How do you plan to handle the new Look Out Sir! rule?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was listening to a competitive 40k podcast last night and they were interviewing a play tester that has won events such as Adepticon, NOVA and ETC. He discussed how easy it is to kill enemy characters now which kinda made me sad face. How are you planning to keep your characters alive? Iron Hands have a good number of rules to increase the resiliency of their characters but I’m wondering how it’ll go for other Chapters not as fortunate. 

[Minsc]

 

 

How are you planning to keep your characters alive?

Keep them close to units you're not afraid to lose, and make sure they have a proper invuln.

9th is a new ballpark when it comes to protecting and killing characters.
If someone with firepower wants your character dead, chances are there is little you can do to ultimately prevent it (unless you literally place your entire army in a 3" ball around said character.)

​What you can do however, is to make sure that your opponent has to (over)commit when he tries to take out said character and whatever unit 'protecting' it.
Preferably, said unit(s) is one of less importance, which means that in order to get to your character, your opponent first has to kill one (or more) units that he doesn't really care about killing, and that you don't care about losing. So if he opts to go for the kill, he'll "waste" firepower on a less important unit first, and then the rest of your army can retaliate on your turn.

Basically, don't have your most precious, expensive character guarded by your most precious, expensive unit that your opponent wants to kill.
Have your most precious, expensive character guarded by expendable units your opponent doesn't really want to focus on.
 

[Daynga-Zone]

What’s worked for me so far is pushing up the board in a couple of blobs and not expecting characters to buff more than 1-2 units. Those units protecting them need to be pretty beefy as well. My Techmarine and Librarian for IH hangout with my leviathan and redemptor, so far the redemptor hasn’t blown up but I’m dreading the game it does. If he ends up low on wounds I tend to move him away giving up the Techmarine heals just in case. My chaplain and Captain for DW move in the middle of a blob of intergressors and deepstrike in with plasma inceptors respectively.

 

Most of my games have also resulted in 2-3 skirmishes over the midpoints and either me or my opponent attempting to use movement or deepstrike to get onto a backfield objective. I’ve only gotten in 3 games so far (and two weren’t very competitive) but the batreps I’ve watched so far show this is usually the case.

 

Units that either don’t rely on character support or are large and tanky enough to protect them seem like gold early in this edition.

[Daynga-Zone]

 

How are you planning to keep your characters alive?

Keep them close to units you're not afraid to lose, and make sure they have a proper invuln.

 

9th is a new ballpark when it comes to protecting and killing characters.

If someone with firepower wants your character dead, chances are there is little you can do to ultimately prevent it (unless you literally place your entire army in a 3" ball around said character.)

 

​What you can do however, is to make sure that your opponent has to (over)commit when he tries to take out said character and whatever unit 'protecting' it.

Preferably, said unit(s) is one of less importance, which means that in order to get to your character, your opponent first has to kill one (or more) units that he doesn't really care about killing, and that you don't care about losing. So if he opts to go for the kill, he'll "waste" firepower on a less important unit first, and then the rest of your army can retaliate on your turn.

 

Basically, don't have your most precious, expensive character guarded by your most precious, expensive unit that your opponent wants to kill.

Have your most precious, expensive character guarded by expendable units your opponent doesn't really want to focus on.

I understand where you’re coming from, but at least for me, my characters are buffers so they have to be close to the precious expensive units anyways. For beatsticks or characters that can buff from afar this makes a lot of sense though.

[Lukoi]

I have three on the table, one in deepstrike.

 

Two of the three on the table have an invuln, and they are always near two intercessor squads, and near that package in parallel are a Relic Contemptor, and a Relic Leviathan, who have their own intercessors with them.  Blade Guards are near this mass as well.  

 

While the characters are all valuable, they each have a role that occurs early, and after that it's merely a bonus if their auras/effects survive really, save for the one Assassin on my list, and frankly he's a bear to kill.  

 

As infantry around them are attritted, the entire battleforce contracts as it pushes up the map.  The incoming deepstrike can either go do business, or in a pinch, come in to buttress the battleforce, as it's fairly strong in it's own right (Cents, Eradicators, Suppressors and the fourth character).

 

I've looked at all of the GT maps (since that's my personal focus for 9th ed), and "rehearsed" them several times to help me speed up my deployment, movement etc.  Obviously, your force loses models over time, so that'll be an adjustment I have to make on the fly, but at least my initial battle plan for the first couple of turns is well rehearsed.  After their DS comes in, or I've lost more than expected (or something unexpected), that's when I have to start adapting - part of the fun of the game right?

 

By the end of turn three, all of my characters have largely served their purpose, so anything surviving deeper into the game is a bonus (not that I plan to be flippant with them).

