The Chaos Space Marine Unit (Troop) in 9th

[Panzer]

I agree wtih Doom Herald. ObSec only comes into play if you want your unit to cuddle with your opponents unit. That usually means that either you were unable to kill your opponent's unit or that your opponent was unable to kill your unit. We all know how easily units get deleted in 40k. :sweat:

[Doom Herald]

Exactly my point, Panzer. Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, ObSec only matters if none of the units contesting your control of that objective have ObSec. Once you and your opponent each have 1 or more units with ObSec at the objective, you go back to just seeing who has the most models, not the most with ObSec. For me, Oblits have done a far superior job holding objectives.

 

Troops are a tax to make detachments without getting CP gouged now. CSM troops aren't great, with the possible exception of Creations of Bile, but for me the difference is that I can throw a long range heavy weapon on a CSM squad for relatively cheap and think of the rest of the unit as ablative wounds. Cultists are fodder and blobs, they can hold by virtue of sheer numbers and have their uses, but at that unit size it's going to get costly in terms of points. Some factions can make better uses of Cultists with their rules, but otherwise I feel like a CSM squad with Autocannon is the way to go, especially with a Primaris meta.

 

If I weren't playing Creations of Bile this edition, I would be very unhappy that I have to field either of these units with their increased points. There's plenty of units that are just plain and simple a better use of points. I really don't feel like ObSec makes up for that with either troop choice, but I do grudgingly accept that it's worth the CP if you can make them functional.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Doom Herald

[techsoldaten]

I understand holding objectives is more important in 9th, I'm just not sold that ObSec is REALLY going to help with that. I played with objectives in 8th and held several, but ObSec never came into play for me. For me, the question is not is holding objectives important but is rather: does ObSec actually help to hold objectives in any significant way in practice?

 

Like any mechanic, it's possible to optimize a list around this one.

 

Understand where I'm coming from. In 9th edition, CSM are at a disadvantage with shooting / durability of units. New multicharge rules mean our high-output melee units have fewer targets. With changes to the Supreme Command Detachment, we no longer have a way to load up on psykers.

 

If winning on muscle is hard, we're going to have to do it on points. That means claiming objectives and denying opponents. ObSec makes this a lot easier and some Legions can do this better than others.

 

Exactly my point, Panzer. Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, ObSec only matters if none of the units contesting your control of that objective have ObSec. Once you and your opponent each have 1 or more units with ObSec at the objective, you go back to just seeing who has the most models, not the most with ObSec. For me, Oblits have done a far superior job holding objectives.

 

This is all correct.

 

In addition, Black Legion have a Stratagem called World Killers. It cancels your opponent's ObSec, leaving yours intact.

 

Points are scored at the start of a turn. Let's say your opponent is holding an objective with 5 Intercessors at the end of turn 2. Start of turn 3, you move a single Cultist within 3" of the objective and use World Killers. You just stopped your opponent from scoring points for that objective.

 

Another scenario: your opponent moves 5 Intercessors on an objective to claim it. In your turn, you move 6 Raptors on that same objective and use World Killers. As long as you don't charge (potentially losing a model) you just stopped your opponent from scoring points for that objective.

 

In each scenario, your troops are going to get crushed, but your opponent loses victory points. And you're dictating your opponent's target priority, he will have to attack an otherwise useless unit to prevent you from scoring those points yourself.

 

While this isn't the traditional way to think about a game, I'm not seeing how shoot / smash lists are more effective under the current rules. In 9th, we're playing for victory points more than body count. One area where CSM have an advantage over other factions is claiming objectives and denying opponents the opportunity to do the same.

 

Even if you're not optimizing a list around the objective game, you shouldn't be dismissing it. I'm not sure CSM have a way to win consistently without focusing on this aspect.

 

Troops are a tax to make detachments without getting CP gouged now. CSM troops aren't great, with the possible exception of Creations of Bile, but for me the difference is that I can throw a long range heavy weapon on a CSM squad for relatively cheap and think of the rest of the unit as ablative wounds. Cultists are fodder and blobs, they can hold by virtue of sheer numbers and have their uses, but at that unit size it's going to get costly in terms of points. Some factions can make better uses of Cultists with their rules, but otherwise I feel like a CSM squad with Autocannon is the way to go, especially with a Primaris meta.

 

If I weren't playing Creations of Bile this edition, I would be very unhappy that I have to field either of these units with their increased points. There's plenty of units that are just plain and simple a better use of points. I really don't feel like ObSec makes up for that with either troop choice, but I do grudgingly accept that it's worth the CP if you can make them functional.

 

Everything depends on what you want from them.

