9th edition top level strategy

[templargdt]

Frater-

 

Looking over the leaks of the missions, I've been thinking about wave top level strategy.  Overall, it seems like the missions reward MSU army design that can get on more objectives, conduct more actions like raising banners without sacrificing too much firepower, etc.  The only counter seems to be the kill more secondary, but that overall seems like a minor weakness.  

 

Interested in hearing other opinions, but I think my initial lists will be MSU with a few five man Intercessors and a pair of Infiltrators to prevent back field drops.

[Riddlesworth]

I've played a couple of games with raise the banners.

 

To actually score decently off it, you sacrifice a lot in turn 1/2. Can be rough missing out on that much firepower. It feels like its better secondary for army's with dirt cheap choices who dont feel that much of a sacrifice not using them for a turn

[Lukoi]

With the heavy penalty going away for vehicle/walker shooting, that even minimizes some of the backside screening requirement. My entire Army generally moves around the board at this point, so where my rear is rotated with me. Zoning out the back edge isnt necessarily a thing anymore, especially since with only 5 turns available, what I've seen so far is that people are much less likely to delay deepstrikes until the. Lastly, DS and strategic reserve are more likely to be about seizing an objectively suddenly, and less about chasing an asset or character.

 

Obviously we are all in the middle of an extremely small sample size of available games to play (in person or on TTS), or observe via batreps, so it might be an off the mark observation on my part.

[Mandragola]

Yeah I looked at RTB and came to the same conclusion. You need 3 banners raised on turn 1 for it to pay out 15 points, and they need to stay raised all game.

 

There are some good characters for performing actions. Ancients (which is cool), apothecaries and maybe Judicators are good for doing this in the early game. They will have finished the action by the end of your turn so their auras will come back on in time to be relevant in the enemy turn. Chaplains will have already done their litanies before the action, so that's no problem. Techmarine gunners can raise a banner because it's not actually them firing the gun (technically...) so the TFC can still shoot. This actually seems like a good reason to bring a TFC - less for banners than for the various other actions he can do.

 

Raise the banners is not my favourite of the secondaries. It's worth having available for games against people like Tau or IG, who you expect to stay castled up, because your guys can carry on earning VPs after they've died. But I don't think you'll see a banner stay active for all that long after whoever planted it dies. Don't use this against hordes or assault armies, who will now have a double incentive to come at you.

 

If I wanted action-based secondaries I think I'd look at things like investigate sites and mental interrogation. These are pretty easy to do with phobos units and you're not sacrificing all that much to get there. A Phobos librarian should be pretty good at mental interrogation I think, though there is a danger of running out of enemy characters - or being killed by them. Maybe give him the armour indomitus.

 

It's well worth looking at the secondaries in the missions themselves. Many of them look easier to achieve than raising banners, I think. You can of course do both.

[Minsc]

Had 2 more games today (1500 pts, Salamanders vs. Tyranids and Thousand Sons vs. Tyranids), and now I'm starting to feel warmed up to how 9th is played.
It's quite different from 8th and I love it.

Being my 5th and 6th game in 9th respectively, I've started to learn the importance of "focus on the objective".

My opponent is still somewhat stuck in the 8th Ed. mentality of "kill kill KILL!", but he's coming around to 9th.

Both games ended very "un-8th-like", and despite my opponent losing quite big on VP's in both game, we both had a blast:
Game one ended with me having ~55 VP to his ~30, and me only having a Infiltrator Sergeant with 1 wound left(!), while he had ~1/3 of his army left.
Game two ended with me having ~70 VP to his ~40, and me only having an Exalted Sorcerer and 6 Tzaangors left, while he yet again, roughly 1/3 of his army left. 

Ultimately, we both felt like winners (me because I won VP-wise, he because he essentially wiped my army both games) and both had fun, and that's the important thing.

And yes, Raising the Banners can be a trap if you're not "ready" for it. Having an entire squad essentially standing around doing nothing for an entire turn might come back to bite you in the behind, and you might end up in a situation where that 1-2 VP simply wasn't worth not moving/shooting/attacking with said squad instead.
Solo model-units (especially if they don't really do anything on turn 1 anyway) like Judiciars are ideal for doing actions on turn one because they barely give up anything by doing it. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Minsc

[templargdt]

Had 2 more games today (1500 pts, Salamanders vs. Tyranids and Thousand Sons vs. Tyranids), and now I'm starting to feel warmed up to how 9th is played.

It's quite different from 8th and I love it.

 

Being my 5th and 6th game in 9th respectively, I've started to learn the importance of "focus on the objective".