Edited July 23, 2020 by Lukoi

[Lemondish]

Honestly? I'm thinking how much I rely on characters for my list is probably the thing I'll change first and foremost.

[Riddlesworth]

army is built around 3 main threats.

 

2 characters, each buffing one of those threats. both characters have an invun. one of them has additional defensive tech.

 

I'm expecting them to die. But i don't see slay the warlord being taken any time soon, and if those threats are doing their jobs properly, i'm scoring well on primaries and impeding my opponent's scoring

[Ishagu]

I was listening to a competitive 40k podcast last night and they were interviewing a play tester that has won events such as Adepticon, NOVA and ETC. He discussed how easy it is to kill enemy characters now which kinda made me sad face. How are you planning to keep your characters alive? Iron Hands have a good number of rules to increase the resiliency of their characters but I’m wondering how it’ll go for other Chapters not as fortunate.

This is what I've been saying for the last week and people have refused to believe me. My local group has played dozens of games using the rules in 9th.

 

The solution is very simple - don't run expensive characters as they can't be protected anymore. Heroes like Calgar, Abaddon and even Guilliman can easily be caught out and destroyed. In the last game I played using my AdMech I removed my opponent's Guilliman on turn 2, and all of his characters by turn 4. Smash Captains are also greatly diminished in utility, but I personally never relied on them.

 

If you run cheap heroes and maximise the size and numbers of your other units, the impact of losing them is far less significant.

 

If you crowd your list to protect your characters you will lose the mission. It's as simple as that.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

Vehicles and Monsters are a great way to keep characters safe since they give Look Out Sir! without requirering to be a lot of models or having lots of wounds or whatever.

 

For shooty armies it won't be that big an issue. However for melee armies it looks quite differently. If either the character or their supported melee unit don't make the charge they are on their own and can get shot off the board easily. If the supported unit wipes the charged unit they can't really consolidate far away or they'll leave their character behind which would once again result in the character getting shot off the board easily.

[Riddlesworth]

 

I was listening to a competitive 40k podcast last night and they were interviewing a play tester that has won events such as Adepticon, NOVA and ETC. He discussed how easy it is to kill enemy characters now which kinda made me sad face. How are you planning to keep your characters alive? Iron Hands have a good number of rules to increase the resiliency of their characters but I’m wondering how it’ll go for other Chapters not as fortunate.

This is what I've been saying for the last week and people have refused to believe me. My local group has played dozens of games using the rules in 9th.

 

The solution is very simple - don't run expensive characters as they can't be protected anymore. Heroes like Calgar, Abaddon and even Guilliman can easily be caught out and destroyed. In the last game I played using my AdMech I removed my opponent's Guilliman on turn 2, and all of his characters by turn 4. Smash Captains are also greatly diminished in utility, but I personally never relied on them.

 

If you run cheap heroes and maximise the size and numbers of your other units, the impact of losing them is far less significant.

 

If you crowd your list to protect your characters you will lose the mission. It's as simple as that.

 

 

Rough translation in my area: "Boys over toys"

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Armored Personnel Carriers.

[Prot]

As I've said in numerous 9th edition battle reports; by turn 3 I am typically losing characters.

 

The thing I found with everything going up across the board, and the limitations of detachments, I honestly think the most effective thing I've done is... to stop using some HQ's/Characters, and as a direct result this gives you more points to put into protection. 

 

Marine characters in general love being near the action to enhance units. You'll star to pick up on keeping vital units around characters, but this can be counter productive as I've found 9th wants you exercising maximum board control. 

 

In short, the old chunk of marines wedging out deep strikers, and huddling in a firebase feels very dead right now.

[MegaVolt87]

1. take Indomi cpt + Lt

2. aggressive yolo up the board with meatshields.

3. Inter into redemptor dreadnaughts next crusade round.

4. *EVEN IN DEATH I STILL SERVE.* (Profit?!)

5. take Indomi cpt + Lt....

[Ishagu]

As I've said in numerous 9th edition battle reports; by turn 3 I am typically losing characters.

 

The thing I found with everything going up across the board, and the limitations of detachments, I honestly think the most effective thing I've done is... to stop using some HQ's/Characters, and as a direct result this gives you more points to put into protection.

 

Marine characters in general love being near the action to enhance units. You'll star to pick up on keeping vital units around characters, but this can be counter productive as I've found 9th wants you exercising maximum board control.

 

In short, the old chunk of marines wedging out deep strikers, and huddling in a firebase feels very dead right now.

This is my sentiment exactly. My take away is to run cheap custom characters in the 100 point range, and spend CP if need-be to upgrade their abilities.