 

A 5-man CSM squad looks bad if you are just concerned with offense. But if the goal is to have 1 model live to turn 3 to deny an objective, things change.

 

I've had to rethink my Black Legion gunline. Having a bunch of guns stand on the edge of the table and blow stuff up isn't a winning strategy anymore. If anything, mobile fire bases will be more important this edition.

 

So I'm probably taking concentrated mid-range guns that can move and shoot without penalty. Contemptors and Havocs are on my mind. Abaddon will be there for morale immunity and rerolls to hit, their job is to remove threats and clear paths to objectives.

 

The second is troops. Their job is to claim objectives. I am torn between CSM and Cultists for this purpose. Their overall durability doesn't matter, all I care about is whether a single model from most units can last until the 4th turn. More bodies is probably the answer b/c they can get morale immunity from Abaddon and blast weapons seem to be overrated.

 

The third part of the list is probably Raptors. Their job is to harass opponents backlines turn 3 and 4 and deny objectives. This fits with the rest of the list.

 

My strategy will be to build an early VP advantage that becomes overwhelming by late game. It doesn't matter if most of my units are destroyed. I'm betting most opponents will try to control the middle and a combination of objective clearing / denial tactics will keep them from scoring many victory points before the 4th turn.

 

This is similar to what I did with the Daemon Primarch list I was playing before the virus hit. 9th edition invalidates it, but the concept was similar. It had Morty, Magnus, Ahriman, Sorcerers on Disks, a Sicaran, and a Nurgle Detachment w/ Nurglings and Plaguebearers.

 

Opponents were tied up with the Daemon Primarchs the first three turns while the rest of my army claimed objectives. By the time they could move of of their deployment zone, they had to displace tough Nurgle units that had spread out all over the board. More often then not, I was ahead by 10+ points by the 4th turn. I got Supremacy more than once.

[Espresso]

I think that the CMS squads should come with Rhinos or be deployed via Strategic Reserves in order to press the objectives as soon as practicable.

 

Also the choice of the Secondary Objectives will be critical since they will indicate which loadouts should we be using. 

 

Said that the CSM are a fragile unit, especially in a Primaris-heavy local meta which puts a dent in their usefulness. 

 

I think that the "classic" 10 men squad, Plasma Gun, Autocannon and Combi-Plasma and with a sprinkling of Chainswords can be a good setup if used with Strategic Reserves or with a Rhino. 

[Panzer]

 

I understand holding objectives is more important in 9th, I'm just not sold that ObSec is REALLY going to help with that. I played with objectives in 8th and held several, but ObSec never came into play for me. For me, the question is not is holding objectives important but is rather: does ObSec actually help to hold objectives in any significant way in practice?

 

Like any mechanic, it's possible to optimize a list around this one.

 

Understand where I'm coming from. In 9th edition, CSM are at a disadvantage with shooting / durability of units. New multicharge rules mean our high-output melee units have fewer targets. With changes to the Supreme Command Detachment, we no longer have a way to load up on psykers.

 

If winning on muscle is hard, we're going to have to do it on points. That means claiming objectives and denying opponents. ObSec makes this a lot easier and some Legions can do this better than others.

 

Exactly my point, Panzer. Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, ObSec only matters if none of the units contesting your control of that objective have ObSec. Once you and your opponent each have 1 or more units with ObSec at the objective, you go back to just seeing who has the most models, not the most with ObSec. For me, Oblits have done a far superior job holding objectives.

 

This is all correct.

 

In addition, Black Legion have a Stratagem called World Killers. It cancels your opponent's ObSec, leaving yours intact.

 

Points are scored at the start of a turn. Let's say your opponent is holding an objective with 5 Intercessors at the end of turn 2. Start of turn 3, you move a single Cultist within 3" of the objective and use World Killers. You just stopped your opponent from scoring points for that objective.

 

Another scenario: your opponent moves 5 Intercessors on an objective to claim it. In your turn, you move 6 Raptors on that same objective and use World Killers. As long as you don't charge (potentially losing a model) you just stopped your opponent from scoring points for that objective.

 

In each scenario, your troops are going to get crushed, but your opponent loses victory points. And you're dictating your opponent's target priority, he will have to attack an otherwise useless unit to prevent you from scoring those points yourself.

 

While this isn't the traditional way to think about a game, I'm not seeing how shoot / smash lists are more effective under the current rules. In 9th, we're playing for victory points more than body count. One area where CSM have an advantage over other factions is claiming objectives and denying opponents the opportunity to do the same.

