Maybe starting Crimson Fists

[adreal]

if I was to start crimson fists (if intercessors ever come back into stock) would I need to get the imperial fist supplement and what exactly would it give me?

[Mandragola]

You need the supplement. It has rules for your super doctrine, stratagems, relics and other stuff. Pedro Kantor is in there and he's probably the best thing about Crimson Fists.

 

It's a fun army. I've had them since the start of 8th. Very shooty and reasonably ok in melee thanks to Pedro's +1 attack aura.

[Halandaar]

As above, the supplement is pretty fundamental to getting the most out of Crimson Fists.

 

That said it does feel like a pretty bad time to be spending money on books given that a new edition is almost always accompanied by a new Space Marine Codex soon afterwards. I don't suppose they'll re-do all the supplements too, but at this point there really isn't any way to know whether the supplement will end up being a waste of money within a matter of months.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Halandaar

[Mandragola]

That's a good point. If you subscribe to the app (out on Friday) I think you get all the rules currently in print. That ought to include all the marine mini-dexes, plus all the Psychic Awakening rules.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Whirlwinds will absolutely chew through large hordes with the +1 BS against units that outnumber your units by five models (vehicles count as five models for this purpose) and blast. So against units with eleven or or more models a whirlwind will fire twelve shots a S6 at BS+2. This will absolutely chew through large units of Boyz, Chaos Cultists, conscripts and haunts.

[tvih]

In my experience Whirlwinds don't chew through anything at all. And now they're even pricier. Plus you're unlikely to run into big enough units to get that bonus anyway, even less so in 9th than 8th. As it stands 2D3 shots against 10 models won't be 6 shots, it'll be 3-6. Similarly 4D3 is still 3-12, because the minimum of 3 is per weapon, not per die.

 

Regardless, playing with CF tactics in a tournament I think I got the +1 to hit in one out of five battles, and even then only like twice in that battle. Ignoring cover like IF would've been far more useful.

 

Still, CF is a great color scheme and chapter, and outside of extremely competitive games the chapter tactic is still plenty good.

[Mandragola]

I've done pretty well with my Crimson Fists at tournaments. I agree that the +1 to hit thing doesn't apply all that often, but it's not the only bonus they get. If people aren't fielding lots of infantry they're often fielding vehicles, and that's good news for all Fists. That said, ignoring cover all the time is clearly better than occasionally getting +1 to hit, especially in this edition.

 

The thing that Crimson Fists have that Imperial Fists don't is Pedro Kantor. I rate him as one of the best marine special characters, certainly at his price point. He gives out full rerolls and +1 attack to units within 6". That has a major impact when you're talking about contesting the mid-board. He's not a hugely impressive fighter but his gun actually does stuff and he gets 7 power fist attacks on the charge, which isn't nothing.

 

But really he's about aggressors with 5 attacks each, exploding bolter shots and full rerolls, or big Intercessor squads clubbing people 40+ times. It makes life a lot more difficult for bad guys who want to come and beat you up.

[tvih]

I should definitely try out Kantor sometime. I haven't used him since 6th Edition. I suppose my main problem is his mobility and the limited aura range (but of course that's a problem for most buffers). I've considered an "Inceptor Bomb" list where I'd drop a LOT of Inceptors at once, with a jump pack chapter master for those sweet rerolls. Of course, the problem is I only have 6 inceptors. 18 of them would blow up a knight in one drop, with one squad using tank hunters and possibly the extra exploding 6s stratagem.

[Mandragola]

Pedro's aura got bigger, in effect, in the mini-dex. It used to just affect models within 6" but now it affects models in units within 6". This allows you to spread out a lot more, especially if you run big squads. His gun also does 2 damage now, and as an assault weapon he can happily advance without too much bother. He still hits big squads on a 2+, after all.

 

Inceptors are potentially great. I think the bolt gun guys are in kind of an odd spot compared to aggressors and outriders. Both fight better and I think outriders are a better option for taking objectives.