My opponent is still somewhat stuck in the 8th Ed. mentality of "kill kill KILL!", but he's coming around to 9th.

 

Both games ended very "un-8th-like", and despite my opponent losing quite big on VP's in both game, we both had a blast:

Game one ended with me having ~55 VP to his ~30, and me only having a Infiltrator Sergeant with 1 wound left(!), while he had ~1/3 of his army left.

Game two ended with me having ~70 VP to his ~40, and me only having an Exalted Sorcerer and 6 Tzaangors left, while he yet again, roughly 1/3 of his army left. 

 

Ultimately, we both felt like winners (me because I won VP-wise, he because he essentially wiped my army both games) and both had fun, and that's the important thing.

 

And yes, Raising the Banners can be a trap if you're not "ready" for it. Having an entire squad essentially standing around doing nothing for an entire turn might come back to bite you in the behind, and you might end up in a situation where that 1-2 VP simply wasn't worth not moving/shooting/attacking with said squad instead.

Solo model-units (especially if they don't really do anything on turn 1 anyway) like Judiciars are ideal for doing actions on turn one because they barely give up anything by doing it. 

This is it for me. I have no opportunities to play currently, but it seems like Marines with cheap(ish) characters could start scoring progressive objectives immediately on multiple objectives with objectives in your deployment zone and ones in the center area of the table with our strong infiltration choices.  The banner raising was just one example.  We have Librarians in phobos armor that can infiltrate and start doing the psychic ritual one, etc.

 

Apothecaries, Ancients, techmarine gunners, etc. all obvious choices.  

Edited July 18, 2020 by templargdt

[Paulinus]

Just keep in mind that protecting characters is much harder in 9th. You will need decent protection or they’ll get targeted quick.

[chapter master 454]

Due to how reinforcements come in, I wonder if some of those shadow-op objectives may be a neat idea for cheap deep strikers. However I am personally quite partial to being a gimmick lord and trying for the Ritual nonsense.

 

One thing I am noticing quite heavily is that many of those objectives aren't likely to be capped out. Due to the hard limit of 5 turns, it really helps settle a clock and gives you the ability to set a schedule on what you are doing. Curious to see if any objectives rise to the top as good "staple" objectives and if any objectives possibly shape an armies build, such like the warlord slaying one and the psychic ritual.

Now...if I a see my opponent go for the ritual, get the relic of gathalamor and a culexus assassin and have them hang 10 on the centre board, cracking open some boys with the cold one :D

[Paulinus]

Due to how reinforcements come in, I wonder if some of those shadow-op objectives may be a neat idea for cheap deep strikers. However I am personally quite partial to being a gimmick lord and trying for the Ritual nonsense.

 

One thing I am noticing quite heavily is that many of those objectives aren't likely to be capped out. Due to the hard limit of 5 turns, it really helps settle a clock and gives you the ability to set a schedule on what you are doing. Curious to see if any objectives rise to the top as good "staple" objectives and if any objectives possibly shape an armies build, such like the warlord slaying one and the psychic ritual.

Now...if I a see my opponent go for the ritual, get the relic of gathalamor and a culexus assassin and have them hang 10 on the centre board, cracking open some boys with the cold one :D

Pretty sure that selecting relics is when you build your army now. So you can’t switch it or get unless it was planned in advance. The reliquary is cool and all but kind of sucks if you face a non psyker army. Or someone who decides not to take that secondary.

 

I played the ritual last week with two Psykers, my Phobos in the middle and Tigurius reinforcing on turn one out of an impulsor. Cast empiric channelling on Tiggy and your opponent will struggle to stop him from getting anything off. Otherwise the Phobos can cast with Tiggy as a backup.

[Riddlesworth]

I'm willing to try RTB again, but I'd run it on Retrieval, Vital Intel or Scorched earth only. And even then, dependent on my opponents deployment.

 

I've seen linebreaker max out frighteningly easy through drop pods. 4 VP turn 1. Even if you wipe the unit (grav devs), the drop pod isn't *that* easy to kill and your opponent o ly needs 1 fast unit then to score it turn 2. Or another pod. Even if you only do it over 3 turns, scoring 12 VP on some of the other secondaries is HARD (see: raise the banners)

 

I'm liking Engage on All Fronts as my go to, works in almost every mission and opponent. I've made the mistake of trying to score 3 VPs every turn with it and getting certain units out of position, but 10 consistent VPs is good and that's not that

 

Everything else is primary mission or enemy army dependent. As an msu army myself, I will veer away from attrition, for example

[Mandragola]

Linebreaker does look like it'll be easy for lots of people to score. Secondary points in the bag early on are great, especially when you don't have to do anything more than just be there. Loads of lists want to assault the enemy DZ anyway, so it's hardly a hardship for them.