 

Even if you're not optimizing a list around the objective game, you shouldn't be dismissing it. I'm not sure CSM have a way to win consistently without focusing on this aspect.

 

Troops are a tax to make detachments without getting CP gouged now. CSM troops aren't great, with the possible exception of Creations of Bile, but for me the difference is that I can throw a long range heavy weapon on a CSM squad for relatively cheap and think of the rest of the unit as ablative wounds. Cultists are fodder and blobs, they can hold by virtue of sheer numbers and have their uses, but at that unit size it's going to get costly in terms of points. Some factions can make better uses of Cultists with their rules, but otherwise I feel like a CSM squad with Autocannon is the way to go, especially with a Primaris meta.

 

If I weren't playing Creations of Bile this edition, I would be very unhappy that I have to field either of these units with their increased points. There's plenty of units that are just plain and simple a better use of points. I really don't feel like ObSec makes up for that with either troop choice, but I do grudgingly accept that it's worth the CP if you can make them functional.

 

Everything depends on what you want from them.

 

A 5-man CSM squad looks bad if you are just concerned with offense. But if the goal is to have 1 model live to turn 3 to deny an objective, things change.

 

I've had to rethink my Black Legion gunline. Having a bunch of guns stand on the edge of the table and blow stuff up isn't a winning strategy anymore. If anything, mobile fire bases will be more important this edition.

 

So I'm probably taking concentrated mid-range guns that can move and shoot without penalty. Contemptors and Havocs are on my mind. Abaddon will be there for morale immunity and rerolls to hit, their job is to remove threats and clear paths to objectives.

 

The second is troops. Their job is to claim objectives. I am torn between CSM and Cultists for this purpose. Their overall durability doesn't matter, all I care about is whether a single model from most units can last until the 4th turn. More bodies is probably the answer b/c they can get morale immunity from Abaddon and blast weapons seem to be overrated.

 

The third part of the list is probably Raptors. Their job is to harass opponents backlines turn 3 and 4 and deny objectives. This fits with the rest of the list.

 

My strategy will be to build an early VP advantage that becomes overwhelming by late game. It doesn't matter if most of my units are destroyed. I'm betting most opponents will try to control the middle and a combination of objective clearing / denial tactics will keep them from scoring many victory points before the 4th turn.

 

This is similar to what I did with the Daemon Primarch list I was playing before the virus hit. 9th edition invalidates it, but the concept was similar. It had Morty, Magnus, Ahriman, Sorcerers on Disks, a Sicaran, and a Nurgle Detachment w/ Nurglings and Plaguebearers.

 

Opponents were tied up with the Daemon Primarchs the first three turns while the rest of my army claimed objectives. By the time they could move of of their deployment zone, they had to displace tough Nurgle units that had spread out all over the board. More often then not, I was ahead by 10+ points by the 4th turn. I got Supremacy more than once.

 

 

You assume that we are unable to kill enemy units to prevent them from scoring though. If that's the case then you are going to lose the game anyway because your army becomes smaller a lot faster.

You are technically correct with how ObSec could help, however I don't think your expectations of how the game will go are quite realistic. The theory of ObSec never changed. You aren't telling anyone anything new here. Just like with morale, it just never really worked that well compared to simply killing the unit in question.

[MegaVolt87]

So, basically we are in a race to sweep the enemy troops before they do the same to us so we can win on objectives with our weaker ones. Going top heavy to do it with death stars etc is a return to form for CSM.

[Captain Incompetence]

I think that the CMS squads should come with Rhinos or be deployed via Strategic Reserves in order to press the objectives as soon as practicable.

 

Also the choice of the Secondary Objectives will be critical since they will indicate which loadouts should we be using. 

 

Said that the CSM are a fragile unit, especially in a Primaris-heavy local meta which puts a dent in their usefulness. 

 

I think that the "classic" 10 men squad, Plasma Gun, Autocannon and Combi-Plasma and with a sprinkling of Chainswords can be a good setup if used with Strategic Reserves or with a Rhino. 

 

I didn't actually consider using Rhino's that much yet, but using them to transport CSM troops might not be the worst idea's. It gives them more mobility and survivability so they can more easily get on the objectives. A surviving Rhino could also be used to get linebreaker points or tie up an enemy squad from blowing our guys off the objectives. However, a fully kitted CSM squad inside a Rhino will be costing us 245 points if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure we'll be getting enough bang for our buck with that. It would be nice to be able to see transports used more often.

 

[Doom Herald]

@ techsoldaten,

A large part of what you said was that Black Legion and fast units will score objectives and little of it had to do with ObSec on our troops. I could see ObSec playing a more significant role in BL armies where shutting off your opponent's ObSec is an option, but for must CSM armies it won't be. Also, unless that strat applies to all of your opponent's units across the board, it only helps you claim 1 objective per turn.

