Novel - Saturnine

[Brother_Darius]

Has any one else heard about the surprise at the end of Saturnine?

 

How serious of a Lore rewrite is this?

[Berzul]

Please, elaborate. Don't care about spoilers; please explain said lore rewrite. Edited July 25, 2020 by Berzul

[Skywrath]

Do tell, you have me most intrigued.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skywrath

[Marshal Loss]

For those interested, I'll spoiler it anyway:

 

Saturnine ends with Corswain and his portion of the Dark Angels Legion (a sizeable fleet, to put it mildly) arriving in the Solar System.\

 

 

‘Those ship profiles are unmistakable,’ whispered the Master of Auspex.
Su-Kassen looked at the Officer of Vox. ‘Hailing channel,’ she said.
Tight beam, direct.’
‘Aye, lady. Done.’
‘This is-‘ she started to say. No. No identifiers. Keep it simple. ‘You are in our gun sphere. Identify yourself.’
‘Incoming visual.’
‘Display it,’ said Su-Kassen.
‘Display, aye.’
An image unfurled, at giant proportions, cast above the vault of the main bridge by hololithic plates.
A face. Black armour. Unmistakable black armour.
‘I am Corswain of the Dark Angels,’ the vox-speakers crackled. ‘We come to stand with Terra.’

Edited July 25, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Brother_Darius]

 

For those interested, I'll spoiler it anyway:

 

Saturnine ends with Corswain and his portion of the Dark Angels Legion (a sizeable fleet, to put it mildly) arriving in the Solar System.\

 

 

‘Those ship profiles are unmistakable,’ whispered the Master of Auspex.

Su-Kassen looked at the Officer of Vox. ‘Hailing channel,’ she said.

Tight beam, direct.’

‘Aye, lady. Done.’

‘This is-‘ she started to say. No. No identifiers. Keep it simple. ‘You are in our gun sphere. Identify yourself.’

‘Incoming visual.’

‘Display it,’ said Su-Kassen.

‘Display, aye.’

An image unfurled, at giant proportions, cast above the vault of the main bridge by hololithic plates.

A face. Black armour. Unmistakable black armour.

‘I am Corswain of the Dark Angels,’ the vox-speakers crackled. ‘We come to stand with Terra.’

 

EXACTLY!

 

This is HUGE. 

 

To my knowledge there was never any indication of this.  Plus we might finally get to see a hero fleshed out

[Gederas]

It's less a lore rewrite and more an expansion. Because, iirc, to my knowledge, the Dark Angels' status of where they were was unknown during the Siege of Terra during all the lore?

[Skywrath]

It's less a lore rewrite and more an expansion. Because, iirc, to my knowledge, the Dark Angels' status of where they were was unknown during the Siege of Terra during all the lore?

 

Those are exactly my thoughts and their subsequent expansion:

 

I haven't read the novel, but based off this, I have a suspicion that without breaking the previous lore, Corswain's fleet arrives out of it's own volition, rather than being ordered by the Lion himself. If I recall right, then the Lion didn't mind some autonomy within the DA ranks.

 

To compound this fact further, assuming what Astelan said in the trilogy of books was correct (the one where he was interrogated by Boreas), that the Lion waited to see who would win. With this in mind, I suspect this is what happened. Of course, you could dismiss that as lies, but I don't think he was lying - it sounds like something the Lion would do.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

It's less a lore rewrite and more an expansion. Because, iirc, to my knowledge, the Dark Angels' status of where they were was unknown during the Siege of Terra during all the lore?

 

Those are exactly my thoughts and their subsequent expansion:

 

I haven't read the novel, but based off this, I have a suspicion that without breaking the previous lore, Corswain's fleet arrives out of it's own volition, rather than being ordered by the Lion himself. If I recall right, then the Lion didn't mind some autonomy within the DA ranks.

 

To compound this fact further, assuming what Astelan said in the trilogy of books was correct (the one where he was interrogated by Boreas), that the Lion waited to see who would win. With this in mind, I suspect this is what happened. Of course, you could dismiss that as lies, but I don't think he was lying - it sounds like something the Lion would do.

The issue with the whole "The Lion waited to see who won" thing is this:

 

The Horus Heresy novels have shown that the Lion is probably the most loyal out of all the Primarchs, with only Russ (amusingly enough) and Dorn being the ones who could be argued to be as loyal or more loyal than the Lion.