 

I do think we'll want characters to actions for missions. The characters who are good at doing them are going to be at a bit of a premium I think. 

 

I'm trying to work out how important a Librarian is. If he denies a psychic action even once it can ruin an opponent's plan. Denying other stuff is useful too. I'm debating between the hitting power of some bladeguard vets and the utility of a Librarian, and I think the Libby wins it. Not sure which version to bring though.

[AenarIT]

I feel that most of the secondaries are army dependent, while a couple of them are just bad.

With my Tau list, for example, While We Stand We Fight on the three Riptides (or 2 Riptides + Commander) is a given every game.

With my RG list Linebreaker and Engage on all Fronts are very good, while the kill more one could be useful in certain matchups since I don’t play with that many units.

Other ones are obvious choices vs certain armies (the TITANIC one vs Knights and the anti-psyker one against GK and TSons).

 

That said, the whole set of secondaries is a bit unbalanced in my opinion. It will probably be one of the next changes among the core set of rules, based on whatever tournament results will come in over the next few months.

 

On the primary side, being able to consistently hold 2 is key to winning imho. That’s 10 points per turn, total of 40 points out of 45. Then it just takes one turn of hold more to max it.

Durable obsec units will be very good obviously. Intercessors are one of the best troops for this.

[Panzer]

Frater-

 

Looking over the leaks of the missions, I've been thinking about wave top level strategy.  Overall, it seems like the missions reward MSU army design that can get on more objectives, conduct more actions like raising banners without sacrificing too much firepower, etc.  The only counter seems to be the kill more secondary, but that overall seems like a minor weakness.  

 

Interested in hearing other opinions, but I think my initial lists will be MSU with a few five man Intercessors and a pair of Infiltrators to prevent back field drops.

 

On the other hand, you need your objective holding squad to survive through one whole turn since you score at the beginning of your turn now, so spreading out too much with just MSU can quickly backfire too.

[Mandragola]

I don't think the need to hold an objective for longer rules out MSU. You still have the same number of marines, just split up more. 2x5 intercessors hold an objective just as well as 1x10. They're arguably better, as an opponent might waste damage by overkilling a squad or fail a charge if they have to engage both units.

 

I think I'll be using combat squads quite a bit. It's not quite a useful ability if you want a lot of troops, because it gets you past the limit of 6 troops for a battalion. I actually think 30 troops could well be too few in this edition - I find myself aiming for 50+.

 

I could actually see myself taking units with mixed weapons now. The idea would be to take auto bolt rifles on 5, including a Sergeant with TH. The other 5 would get stalkers to sit on a back field objective. This might be nonsense though.

 

There is also the fun strat to make your guns count as pistols. It would be entertaining to use that on a squad of 10 guys with auto rifles, spitting out 40 shots within 12" (or in melee) as they can now fire "both" pistols.

[Lemondish]

I could actually see myself taking units with mixed weapons now. The idea would be to take auto bolt rifles on 5, including a Sergeant with TH. The other 5 would get stalkers to sit on a back field objective. This might be nonsense though.

If you mean to do this with a combat squad 10 man unit, then I'm sorry to say that only Deathwatch can mix the rifle types. All other Marines appear to have to swap the whole unit at once.

 

There is also the fun strat to make your guns count as pistols. It would be entertaining to use that on a squad of 10 guys with auto rifles, spitting out 40 shots within 12" (or in melee) as they can now fire "both" pistols.

I believe this is one of the cooler IF only strats, which plays even more into their bolter drill chapter tactic bonus as well. Could be wrong, but pretty sure this is IF only.

[Mandragola]

 

I could actually see myself taking units with mixed weapons now. The idea would be to take auto bolt rifles on 5, including a Sergeant with TH. The other 5 would get stalkers to sit on a back field objective. This might be nonsense though.

If you mean to do this with a combat squad 10 man unit, then I'm sorry to say that only Deathwatch can mix the rifle types. All other Marines appear to have to swap the whole unit at once.

 

There is also the fun strat to make your guns count as pistols. It would be entertaining to use that on a squad of 10 guys with auto rifles, spitting out 40 shots within 12" (or in melee) as they can now fire "both" pistols.

I believe this is one of the cooler IF only strats, which plays even more into their bolter drill chapter tactic bonus as well. Could be wrong, but pretty sure this is IF only.