 

There's just something that feels wrong to me playing with the assumption that you can't kill your opponent's models and you need to just let yours die to win VP. In practice, if I drop enough Slaanesh Oblits on an objective, no one is taking it without heavy losses and giving them a lot of attention. If a CSM squad is going to hold an objective, they are going to be shot down with range power before ObSec has a chance to matter and if not, they aren't going to last too long after the first round. Objective scoring now happens in Command Phase if I'm not mistaken, meaning that your opponent has a pretty solid chance to shoot your unit off of that objective and/or use their deepstrike and melee units to kill your CSM and set themselves up to take the objective. If ObSec is going to matter in any meaningful way that I can see, it would be max-size cultist blobs not CSM.

 

There are ways to optimize any mechanic for benefit, but I feel like comparing it to morale was not an entirely unreasonable example, but not a positive one. Morale/Ld in 8th could work and work devastatingly, but basicly only with Night Lords (usually using Flayer) and armies that splashed Daemons in for Cacaphonic Choir and/or Treason of Tzeentch. Not everyone could make it work and even when it did work, there were often other things that did more work more easily but having both work together was a serious boon. I could see Obsec being a small tool, especially for BL, but I would see it more relevant to cultist blobs holding an objective long enough for a stronger unit to counter-charge or counter-deepstrike. I don't think a 10-man marine squad could do this in the same way. Since in this thread CSM squads are the focus, I feel comfortable saying ObSec basicly contributes nothing to them.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Doom Herald

[techsoldaten]

First off, thanks for the feedback everybody.

 

Still working out what works and what doesn't in 9th. This helps.

 

You assume that we are unable to kill enemy units to prevent them from scoring though. If that's the case then you are going to lose the game anyway because your army becomes smaller a lot faster.

You are technically correct with how ObSec could help, however I don't think your expectations of how the game will go are quite realistic. The theory of ObSec never changed. You aren't telling anyone anything new here. Just like with morale, it just never really worked that well compared to simply killing the unit in question.

 

I'm just saying optimize around ObSec and denial tactics.

 

I don't assume we can't kill enemy units. I just see many factions have better shooting, we don't have an advantage in this area.
 

Getting a single CSM within 3" of an objective and using a Stratagem might be a more reliable way to hold / deny VPs, at least for Black Legion.

 

So, basically we are in a race to sweep the enemy troops before they do the same to us so we can win on objectives with our weaker ones. Going top heavy to do it with death stars etc is a return to form for CSM.

 

I wouldn't call it a race. Realistically, 3rd and 4th turns are where you could start denying.

 

The goal is to be ahead 10+ VPs by turn 5.

 

@ techsoldaten,
A large part of what you said was that Black Legion and fast units will score objectives and little of it had to do with ObSec on our troops. I could see ObSec playing a more significant role in BL armies where shutting off your opponent's ObSec is an option, but for must CSM armies it won't be. Also, unless that strat applies to all of your opponent's units across the board, it only helps you claim 1 objective per turn.

World Killers turns off ObSec for every unit in your opponent's army.

 

The Stratagem is specific to Black Legion. I'd like to hear thoughts on how what other Legions could do.

 

There's just something that feels wrong to me playing with the assumption that you can't kill your opponent's models and you need to just let yours die to win VP. In practice, if I drop enough Slaanesh Oblits on an objective, no one is taking it without heavy losses and giving them a lot of attention. If a CSM squad is going to hold an objective, they are going to be shot down with range power before ObSec has a chance to matter and if not, they aren't going to last too long after the first round. Objective scoring now happens in Command Phase if I'm not mistaken, meaning that your opponent has a pretty solid chance to shoot your unit off of that objective and/or use their deepstrike and melee units to kill your CSM and set themselves up to take the objective. If ObSec is going to matter in any meaningful way that I can see, it would be max-size cultist blobs not CSM.

 

Nothing stopping you from shoot and smash lists. But NuMarines win most matchups versus CSM.

 

I've been talking about the death of TAAC lists for a while. It's hard for CSMs to compete when line troops have extra wounds, range and AP for a few more points. Then there's Repulsors which are very points efficient for what they can do, have had some horror show games against them.

 

I see we could have an advantage with grabbing / denying objectives. Being able to turn off ObSec is pretty important. Any army could take a patrol detachment of Black Legion Cultists and get access to the Stratagem. For example, using Alpha Legion for the firebase could make it more durable.