 

[shabbadoo]

No kidding. "The Lion was waiting to see who would win."  Really? This is still a thing? The Lion didn't wait it out any more than Guilliman did, or Sanguinius did.

 

A summary of events for those who don't read (very recently updated):

 

Ultimately, after a number of disasters, clashes between Guilliman, Sanguinius, and Lion El'Jonson, and a vision by Sanguinius that the Emperor was alive, Imperium Secundus was abolished. The three Primarch's led their Legions in an attempt to breach the Ruinstorm and reach Terra. After an arduous journey, they eventually reached Davin, the nexus of the Ruinstorm, and engaged a vast Daemonic host. After the battle and the destruction of Davin, a way to Terra through the Ruinstorm was clear. However, in their way stood many enemy blockades, as Horus had foreseen this route.

Sanguinius and the Blood Angels raced directly for Terra, as was their destiny, while Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson led the Ultramarines and Dark Angels in diversionary attacks against Horus' blockade.^[45]  By the time of the Siege of Terra the Lion hoped to draw away traitor forces from the Throneworld by striking at their own homeworlds. As a result, the Dark Angels destroyed several traitor homeworlds such as Chemos, Nuceria^[60], and Barbarus.^[49] Meanwhile Corswain's fleet of Dark Angels was able to reach Terra and aid the loyalists.^[60]

 

^{The Lion sure put in a lot of effort for somebody who was just "waiting it out." To even reach that judgement, we'd have to ignore most of what happened between the Gordian League and the race to Terra.}

 

^{Which would simply be stupid.}

 

^{But, no, The Lion was waiting it out in the most "Run The Traitor Gauntlet" fashion as was possible. For the fun of it. Because that is just how The Lion rolls.}

 

The Space Wolves took out The Thousand Sons homeworld.

The Dark Angels took out the homeworlds of the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard.

Because The Lion was "waiting to see which side to choose." Sounds like less of waiting to see and more leaning on the Imperial side of the scale to me. Come to think of it, maybe it was the Space Wolves who were waiting to see who won. I mean, they weren't on Terra at all, and they did only destroy one Traitor homeworld (not like they had much choice with Custodes and Sisters of Silence minders among them). Hmmm... Edited July 25, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Skywrath]

You are missing the point - I used the fact of the Lion was waiting as a reinforcement to my above argument, but not as the main argument. You very well could spin my above thesis with the argument

 

that Corswain was sent by the Lion, instead of being sent independently.

 

No need to get worked up about it, brother. 

 

Also seeing how some of the people haven't read the novel (myself included) perhaps it's better to put these things within the domain of spoilers. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skywrath

[shabbadoo]

I wasn't responding specifically to you, but Gederas, who, well quoted you, so I guess I did!

 

And waiting sounds like something The Lion would do? You might want to read up on The Lion, and then consider his responses to everything he comes across  from Caliban all the way to Terra. He is anything but "The Waiter." After seeing the spoilers I posted, do you still think The Lion is "The Waiter?" He would be more aptly termed the "Reaper of Traitors," as no Loyalist Primarch did more. He didn't even wait to blast Caliban. The Lion is very decisive, and is also preternaturally skilled in quickly seeing the Big Picture.

 

And Spoilers fixed.

Edited July 25, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Skywrath]

I've read the book, but for the life of me, can't remember anything baring the important details. However, I'd like to point something out - the Lion was renowned as a strategist, and as philosophy dictates strategy requires waiting to be effective. There was also another note (I think it was an id4chan article (yes yes hear me out)) where Rogal Dorn and Gulliman were renowned for sticking to the plan, while the Lion knew when to epitomise that idea, or to go full on slaughtering like the World Eaters (as you implied). The title is a nice one, however I believe he was the reaper of traitors because he was forced to be in that position, not by choice. Personally, I thought the title of the Lion was enough of a gauge on his character - domineering, bold, decision orientated.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skywrath

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think it is nice they are adding some stuff to the lore. Good to see DA there on the thick of it!

