How do you plan to handle the new Look Out Sir! rule?

[Captain Idaho]

This is an interesting discussion point and one I raised on my channel.

 

I think the core concept of protecting characters and indeed their use in the game has to come from army building. The army gets great bonuses from having characters yet struggles to protect them.

 

I think the main problem in this regard is in how we view the rules in the game - Blast weapons hurt hordes so we avoid all units and builds that are affected by it. Elites choices are better than Troops and we don't need the latter to build for Command Points, so we minimise our Troops choices.

 

Basically, take infantry. In numbers. You need 10 Space Marines per character in my eyes, plus vehicles, so do so. Don't be afraid that Whirlwind will get maximum shots against your 10 man squad, as the alternative is it fires at your Librarian.

 

Plasma Cannons deadly? Yeah sure, but what do you think they'll do to your 5 man Aggressors? Or that Outriders squad? Both of which can't protect Characters after very little fire.

 

Larger units, not across the board but in important areas, is what is needed to build for survival.

 

Consider the following; you have 10 Intercessors, a unit of Inceptors that just killed a bunch of models for 2 turns in a row and a unit of Aggressors about to crash into his lines. What do you think your opponent will do with his Battle Cannon? At this stage, you probably want those Intercessors to take the Battle Cannon shot!

[Mandragola]

I think the effect of blast on marines is negligible, and should be ignored. It's only with units of 11+ that they get maximum shots and(other than BT and maybe SW?) we can't take any units that big. A gun getting a minimum of 3 shots is no big deal really, especially when that's often on 2D6. I guess we might start to see a lot more plasma cannons and, if so, this might change my advice. But anyway you can just combat squad.

 

For my Crimson Fists the logical thing is to build a castle around Pedro. I'll probably add a Lieutenant (or maybe Librarian with eye of hypnoth), Apothecary, Judiciar and Ancient to the mix. They'll stand around/behind a Leviathan, which can dare people to charge it. Aggressors, Eradicators and various kinds of intercessors (mostly with stalkers I think) will be layered around that.

 

However, you can kind of avoid the whole issue by just going for master artisans and MSU. Salamanders are looking very strong right now and I can see a good case for trying this with a Raven Guard successor too. This feels like clearly the way to go if you want to run lots of tanks and dreadnoughts, rather than risking them exploding on your castle.

[Snazzy]

Honestly? I'm thinking how much I rely on characters for my list is probably the thing I'll change first and foremost.

 

Same.  Ever since Secondaries were published i'm rethinking the whole idea of characters.

 

I find myself gravitating towards a fatalist approach of just trying to maximize the damage output when death inevitably comes.  Only In Death Does Duty End is a potential game changer.  My only real regret in scaling back characters is potentially giving up Deny The Witch rolls.

[leth]

Just add hector Rex for your dent the witch needs.

[Vermintide]

Who else has these words etched into the back of their skull?

 

Independent Character: Unless accompanied by a Command Squad, this unit is an independent character and follows all the Independent Character special rules as given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

In other words: Bring bodyguards (i.e Bladeguard Veterans). No more throwing HQ's around the board as though they can walk through fire.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think Bladeguard can intercept wounds and it’s only three Marines.

[Vermintide]

I don’t think Bladeguard can intercept wounds and it’s only three Marines.

They don't have to, you just put the character behind them. They do all have the +1 storm shield and 3 wounds each so they're not exactly going to be trivial to remove.

 

Either way, the nature of the rule is clearly aimed at encouraging you to have characters "join" nearby units to avoid having them targeted, in a way reminiscent of those old rules. But naturally, I won't exactly be surprised when the 40k community decides it's better to simply take a detachment of 40 conscripts/cultists/etc to give a character a meat shield.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Vermintide

[TheNewman]

 

 

I don’t think Bladeguard can intercept wounds and it’s only three Marines.

They don't have to, you just put the character behind them. They do all have the +1 storm shield and 3 wounds each so they're not exactly going to be trivial to remove.

 

Either way, the nature of the rule is clearly aimed at encouraging you to have characters "join" nearby units to avoid having them targeted, in a way reminiscent of those old rules. But naturally, I won't exactly be surprised when the 40k community decides it's better to simply take a detachment of 40 conscripts/cultists/etc to give a character a meat shield.

You only have to kill one Bladeguard and then they're no protection at all, that's kind of the point.

[Vermintide]

Well, yeah, that is the point. I don't think it's a coincidence they come in threes. You can have your Captain or whoever protected from all angles, but when one of them goes down he's fair game. You could take more but by then are you protecting a character or building a deathstar? Is the character worth the investment or should you just deal with the fact he's a little bit squishier now?

 

The trade off is that with a small, dedicated follower unit like that, the character in question still has their freedom to move around relatively unimpeded, whereas if you want to protect them a little more by tagging along with a Troop unit or a tank etc, you have to deal with the inherently more cumbersome movement that comes with that.