 

With your example of a CSM squad getting shot up before it can score - sure, could happen. But that's a one-on-one match up, not the same as tailoring a list to support this style of play.

 

Since in this thread CSM squads are the focus, I feel comfortable saying ObSec basicly contributes nothing to them.

Disagree.

[Doom Herald]

Time will tell. Until then, it's all just discussion and hypothesis on everyone's part. There's just something in me that has an aversion to Black Legion, so it's not something I will personally try. I don't mean to say that it shouldn't be explored, after all I made my 8th edition experience half about getting Ld debuffs to work (with a fair amount of success despite naysayers), I only mean to share what it looks like from my angle. If the BL strat just shuts down all enemy ObSec, that might make Obsec substantial for BL, even from my view. One of the nice things about current CSM is that we do have several different ways our <LEGION>s can play.

[Espresso]

All things considering it is quite clear that 20 cultists are a better investment than 10 CSM. With the rework of the morale phase they last a bit longer and are not such a drain on our limited resources and with a simple stratagem one of those squads can come back. 

 

The CSM as a unit struggle to do what a troop choice is supposed to do. They cannot survive long on their own, even in cover. They do have trouble shifting a unit from an objective (the CSM simply have no output of reliable damage) and are rarely the recipient for spells or stratagems which limits their usefulness. If we add to that being the only PA infantry with problems in the morale phase and a low standing power, well the picture is grim. 

 

Maybe in the 9th we could introduce in the meta a Rhino MSU spam which has some merit in an objective focused game. Maybe we could use the MSU in our backfield as a harassing option or we can deploy a 20 men squad with Strategic Reserves in the middle of the field to act as a form of anvil. Either way, we can use the CSM, but overall we are best served with units of Cultists. 

[techsoldaten]

All things considering it is quite clear that 20 cultists are a better investment than 10 CSM. With the rework of the morale phase they last a bit longer and are not such a drain on our limited resources and with a simple stratagem one of those squads can come back. 

 

The CSM as a unit struggle to do what a troop choice is supposed to do. They cannot survive long on their own, even in cover. They do have trouble shifting a unit from an objective (the CSM simply have no output of reliable damage) and are rarely the recipient for spells or stratagems which limits their usefulness. If we add to that being the only PA infantry with problems in the morale phase and a low standing power, well the picture is grim. 

 

Maybe in the 9th we could introduce in the meta a Rhino MSU spam which has some merit in an objective focused game. Maybe we could use the MSU in our backfield as a harassing option or we can deploy a 20 men squad with Strategic Reserves in the middle of the field to act as a form of anvil. Either way, we can use the CSM, but overall we are best served with units of Cultists. 

No offense, but here's what confuses me about that perspective.

 

What job are troops supposed to do? Like, in general, what is the purpose of a troop choice?

 

If I'm looking at Guardians, they mostly screen. Can't think of a time they did more than a couple wounds to anything on my side before getting destroyed.

 

If I'm looking at Guard Infantry, they mostly form gunlines and take Orders. I think of them as ablative wounds for armor columns.

 

If I'm looking at Boys, they mostly mob up and charge. They're one of the few troops that presents a legitimate threat.

 

If I'm looking at Primaris, they can legitimately shoot and fight. But it's not really a fair comparison because of the statlines. Same with Strikes, the combination of psychic / shooting / melee puts them in some other class that doesn't represent "troop."

 

This is to say no general purpose exists for troops. Each faction has them, they play pretty specific roles, and many factions see them as a tax.

 

For CSM, I've always thought their strength is their versatility. In my Black Legion gunline, I took 3 squads of 10 with 2 lascannons and sat them on a table edge for long-range firepower. In another, I used them for screening, they had to live to the third turn to keep deepstrikers out of my backfield. Never build this list, but thought about taking chainsword CSMs. When we were still all on 8th ed Indexes, they were the most points-efficient PA troop choice for melee.

 

I get your points about durability, they're not meant to last forever. And I get your points about morale, they're not fearless.

 

But I wouldn't say, generally, Cultists are a better option. They do 2 jobs: screen and mob up. They're less durable, they can only carry mid-range / melee weapons, and they have worse morale. The only real advantages are the number of wounds and the number of attacks, both of which are mitigated by the 5+ save.

 

For the points, are 2.3 Cultists really worth 1 CSM? I'd say the answer depends on what job they're there to do.

 

If you are just filling a slot in a detachment, Cultists probably are the better option. If the unit is there to do a job, the answer is usually more complex.