[shabbadoo]

The Lion isn't a human being, with a human mind. He can figure out strategy for multiple combat theaters across multiple systems in seconds, and monitor/direct all of them in real time. Just like Guilliman can. Most of the Primarchs have a similar gift, though it is most prominent in The Lion, Guilliman, and Horus. Waiting isn't the core principle of strategy for any Primarch, let alone those three. The only reason they wait is for reinforcements, supplies, or to spring a trap. You really think that The Lion waited? Read the Thramas books. Horus sends the Lion and Sanguinius to the arse ends of the universe precisely because he knows they are incorruptible. Does The Lion even remotely give any indication that he is considering his loyalty to the Emperor? Ever? No. Curze even taunts him with what is going on, and how he is too far away to be able to do anything about it. Well, that sluggish waiting Lion found a way to get mixed up in it after all, didn't he. Waiting indeed.

 

And forced into the position? No, the reason he took on the duties he did was because he was the best suited to them. Was he also earlier forced into sending Corswain and his fleet after the Death Guard? He seems to be trying awfully hard to avoid waiting. All of the time. As to why he take the role he does, you do know that the Primarchs have gifts special to each of them, right? So, who do you put in charge of drawing off superior Traitor forces - an uber tactical genius or an inspiration leader? Sanguinius takes on the Shining Savior Spearhead duty, Guilliman engages and pins, and the Lion, unsurprisingly, takes on the workman's duty of drawing enemies away from the glory ridden Siege of Terra, and going on a rampage of destruction that his Legion - and no other - is equipped for. Forced indeed. Now, if The Lion withdrew or didn't make much of an effort to go after the Traitors in Saturnine, then you would have a point, but that isn't even remotely what happened. You have to look at the whole picture, and also remember what Astelan's accusation refers to:

 

 

 

For Astelan pointed out that the Lion was historically noted to be unusually slow in reaching Terra, in fact to the point where the Dark Angels under his command missed the entire Battle of Terra. Scorning Boreas' version in his turn (that the Lion was waylaid by much conflict and was simply late), Astelan revealed that the Lion - a peerless strategist never defeated in battle - wasn't late; he was stalling in order to see who would win.

 

I know The Lion is super awesome, but unlike Astelan I am capable of acknowledging that other Primarchs like Curze may be not exactly be un-awesome and so perhaps be somewhat of a challenge even for The Lion; not that another Primarch (Mortarion) didn't also have a hand in slowing him down. And the whole never-before-seen monster Warp Storm thing. Yeah, that might slow The Lion down a bit too, rather than the sandy beaches and cocktails he wasn't enjoying while waiting to see who won. Therefor, Astelan is either a liar, or he really does believe what he is saying simply because he is ignorant of the actual events.

 

Unlike Astelan we are neither liars, nor are we ignorant of the actual events. Still think The Lion was waiting?

Edited July 25, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Skywrath]

I'll restate my previous response again - tone it down three notches, I was stating an opinion, and not looking for a fight.

 

Secondly, my original response, as I pointed out previously was more to reinforce the argument, rather than the main one. You have the audacity to tell me to look at the bigger picture, when in reality you are guilty of the same thing. I proposed an alternative to the original statement where, well, you can see the spoiler for that. Again, I have zero idea what got you so riled up.

 

Thirdly, yes, due to your "argument" it's unlikely that the Lion waited. However, both of us know that the Lion concealed schemes within schemes, even if on the surface it looks like he could have been considering his allegiance to the Emperor, it's unlikely. That's the last I will speak on this matter.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skywrath

[aura_enchanted]

wonder if they will ret con holder of the keys too. corswain appears there and takes out the orbital weapons station around caliban slaying hadrian luthes appointed fallen champion but the station was rigged to blow

 

for those that didnt know hes in an audio drama allow me to paraphrase as its one of the coolest moments ive seen in an audio drama.

 

hadrian was the best of us, master of blades he lept to our defense. his twin chainswords rang out for full on 3 minutes as he held the door to the savior pods. but then we saw who led the foe and knew hadrian had left it too late.... paladin.. pureblade.. hound lord; once the noblest of us now lick spit filth to the reign of terror.. dread corswain. in beasts mantle he approached brandishing a sword of white fire. what debts he owed for its gifting none dare say. "for caliban" hardian cried knowing not to wait for the paladins attack and it was then we knew hadrian had swung his last. corswain moved in a way i had never seen a man move. he sidestepped hadrian and cut him from gut to nape in one blow. we were always intending on leaving but i admit freely that looking upon corswain in that instant and we fled in terror, for to remain was to die...