 

I wasn't claiming using bodyguards makes characters play like 8th all of a sudden, I was stating that that's what you'll have to do unless you want your characters killed T1. The other part of the equation is being more careful and not treating them as though they're invulnerable, as has often been the case up until now. I think it's a beneficial change to bring more tactical, considered play.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Vermintide

[TiguriusX]

I'm giving Bjorn a leash and letting him drag Murderfang wherever he goes

 

2 character vehicles will be blocking for each other until GW updates the rule to exclude character vehicles from blocking.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well, yeah, that is the point. I don't think it's a coincidence they come in threes. You can have your Captain or whoever protected from all angles, but when one of them goes down he's fair game. You could take more but by then are you protecting a character or building a deathstar? Is the character worth the investment or should you just deal with the fact he's a little bit squishier now?

 

The trade off is that with a small, dedicated follower unit like that, the character in question still has their freedom to move around relatively unimpeded, whereas if you want to protect them a little more by tagging along with a Troop unit or a tank etc, you have to deal with the inherently more cumbersome movement that comes with that.

 

I wasn't claiming using bodyguards makes characters play like 8th all of a sudden, I was stating that that's what you'll have to do unless you want your characters killed T1. The other part of the equation is being more careful and not treating them as though they're invulnerable, as has often been the case up until now. I think it's a beneficial change to bring more tactical, considered play.

 

if your opponent manages to kill one BG the character can be targeted. Easy to do with a smite or two .

[Lukoi]

 

Well, yeah, that is the point. I don't think it's a coincidence they come in threes. You can have your Captain or whoever protected from all angles, but when one of them goes down he's fair game. You could take more but by then are you protecting a character or building a deathstar? Is the character worth the investment or should you just deal with the fact he's a little bit squishier now?

 

The trade off is that with a small, dedicated follower unit like that, the character in question still has their freedom to move around relatively unimpeded, whereas if you want to protect them a little more by tagging along with a Troop unit or a tank etc, you have to deal with the inherently more cumbersome movement that comes with that.

 

I wasn't claiming using bodyguards makes characters play like 8th all of a sudden, I was stating that that's what you'll have to do unless you want your characters killed T1. The other part of the equation is being more careful and not treating them as though they're invulnerable, as has often been the case up until now. I think it's a beneficial change to bring more tactical, considered play.

 

if your opponent manages to kill one BG the character can be targeted. Easy to do with a smite or two .

 

 

You two are literally agreeing right now.  Vermintide says the very same thing in the second sentence.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was agreeing .

[Lukoi]

I was agreeing .

 

Ah I gotcha :)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I've just adjusted the number of characters I run down. In 8th I was taking 4-5 in most lists now I'm only taking 2-3. I've found that I need the bodies more for holding objectives.

[Vermintide]

if your opponent manages to kill one BG the character can be targeted. Easy to do with a smite or two .

Yeah, my point is that that if you want characters to retain a degree of independent mobility, not just act as backline buffers, a unit like that will be more or less mandatory, even if they offer relatively scant protection.

 

Even so, it will probably be enough to make your opponent prioritise their shooting differently. I have a feeling, though, that we'll see the introduction of more specific bodyguard rules when the codexes start coming out- I reckon the Cryptothralls Necrons just got hint at that for Crypteks (and you only get two in the box IIRC).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m planning on running mech lists now to protect my characters.

[Paulinus]

I think dreads will make for good character escorts. I’ve been running two relic contemptors with GMan. I have a 2man Victrix Guard to absorb any sniper fire. So far it has been effective but time will tell.

[Gothical]

I am not too bothered to be honest.

 

I use my Characters as support for the rest of the army anyway, rather than trying to build a character-centric deathball,  so they are often near units that can happily screen them. 10 Assault Intercessors is looking like a great way to protect my Ancient/Apothecary/Chaplain (whatever I am using that battle), especially if there are nearby Bladeguard units to make target priority harder for the opponent. Combine that with 5-man units of Intercessors protecting Lieutenant/Librarians, and then all the vehicles that can provide cover in several ways too (transport, blocking LOS, being closer model etc) and I figure that most things are going to be fairly safe.

 

The biggest risk is for my Chaplain on Bike, given for the moment Outriders are limited to 3 models per unit so one casualty stops them blocking (T5 and multi-wound helps, as do White Scars stratagems). He at least has the movement to get in-and-out of trouble though, especially since charging does not require Line of Sight.

[One Two Wolf]

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

[Minsc]

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

3 Land Speeders don't have 19 S4 AP1 attacks on the charge.

[One Two Wolf]

 

 

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

3 Land Speeders don't have 19 S4 AP1 attacks on the charge.

How does that help protect a character exactly?

[Minsc]

 

 

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

3 Land Speeders don't have 19 S4 AP1 attacks on the charge.

How does that help protect a character exactly?

 

My bad, I didn't fully read Gothical's post.

[One Two Wolf]

 

 

 

 

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

3 Land Speeders don't have 19 S4 AP1 attacks on the charge.

How does that help protect a character exactly?

My bad, I didn't fully read Gothical's post.

Tbh I think terrain is going to make a bigger difference than which unit is chosen to tank hits anyway. The variety of solutions will be cool to see as peeps come up with ways to shield their characters but at the end of all the ideas and theory it will come down to dice and in 90% of cases, LoS.

[Snazzy]

Surely outriders are vehicles, like land speeders. T5, W6 and only 2CP for a 3++ if you advance, otherwise just a 4++. Not bad for 60 points. And no explode IIRC.

 

They explode.  A real waste of Anti-grav Upwash, too.

 

Agreed on Company Vets.  They account for things that ignore Look Out, Sir.