[Espresso]

We cannot compare the CSM with the Primaris but we can compare them with the Sisters of Battle. I have seen those nuns tarpit my knights, survive entire rounds of shooting and pour a torrent of mid-range fire that was quite daunting to walk into. And all this for a cheaper price tag, more army wide rules and bonuses as well as a better synergy with their HQ elements. 

 

In the CSM codex the unit of marines is supposed to be a hard core to the entire army. A tough unit which can move in, shoot well at a 12''-24'' mark and when needed contest with an enemy unit in melee and being Chaos one can hope to have some bite in close combat. 

 

But that was ages ago. With the current situation being marines does not mean what it meant in those past days. Currently the CSM is a "legacy" unit which struggles to be flexible and fill the role it was meant for. For example a Tactical Squad of SM does that better. Sure it is squishier than its Primaris equivalent but still it has access to good stratagems, HQ support and combat doctrines to allow it to play this "flexible" role it was always meant to play. 

 

A 10 men CSM with two long range weapons is not an optimal choice since due to its morale problems runs away and in the 9th this tests will be painful for us. 

 

A 5 men CSM MSU has neither the killing power nor the staying power to stay on an objective. Loading on plasma can help with that but we pay premium points for this and we are getting into prohibitive costs here (for what we get out of it).

 

A 5 men CSM MSU naked in a Rhino can be a solid core. Tough, mobile and can play the objectives game, but as soon as something proper targets it the unit gets destroyed. 

 

A 10 men CSM on foot simply dies. There is no way around it. It is too fragile to move it across the field. 

 

So to recap. The role of the CSM squad is to be a tough infantry unit which can tackle with most units and if not survive, at least keep the enemy in place until the proper hitter come to play. As it is, the current iteration of the CSM unit proves either too expensive, too fragile or too slow to work in this role and thus the humble Cultist squad is the better alternative. At least we have an "expendable" unit that is cost-effective for what it does... being expendable. So that is that.

 

I love my CSM squads, especially the new sculpts. It is what drove me to collect Chaos since the halcyon days of 3.5, but I cannot make them work, not in my Primaris heavy local meta and the xenos just murder death kill my poor veterans of the Long War. 

 

I would always include a squad in a Rhino (more for fluff sake) and fill the other slots with Cultists. But until I have experimented with Strategic Reserves I remain unconvinced on the CSM role in the new edition. 

 

On spot, Autocannons on them are good, so are Plasma Guns, but those things cost, a lot nowadays, and they rarely kill their worth in points. Alas my CSM tend to run first... them cowards. 

[techsoldaten]

What legion do you play?

[Espresso]

What legion do you play?

 

I have begun the 8th playing the Night Lords and it went for some time until I tired of constant wipeout due to Guard/Primaris/Necrons induced death. 

 

Since Vigilus Book 2 I have been playing mostly Black Legion until Faith&Fury arrived and I dabbled a little with the various legions until lockdown. 

 

For the 9th I will begin playing with a Black Legion list but I also have to see how my other Chaos performs, namely Chaos Knights and Thousand Sons. 

[DiscipleOfTheWord]

All things considering it is quite clear that 20 cultists are a better investment than 10 CSM. With the rework of the morale phase they last a bit longer and are not such a drain on our limited resources and with a simple stratagem one of those squads can come back. 

 

I'm aware that the superiority of cultists over CSM is long established in the chaos community, but with the points increases I'm no longer so sure. If a unit of 10 intercessors are rapid firing into a CSM squad sitting on an objective, they will on average kill 3.33 models, or 46.67 points. Even if you are unlucky and fail morale, you will still generally have at least 1 ObSec model left on the objective (assuming you are taking 5 man units). By contrast, 10 Intercessors firing into a cultist squad will on average kill 8.89 models, or 53.33 points. Unless you are lucky you will then fail morale and lose the last model in the 10 man squad, leaving you with no models on the objective.  

 

Both the 10 cultists and the 5 CSM will deal the same amount of damage (1.11 wounds) in return to the intercessors, so their offensive capability is identical. Taking an autocannon boosts that to 1.78 wounds if you want to go that route, or a plasma gun squad will do 1.63 (2.74 when overcharging). Personally I will probably just use bolters though so that I can perform actions like siphon power, raise the banners etc without wasting points. 

 

Unlike the cultists, the CSM also benefit from legion traits. Whilst these are generally mediocre, many of them have at least some utility for holding objectives - Alpha Legion is clearly the best, but Iron Warriors, The Purge and The Scourged can potentially improve your damage output, and both Black Legion and Word Bearers marginally improve your staying power. Red Corsairs doesn't directly help at objective camping but is still a strong incentive to take CSM. Your damage output compared to cultists can also be improved by the ability to rapid fire at 24" if you haven't moved. 