 

Plasma inceptors are a different story though. 50 points each is great value for these guys I think. I think it'll be valuable to have a unit that you can drop in from reserve without paying CP and these guys look pretty good for that role. In 8th I filled my fast attack slots with suppressors but I think they're a lot less good now. It doesn't really make sense to deep strike them when they'll have already lost the devastator doctrine bonus by the time they can arrive. Inceptors will be pretty glad to turn up in tactical doctrine and won't even mind assault.

 

Plasma Inceptors do kind of have to compete against Eradicators though. It's certainly compelling to have an option that isn't going to blow itself to bits when it fires, especially since there now exists terrain with a penalty to hit rolls. The cap on hit modifiers is kind of nice for plasma, but not nice enough to want to fire plasmaceptors with -2 to hit, ever.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Mandragola

[tvih]

The obvious problem with plasma Inceptors being that you MUST have that Captain or Pedro in range if you want to use supercharged shots. Not just nice to have, but actually must have. Otherwise you'd fry like two out of three of them on average every time to you fire. I do plan to test a small squad at some point - three of my six Inceptors are multipart and thus with plasma option - but with our CT the bolter version is already pretty darn good and doesn't need to worry about melting itself to slag.

 

Outriders are certainly a good choice too. No deep strike, extra wound, longer max movement but without flying for ignoring obstructions, and yeah, extra CC attacks (and the accompanying -1 AP of course). Also less ranged shots compared to bolter Inceptor, at -1 S. While being +5pts per model. It's not cut and dry either way, and I suppose most likely I'll simply be using both. But the new bike models do look a bit... impractical, visually.

[Mandragola]

I played three 1k point games this weekend using a variety of armies, including both halves of Indomitus. One thing we found was that it's now very common to have -1 to hit for some reason or other, as terrain very often imposes hit penalties. Terrain makes more difference now than ever.

 

I think this is gives us a  solid reason to bring bolter inceptors, probably ahead of either outriders or plasma inceptors. The plasma guys are in really big trouble if they get -1 to hit. They do of course have the option of just firing normally, and with an average of 4 shots each they're never all that much worse than normal bolter guys, but the cost is an issue.

 

Outriders were interesting in the game I played. They can fire 4 shots each at 30" and that's significant. It lets them shoot things like enemy heavy support units that your opponent won't expect. However, they can struggle with terrain and issues like being unable to go through breachable stuff - which there's a lot of. Overall I quite liked them but felt they had real weaknesses too. Terrain does a lot and they very rarely get the benefit. I also suffered because I charged a unit of hellblasters in a ruin - they overwatched hitting on 5s and did 10 wounds to my squad. Won't do that again!

 

So overall, Bolter intercessors look pretty decent. Lots of shots with a bunch of movement and the gravis stat line in defence. They can be in cover and can fly up on stuff if they want, which makes them pretty flexible to move around. They can advance, and that's cool because quite often you're shooting stuff where you're at -1 to hit anyway, so you lose nothing. Basically there's a lot of good stuff about these guys. We've also got quite a fun strat to turn their assault bolters into pistols if they get tied up in melee.

 

I'm glad to say I've got six of these guys in various stages of being painted. I expect they'll be fairly busy in 9th.

[yasarkasaba]

 

I think this is gives us a  solid reason to bring bolter inceptors, probably ahead of either outriders or plasma inceptors. The plasma guys are in really big trouble if they get -1 to hit. They do of course have the option of just firing normally, and with an average of 4 shots each they're never all that much worse than normal bolter guys, but the cost is an issue.

 

Btw if I recall right plasma weapons are kiling the user on unmodified rolls of 1 with the new rule set so "-" to hits aren't effecting them now.

Edited September 14, 2020 by yasarkasaba

[Mandragola]

 

 

I think this is gives us a  solid reason to bring bolter inceptors, probably ahead of either outriders or plasma inceptors. The plasma guys are in really big trouble if they get -1 to hit. They do of course have the option of just firing normally, and with an average of 4 shots each they're never all that much worse than normal bolter guys, but the cost is an issue.

 

Btw if I recall right plasma weapons are kiling the user on unmodified rolls of 1 with the new rule set so "-" to hits aren't effecting them now.

 

That'll be true in the new codex - a fact I obviously didn't know when I wrote that comment ~6 weeks ago!