 

We need units in all quarters of the board typically to be holding and fighting over objectives scattered around. If I spend 380 points on Guilliman (as an example), which feels a bit ludicrous in the current rules, I would need to dedicate lots of units to protect him. Whilst it's certainly possible to do so - and you could make a scary looking sledgehammer of units, as a result you handicap yourself significantly in terms of maximising board control and will lose the mission against a player that focuses on the objectives.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can always hide hq behind obscured terrain and see how your opponent reacts. Guilliman is amazingly resilient versus everything except MW - he can yolo quite well in the right circumstances. It really depends on what you’re up against... armies like admech, IG, SM and Tau will always present a challenge.

[Mandragola]

I think Pedro is going to go around with a Leviathan dreadnought to start with. That's not a very easy thing to remove. I'll try to use obscuring terrain to limit how much they both get shot.

 

That and I plan to flood the board with intercessors I think, so there shouldn't be a great shortage of 5-man units around the place.

[Lukoi]

I definitely disagree that you need units in all four quarters of the board, fighting over objectives. Going over the maps and playing thru with someone, I'm not finding that be the case.

 

On some maps it's two quarters and the center (you might drift just over into the other quarters but not out of neccessity), and on the other maps, I'm ending up fighting in three quarters at most, and that's basically after deepstrike seizes something that my main battleforce can get close enough to support.

 

The boards are a good size that even a footslogging army (as long as it can be effective in shooting, a more melee oriented chapter probably sees this very differently), can do alot of holding from centerish out.

 

On the wide boards, trying to cover any DZ objectives and spreading out for the mid board objectives stretches you much thinner, than turning the board 90 degrees and fighting up the longer, but skinner length. At least that's been my initial experience.

 

When you do that, the opponent either doesnt see it coming and ends up hesitating on seizing the DZ OBJ you've left isolated with some small unit, or they try to blunt the side you are leaning towards, which means a straight up fight. Properly managed, the latter should work in your favor, minus blundering aimlessly into their possessed bomb etc.

 

Ultimately you need 3 turns of H2 (or 3 on one of the maps with 6 OBJ I think), and one turn of HM to max primary. I honestly think over thinning your formations to chase a fourth quadrant is what loses you ability to maintain that.

 

Incidentally, outside of a gimmick like using a bike, or similar fast mover, small deepstrike throwaway unit hiding in cover in the fourth quarter (and it's a fine gimmick btw), I think it is easier to come close to maxing RTB secondary, than EOAF secondary.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Lukoi

[TheNewman]

My local group tends toward lower point games, so at the moment I'm thinking Master Techmarine and a couple of vehicles to hide him/get the +1 to-hit buff or possibly using Ravenguard to build a sniper base out of the Phobos Captain and Eliminators that can be effective while staying completely out of LoS. Either way the rest of the list gets to fend for itself.

[SillyDreadnought]

Are we all pretending that Company Veterans with their bodyguard rule don't exist anymore? Cheap, spammable, pretty handy if you kit them to do some damage ( or keep them cheap to eat bullets ).

[Lemondish]

Are we all pretending that Company Veterans with their bodyguard rule don't exist anymore? Cheap, spammable, pretty handy if you kit them to do some damage ( or keep them cheap to eat bullets ).

But at the same time, don't they take up Elite slots in the most inefficient way?

[TheNewman]

Elite slots aren't exactly at a premium.

[Minsc]

Elite slots aren't exactly at a premium.

Kinda depends on the list, chapter and player (and meta of course.)

 

Between Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, I find Elites to be the slot I run out of the most, despite being 0-6 instead of 0-3. 

Now with the additions from the Indomitus (more specifically the Judiciar and the Bladeguard-stuff), it's even more crowded. 

 

There's just so many good and fun choices in Elites, from all the different dreadnought-variants, to terminator-variants to specialists and veterans. 

[TheNewman]

True. Fast Attack tends to be my problem area, but I play Scars so it's to be expected.

[Hymnblade]

At 17 points per wound before upgrades, Company Veterans aren't a lot cheaper than the character they're protecting. And I mean, if your opponent can already shoot your vehicles and Primaris troops away to get to your characters, clearing 5 more wounds of Company Veterans probably won't stop them.

 

I've tried it before, and even with a Black Templar 4+++ (from Cenobytes) to shrug off the passed wounds, it's just OK but not great.

[Mandragola]

Right now the leviathan dread seems like the best babysitter. It’s very difficult to get rid of and it and if it explodes (which it does quite easily, unfortunately) it only does d3 damage, not d6 like all the Primaris vehicles. So it won’t kill the characters it’s protecting.