Traditional Smash Captain vs -1CP cost to DS Idomitus Capt

[Lukoi]

So, the rule of cool has me in its brutal grip.  I'm probably not evaluating this completely rationally, so I've come for perspective.

 

A traditional smash captain (well, in my case using the burning blade, not TH) is what I currently use in my RG list.

 

The Indomitus Captain seems a few points cheaper to purchase, does not seem to be able to take a Jump pack, but that relic shield makes me believe his stat line might bring comparable or even better bang for the buck.

 

In the end, I bring in my captain from deepstrike (hence the 1CP cost for an Indom Captain), but they aren't doing a ton of 12" movement after they land -- they seize an objective with the rest of the DS package and by then, my main group is fairly close.  I figure it costs me about 1 turn of movement + advance to make up for the loss of a jump pack before I can use him again (that's all assuming he survives the landing round).

 

So, currently....Jump Captain lands (typically turn 2), kills an objective, and if surviving spends turn 3 getting into position for another launch in turn 4.  If I used the Indom Captain, I think that likely means he's not close enough till turn 5.  

 

In games where he's smashing back to back, it's either a route, or he dies in the melee. So by gapping it one turn, I don't feel like I'm losing much -- it's either decided before turn 5, or my captain's died by 3-4 and isn't there for turn five.  This moves it one turn to the right potentially.  But -- with the relic shield and extra wound, he's  trading durability for mobility -- it might actually be more worthwhile.  

 

What do you guys think?

 

Burning Blade JP Captain -- M12" WS 2 BS 2 S4 (7 w/ hammer, 8 with Imperium Sword WLT), T4 W5 A4 Sv 3+/3+ (storm shield)

 

Indomitus Captain - M6" WS 2 BS 2 S4 (7/8) T4 W6 A5 (extra attack!) Sv 3+/4+ invuln/4+ shrug of mortals & +1 to save (so effectively 2+?)

 

Seems pretty sturdy to me and I'm very tempted.  Plus....wicked model.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Lukoi

[Hymnblade]

The Indomitus captain is much worse at killing vehicles, and can't charge planes. He's decent in melee, but not an especially strong beatstick for his price tag IMO.

 

Also, 2+/4++ is probably worse than 3++, at least until the new storm shields get proliferated to everybody else.

[Lukoi]

The Indomitus captain is much worse at killing vehicles, and can't charge planes. He's decent in melee, but not an especially strong beatstick for his price tag IMO.

 

Also, 2+/4++ is probably worse than 3++, at least until the new storm shields get proliferated to everybody else.

 

I'll grant you the flying issue certainly but mathematically, I'm tracking something very different regarding the killing power.  

 

The Jumping Burning Blade Captain does the same damage as the Hammer Captain, unless you swap to a Master Crafted Hammer as your relic, which does about a half wound more on average to vehicles and less to knights.

 

The Burning Blade indom makes good headway damage wise to both of those due to the -5 AP, based on the extra attack combined with avoiding the -1HR that a Thunder Hammer comes with.  It still comes out doing more damage to vehicles, and is similar in damage to knights (who aren't honestly his target audience by himself, at least for me).

 

I agree the 3+ might end up being better for certain, but I think either option forces an opponent to go with their higher AP assets if only to force the issue. 

 

I definitely need to consider that flyer on flyer issue as you mention for starters, thanks for the insight.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Lukoi

[Dracos]

I’m hurt you left the Ravenspire in your quest for knowledge. Wounded I tell your. ;)

 

I’m not huge fan of the Indomitus Captain. I’m also not a huge fan of the Smash Captain because he’s not Primaris. If I were to go for a Primaris Captain to Strike from the Shadows it would be a Gravis Captain with Burning Blade (looking at you who I finally painted during lockdown). Also instead of a Smash Captain I’m suggesting you use the Outrider Chaplain. He can start on the board. Good for 50/50 deployment. I’d fast as sin and pretty smashy if you take the right wargear. Take him as your warlord and Shrike to do the deep striking.

