field Manual (But the Mortis Dreadnought, which there are no weapons for, is still in there?)

 

Actually, my biggest worry about 9th Edition is just Forge World units in general. I love me my FW units, because they're fun to build and paint and just look awesome.

 

Also, my only comment on the Off-Topic stuff is this:

Could y'all take your off-topic back and forth to PMs before the Mods come in and close down the topic for us all?

Honestly, anyone else find it kind of hilarious that a Moderati Cedo is saying this when one of the people involved in the off-topic back and forth is a Moderati? (or that's what It seemed like?)

Edited August 6, 2020 by Gederas

[chapter master 454]

Legends is just where they want to put things to silently over time not bother with them. Could be interesting to see if they ever re-visit some legend units to bring them back for use in the main game when they get a chance, would help legends not feel so end of the line though as it stands: Its the graveyard for units. Whether it is an event horizon or not is to be seen.

[Wulf Vengis]

As to whether or not legends will remain viable is yet to be seen. GW has already stated that once a unit is in the legends book that's it. No more "official" thought will be given to balance, points or rules. It's done, it's out leave it at home.

 

However, i would not be surprised to see "legends tournaments" popping up as more and more units eventually fade into the legends book. So at least legends will still stay "sort of viable" in their own way.