Edited July 25, 2020 by aura_enchanted

[mactire]

Okay, now that is poetry in prose.

[aura_enchanted]

later in the story:

 

ezekiel: "LIAR!, not the victim, the brave defender, murderer!, cold blooded slayer of brothers!"

 

fallen prisoner: " the station was rigged to auto destruct, it had been activated the moment the battle started, "leave no pursuing foe" that was our orders. it was not an honorable blow but we were desperate!"

 

*ezekiel stabs the fallen in the shoulder*

 

the whole audio drama is actually pretty good, ezekiel demonstrates his mental skill. and to be upfront with you its the crux of why i think ezekiel might be corswain kept in cryosleep for all these years and why he acts so unsuprised by the events of the eye of ezekiel book. in that book the former chief librarian explains that he is just a seat warmer for the chosen chief librarian. that he was always going to be chief librarian and that he is his better in every way. and he looks so coldly at the mask of ezekiel the crude face mask setup he wears and how is not the first time a librarian of the dark angels has worn the mask. and the nrecount of him sidestepping and blowing the orks aside with ease is eerily similar to how he dismantles hadrian

 

in the audio drama he has a serious personal deep anger towards this fallen. all of the inner circle have a bone to pick with them but ezekiel seems to have a very personal rage. he lets this poor fallen angel have it. his anger building, the entire time the fallen has absolutely no idea where he is. and ezekiel is making the deathwing guards look like 12 foot giants, he temporarily become an anthro furry wolf man, and he seems to know exactly what happened to this fallen and really hes just waiting for the fallen to speak and be honest. hes really jsut making this man squirm and scream in his chair and not really interrogating him and one of the final cruxes is that he recreates caliban in his mind, he recreates the forests of old, the beasts of chaos in the woods, he vividly recreates this mans memories and subjects him to them to turn his stomach and confess.

 

its very raw, it all seems to convenient that ezekiel just happens to be so good he can do all this and that ezekiel simply is jsut "some guy we found one day". if corswain was a latent psyker his skills as a warrior and his skills as a psyker if he survived the destruction would be a precious tool to hoard and save for a rainy day. and azreal authorizing his awakening so he can be used to hunt a fallen or the fallen at large, maybe azreal learned of a fallen that needed his talents, its not very clear but my faith is strong even if its crackpot nonsense.

Edited July 25, 2020 by aura_enchanted

[jaxom]

Spoiler-containing discussion that's actually relevant and not rehashing old debates.

Siege of Terra series established that Perturabo fortified the Solar system as the traitor host made in-roads to Terra specifically to slow down or stop any enemy reinforcements. A older bit of lore stated that Horus prevented Terra from knowing loyalist reinforcements were imminent. I think they're setting up the Dark Angels, under Corswain, clearing a path to Terra for the Lion (and Russ and/or Guilliman) while putting the pressure we know has to eventually exist on Horus so he makes the gambit of lowering the Vengeful Spirit's shields.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, the story is shaping up nicely. I am curious as to what they will do with Corswain, and how they will expand on his story more and that of those with him. Perhaps they eventually "disappear" by becoming Grey Knights? Or perhaps he goes the route of Sigismund and ends up as the forebear of a Sucessor Chapter, such as that of the Consecrators (who are of an unknown Founding), and who seemingly appeared out of nowhere armed with ancient equipment and relics of the Chapter not seen in millennia.

Edited July 26, 2020 by shabbadoo

[jaxom]

Fate of Corswain spoiler

Luthor thinks the The Lion’s Hound died during the fall of Caliban.

[Helias_Tancred]

I believe he was on the trail of Typhon and his group of Death Guard, which is what led him there?

[jbaeza94]

Very interesting. I totally forgot to check on the release of the book, gonna start listening to it today!

[jaxom]

I believe he was on the trail of Typhon and his group of Death Guard, which is what led him there?

When it comes to any sort of consistency with the Dark Angels through the Horus Heresy, don't expect linear sense. However if I had to take a stab at it: Typhus met up with Mortarion and the main body of the Death Guard for the journey to Terra;

Corswain following that trail would end at Terra.