 

Best of luck. I get myself in these same pickles (looking at Inceptor I converted to a Smash Captain last year ;))

[Medjugorje]

The Black Templar Smasher is dead because Special Detachements are not allowed anymore in competitive (tournaments) games. But I think +1Str. and +1 Attack and reroll chargerolls is good for any chapter so far.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Hymnblade]

 

The Burning Blade indom makes good headway damage wise to both of those due to the -5 AP, based on the extra attack combined with avoiding the -1HR that a Thunder Hammer comes with.  It still comes out doing more damage to vehicles, and is similar in damage to knights (who aren't honestly his target audience by himself, at least for me).

Oh, I missed that you were using Burning Blade. Personally, I think the Burning Blade isn't a very good relic choice overall: a relic blade is just about as good and doesn't cost CP, but if you're going to invest in a relic, a master-crafted relic blade/power fist does the same thing better. And if you're willing to spend the points for a thunder hammer, the master-crafted hammer leaves it in the dust against vehicles. Meanwhile, if you want something to clear Primaris bodies, the Teeth of Terra is better for that.

 

The flyer thing kind of depends on the army. If you're playing a melee army without a lot of jump packs (eg, certain White Scars or Space Wolf lists), characters are basically your only way to handle planes. If you've got a solid amount of shooting, it's less important.

[Lukoi]

 

 

The Burning Blade indom makes good headway damage wise to both of those due to the -5 AP, based on the extra attack combined with avoiding the -1HR that a Thunder Hammer comes with.  It still comes out doing more damage to vehicles, and is similar in damage to knights (who aren't honestly his target audience by himself, at least for me).

Oh, I missed that you were using Burning Blade. Personally, I think the Burning Blade isn't a very good relic choice overall: a relic blade is just about as good and doesn't cost CP, but if you're going to invest in a relic, a master-crafted relic blade/power fist does the same thing better. And if you're willing to spend the points for a thunder hammer, the master-crafted hammer leaves it in the dust against vehicles. Meanwhile, if you want something to clear Primaris bodies, the Teeth of Terra is better for that.

 

The flyer thing kind of depends on the army. If you're playing a melee army without a lot of jump packs (eg, certain White Scars or Space Wolf lists), characters are basically your only way to handle planes. If you've got a solid amount of shooting, it's less important.

 

 

MC Hammer is definitely the winner at that price (I'll be surprised if they let the Indom Captain have it, and if they do...that opens up a WHOLE different discussion, because 7 attacks with that thing after a charge is probably worth the points for certain).  But a non-MC relic blade 

 

A master crafted relic blade:  S+2 (so S6, 7 with WLT charge) AP-3 D:D3+1 (effectively 3 damage on average)

 

A thunder Hammer: Sx2 (8, 9 with Imp Sword WLT charge), AP -3 D: 3 with a -1HR.  a Master Crafted is D:4 (where it's advantage lies) - it's potential S9 means it's wounding even knights on a 3, offsetting the -1HR somewhat.

 

Burning Blade is S+3 (7, 8 with Imp Sword WLT charge), AP -5, D:2

 

Wounds Through:

Non-CP Relic vs GEQ = 6.94 (overkilling 3 models)

Non-CP Relic vs MEQ = 4.63 (slightly overkilling 2 models)

Non-CP Relic vs VEQ = 3.47

Non-CP Relic vs KEQ = 1.85

 

MC Relic vs GEQ = 10.42 (overkilling 4 models)

MC Relic vs MEQ = 6.94 (overkilling 2-3 models)

MC Relic vs VEQ = 5.21

MC Relic vs KEQ = 2.778

 

Burning Blade vs GEQ = 6.94 (overkilling 3 models)

Burning Blade vs MEQ = 6.94 (overkilling 3 models)

Burning Blade vs VEQ = 5.56

Burning Blade vs KEQ = 2.78

 

MC Hammer (can't touch this) vs GEQ = 11.111 (overkilling 3 models)

MC Hammer vs MEQ = 9.25 (overkilling 3 models)

MC Hammer vs VEQ = 7.40

MC Hammer vs KEQ = 5.92

 

The MC Relic and the Burning are very similar output, but without spending the CP on one or the other, the regular sword falls behind.  I definitely agree the MC Hammer is best of the breed, but factoring in the sixth attack that the Indom Captain will get, closes the gap a bit.  Admittedly probably not enough though since I'm spending another CP to deepstrike this guy, who while potentially more durable....yea, this is why I come to forums to gain more perspective on ideas :)

 

Indom Captain with the blade: 8.33, 8.33, 6.67, 3.33 - imagine putting a MC in this guy's hands. Tasty. But probably not enough this time around.