 

So, in conclusion, although 5 CSM are 10 points more than 10 cultists, and have generally the same damage output, they are superior at holding objectives, benefit from legion traits, are customisable (generally with an autocannon or plasma gun), situationally have superior damage output, and also have great models that look cool on the table. They are still a terrible unit overall, but if you have to fill your troops tax I would say that despite the conventional wisdom, they are a better option than cultists. 

[Doom Herald]

When I was playing 8th, I found it beneficial to run 5-man squads of CSM. The smaller footprint meant it was easier for them to avoid firepower than my cultist units. Both ultimately did very little offensively, I didn't get to implement my autocannons due to the shut down. Basicly while the rest of my army was deepstrikers and fast units on the other half of the board causing havoc, my troops were relatively ignored after the first round or two and were free to take objectives. The cultists always died with the exception of once leaving literally one cultist, who objective camped from cover like a god. As objective holders, I think a small footprint is important and 5 CSM will do that better I think, especially with new coherency rules.

[nanosquid]

The issue we are still running into, just because of the core rules of the game, is that CSM are glass cannons when they are meant to be more like generalists. In the era of save rolls being modified, a 3+ with no invulnerable is just never going to provide meaningful protection when you have a single wound. Cultists can swarm an objective, but they're sand in an hourglass. They WILL all die eventually, as it's impossible to keep them out of range or out of LoS of enemies. CSM are able to pump out some serious hate, but they'll fold quickly under sustained fire.

 

30 cultists are 180 points. 10csm with 2 chaincannons are 180 points. Neither option is very good. Fingers crossed for the codex.

[Captain Incompetence]

Well, I would be surprised if we get a new codex this year. With the Space Marines and Necrons codex only coming in october and a bunch of the new units being teased are Deathguard, Admech, Sisters and Orks, I'm going to assume they'll be the first armies to get a codex afterwards. This leaves us with the crappy stats and rules for a while. So how do we go about making the most out of our terrible troop choices?

I'm currently looking into a minimum of 2 5-man squads with autocannons for some deepstrike denial, plinking a wound here or there and grabbing an objective for a turn or two. They won't last, but for 80 points each, it's not the worst investment I can think of.

Another idea I had was to run a barebones 10 man CSM squad with a the Icon of Vengeance for morale purposes. They can probably stick around on an objective for atleast 2 turns before they get wiped and won't really need support from any HQ either.

I'm also considering getting a rhino with 2 plasma suicide squads. Driving up the board, exiting the vehicle, lighting up whatever is on the point and then hopefully getting on the objective for a turn. It's a bit of a gamble and definitely not the cheapest, but it does bring some firepower and 10 bodies with obsec. The rhino can also be used to block LOS to them, though I'm worried it'll draw a lot of firepower and won't make it to it's destination.

I also think I'll try running a 30 man cultist blob alongside my marines. They'll just rush forward and draw some firepower away from my other troops. Maybe they'll actually stick around for long enough that the distraction they cause is worth the pointcost?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

In every 9th ed batrep I've seen, the opponent just deletes Cultists with ease. In one case, I saw fearless 2 IW 30 man cultist blobs actually deployed next to a 5 man Marine squad and the latter lasted far longer because they were easier to hide, could get 2+ saves in cover, and the 5 man squad didn't become an objective in and of itself. What I mean by that is that some players see lots of Cultists and just go "Sweet! Thin Their Ranks for easy points!" (whether or not it's actually easier than another option) and blow them off the table or charge them to get free movement against something less likely to kill them in return because Overwatch costs CP now.....which is what the opponent in the above matchup did. It was Craftworld Eldar spamming Missile Launchers, 3x Dire Avengers in 3 Falcons, and a Wave Serpent full of Banshees backed by a Seer Council on bikes.

 

IW went first, Cultists surged out onto objectives......and promptly got hamburgered by blasts and shuriken and finished by a Banshee/Seer charge. All 60 just gone by Turn 2 and the Eldar ended up with the objectives. To the Irons' credit, Obliterators, Chaincannon Havocs, Rapier Batteries, and some other heavier units actually made a game of it before losing, but they never came off the back foot after the Eldar shredded the Cultists so trivially and took those objectives.

 

Watching an entire unit of  Eldar War Walkers with dual Missile Launchers tear into the Cultists was pretty horrifying even without Guide. The 3 Falcons and the WS all had ML's too. Where blast weapons are going to shine are with small ones fielded en-masse by entire units or many units that can be pointed at the same target. The big ones that serve as tank main guns or artillery platforms are not the ones to truly fear. Harlequin bikes are going to be a similar menace, as will spammed mortars from IG or even a 10 man unit of Death guard with Blight Bombardment/Generosity.