 

 

Oh you're right, it says I have to swap the guns of every model, not some of them. I should have checked that, sorry.

 

And yes, the thing of using bolters as pistols is Fists only. You do get exploding 6s when you do it, which is great. In theory you don't have to be in melee to do it, so it's an option when you get to assault doctrine. I just realised this would have allowed you to have a vehicle fire its heavy bolters in melee in 8th edition too, though that never came up for me. Would have been fun with a Land Raider Promethius.

 

I've been vaguely considering making a Promethius. I've got 3 Land Raiders of various types that I could use and Pedro could ride around in it. Not sure who would go with him though. It's gone from the FW store though, and that makes me think it might not make it into the new indexes. A few things seem to have gone to legends from FW this edition.

 

On the subject of MSU vs not, I'd be interested in trying some bigger units of necron warriors. I think the trick for them might be to try and leave some out of sight so that it's hard for the enemy to wipe out squads. Necron buffs tend to improve individual units rather than everyone in range so I think bigger units could be quite effective.

[Riddlesworth]

 

I think I'll be using combat squads quite a bit. It's not quite a useful ability if you want a lot of troops, because it gets you past the limit of 6 troops for a battalion. I actually think 30 troops could well be too few in this edition - I find myself aiming for 50+.

.

I think given the price rises, there isn't really room in the marine book for units to just sit on objectives, so troops kinda need to pull their weight rather than be 30 bodies

 

I do see combat squads getting a lot more use, but out of the fast attack and heavy slots thanks to the limited squad size of the indomitus units

[HighMarshalAmp]

MSU is the way to go.

 

On a side note, Repair Teleport Homer appeals to me - note that it can be done by a Character right now.

 

But I always try and get the most out of a Captain and a few Storm Shield Company Vets anyway.

They used to be the wound soaks to keep my Smash Captain alive, but if you manage to get these units into the opponent's deployment zone, the Character can repair the homer while the Vets pull Shield Drone duty and make sure he ain't killed.

 

With board control being paramount now, that also forces your opponent to spread his forces across his backfield as well as the rest of the board.

However, if your opponent was to go for that secondary as welll, there's MSU again just to deny any DS.

[Lemondish]

While MSU may seem like the way to go, don't skimp on number of units. If all you're doing is using MSU as a reason to bring the bare minimum troops, then I'm not sure you're better off.

 

I've seen 5 man squads of obsec units get wiped off objectives with ease.

[Riddlesworth]

While MSU may seem like the way to go, don't skimp on number of units. If all you're doing is using MSU as a reason to bring the bare minimum troops, then I'm not sure you're better off.

I've seen 5 man squads of obsec units get wiped off objectives with ease.

At 2k I'm looking at 3 units of 5 incursors.

I could get 15 intercessors for 100 points.

Or I could get 2 invictor warsuits for pressure.

 

Its andilemma because if I i had the choice of opponent, I'd be shooting at the invictors every time

[Dracos]

I plan on using 25 Primaris troop Choices. 10 Infiltrator to black out middle board and 15 Intercessors as ObSec. Another 5 in the wings if points pan out. Going to need every bit of those to claim 4 out of 6 Objectives in some missions.

[tychobi]

I think the title of this thread is a tad misleading.

[Mandragola]

I think the title of this thread is a tad misleading.

I think the idea is it's for talking about the general approach to scoring objectives in 9th edition, not that any of us are necessarily high level players.

 

Anyhoo, I reckon 25 or 30 will be the minimum you want, but I do agree that Invictors look like they'll be excellent this edition. They were great before but now they can fire all those heavy weapons without a penalty for moving and while in melee, they're better still. The one area they suffer is with no longer knowing who's going first when they deploy. That's quite a big problem for them. Setting them up behind some obscuring terrain might make them safer but it'll reduce their threat range.

 

Overall still a top unit for seizing ground early on and putting pressure on the enemy.

[templargdt]

 

I think the title of this thread is a tad misleading.

I think the idea is it's for talking about the general approach to scoring objectives in 9th edition, not that any of us are necessarily high level players.

 

Anyhoo, I reckon 25 or 30 will be the minimum you want, but I do agree that Invictors look like they'll be excellent this edition. They were great before but now they can fire all those heavy weapons without a penalty for moving and while in melee, they're better still. The one area they suffer is with no longer knowing who's going first when they deploy. That's quite a big problem for them. Setting them up behind some obscuring terrain might make them safer but it'll reduce their threat range.

 

Overall still a top unit for seizing ground early on and putting pressure on the enemy.

 

I meant top level as in 'overall' not as in 'best players'.  Apologies for the confusion.