 

Thanks all!

[Mandragola]

I’m hurt you left the Ravenspire in your quest for knowledge. Wounded I tell your.

 

I’m not huge fan of the Indomitus Captain. I’m also not a huge fan of the Smash Captain because he’s not Primaris. If I were to go for a Primaris Captain to Strike from the Shadows it would be a Gravis Captain with Burning Blade (looking at you who I finally painted during lockdown). Also instead of a Smash Captain I’m suggesting you use the Outrider Chaplain. He can start on the board. Good for 50/50 deployment. I’d fast as sin and pretty smashy if you take the right wargear. Take him as your warlord and Shrike to do the deep striking.

 

Best of luck. I get myself in these same pickles (looking at Inceptor I converted to a Smash Captain last year )

 

I think this is right. The Indomitus captain is good I think, but he wants to be around a bunch of other troops buffing their shooting and melee. That's a separate job to the smash captain. He's a very tough Warlord though and a good counter-charge threat. It's nice that he doesn't need to be bought any relics to be effective.

 

Meanwhile the biker chaplain can be an absolute beat stick. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Mandragola

[Lord Raven 19]

For me, I think that the indomitus cap suffers in the same way as shrike, having no way to access 3 damage weapons in melee. If he could, he would be far better.

[Daynga-Zone]

I agree with Mandragola. I think the Indomitus captain will have a hard time fulfilling the same role as a smash captain and he’s more of a counter charge than fire and forget.

 

However, the biker chaplain looks like an absolute beast.

[Lukoi]

IF they allow the Indom to take hammer, I will give it a shot and let you know how it goes. In the mean time, sticking with the current jump captain.

 

I just really gotta shake off the rule of cool addiction lol.

[Dracos]

IF they allow the Indom to take hammer, I will give it a shot and let you know how it goes. In the mean time, sticking with the current jump captain.

 

I just really gotta shake off the rule of cool addiction lol.

 

I'm so with you on that. I've had to yank on my leash twice this week not to order a second Indomitus box just to double up on the Outriders and Eradicators lol. I've decided to have my wife hide the whole box (selling Necrons) for three months or until the rules come out in Codex form. Then I can decide if I want to start a new army or just add to my current DIY Chapter color scheme.

[Lukoi]

I bought two boxes. My competitive list currently uses only two types of units from it. I feel your pain!

[Captain Idaho]

The major issue with Primaris Captains is their rather static approach to combat. They just don't move enough to get many turns of melee action.

 

Actually being in close combat, the Indomitus Captain is great. He'll carve through many models and take a beating, especially if you give him a tasty Relic to do so.

 

But the problem is speed and mobility. You want your close combat troops to fight as many close combat phases as possible to get the most out of them.

 

If your army is Raven Guard I presume you also are going for speed and mobility? It all depends on the build. Whack the Indomitus Captain in an Impulsor and you gain that speed but it is usually only one way. However, this could be enough to get the most out of him.

 

Now the game wants us to go for objectives and table quarters etc, it is more likely the Indomitus Captain will have the enemy counter attacking anyway, so he should see some decent close combat.

 

I know I've had a hell of a time killing off Gravis Captains late game when you've got less resources available so this should be a great boon for him.

[Panzer]

One of the huge advantages of the BA Smash Captain was always the mobility and utility, not just the amount of damage he can deal. If you take those away then you take away what made him this successfull. So for me it's no question. The Indomitus Captain is strong once in melee but a Smash Captain plays in a whole different league.