 

Genestealer Cults are having similar problems keeping large T3 infantry formations alive. I watched one 9th ed batrep where Sisters all but tabled them by Turn 4, and that was with Conflagration Missiles drastically underperforming due to bad luck. The Sisters just took mid table, drowned them in bolter shots, and when ambushing units charged in, they traded hard with them in combat due to Bloody Rose and the shoot/fight on death Rite, and then buried them in more close range fire followed by a countercharge from hard hitters like Repentia.

 

Grenades actually took a particular toll when multiple Sisters characters/small squads focused on a single large GSC unit. 

 

It seems so far that star units in 9th can move in, weaken an opponent with close range fire, and then wipe them with a charge to secure position on an objective, then hunker down in cover to at least bleed or stall someone else who comes to do the same. CSM can do that with the right loadouts and careful play. Cultists, not so much.

 

Cultists CAN serve as an ablative screen for a vital unit, run off in small groups to do actions, or hold rear objectives. They're just not good at the "blood and guts" stuff in the middle any more because there are more ways now to make "number of bodies" matter a lot less in that area IMO.

Edited July 27, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Relic]

For the moment I think I have settled on the 5 man bare bones CSM squads to fill troop tax and let other units do the heavy lifting. The smaller footprint argument makes sense to me and well, it is nice to have a few standard CSM in an army called CSM!

[Verbal Underbelly]

I think ObSec is going to be a lot more relevant in 9th edition. I'm currently building a firebase of 10 CSM (Emperor's Children) as a home objective camper. The points drop on heavy weapons is favourable so I'm going with two missile launchers for flexibility. I haven't played it yet but I'm hoping it will be a decent firebase plus having a larger squad will make VotLW strat better value, having +1 to wound on the humble bolter might make deep strikers think twice.

 

Actually I feel like VotLW on the above squad reminds me of Fury of the Legion which feels very fluffy.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Verbal Underbelly

[Captain Incompetence]

I don't think CSM are a good unit to use VoTLW on in general though. The standard bolter is just kind of terrible because it doesn't have any AP on it. I've only really found them to be semi-effective against low armor save models, which tend to be T3 for the most part so you're already wounding on 3's. Better to use the stratagem on a unit that actually has the damage output and AP to fully utilize those extra wound rolls like Havocs, Obliterators, in some cases Terminators etc.

[Doom Herald]

Creations of Bile CSM did great for me in my game earlier this week. S5 and 7" movement was excellent. Macrotensile Sinews also added a great deal of mobility to where I could see ObSec actually being relevant to them for denial to your opponent. 7" move + (1d6+1)" advance + (2d6+1)" charge for an average of 19" they can move in 1 turn (without warptime) to get close enough to an objective to block your opponent taking the objective using ObSec or even just model count for only 1CP. Then, they are S5 and I add a powerfist for the champion (S9) for more damage. This might even be a way to use all those chainsword CSM that the Start Collecting forces on you. Round it out with the +1T from Bile (which can be guaranteed with his assistant) and/or the Dermal Chitination strat (also +1T) to help them survive to get where they're going.

 

When I first decided to try this, I thought it would just be that my CSM were good enough to not feel like a tax. Now that I've played with them though, I honestly think I will have more units of them and at larger sizes. 10-man Slaaneah squads with 2 autocannons and 10 man squads with powerfist champs and chainsword maybe even with an assault weapon if the points are there.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

For my basic CSM the 5 man MSU's and a smattering of Cultists are how they will go.

 

Both for my Irons and Night Lords. It will be the bare minimum points in troop slots needed + filling the rest with of the list with elites/heavies for Irons, and Fasts/terminators in Night Lords.

 

Rhinos I think will feature with us. I have a feeling they will be important given our troops limited capacity for survival.

 

Given we know for a fact that Night Lords are getting reworked I think that down the road we will expect some degree of multi-tiered tactics such as our current opposition has. That will probably be the standard across the board moving forward.

How do we know NL are getting a rework?

 

 

IDK if anyone addressed it, I didn't read the entire thread sorry for the late response! 

 

In one of the Warhammer streams they brought up armies with bad or useless tactics "Ones that don't function on the table" are getting reworked and "Night Lords" were specifically mentioned as one such tactic. 

 

My guess: itll become 2 pronged, the Ld thing will be one part, with an additional added portion to complete it and make it in line with the newer tactics which are, across the board, 2 pronged.