G8Keeper Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Playing devil's advocate that would mean no new stuff for anyone who was outside of the marines codex in 8th bar Grey Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 It’s just going back to the 3rd edition marine Codex paradigm. As I have said many times before, GW always goes back to old ideas and designs periodically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Bahram Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Do we have a date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Meh. The Emperor's Champion wasn't BT unique and then it was, the Crusader was BT unique and then it wasn't. Strength 6 power weapons were DA unique and then they weren't. Mass teleporting Terminators was DA unique and then it wasn't. Rules change, units come and go. I acknowledge that for some these things are important. I sympathize, but personally don't care. I think the community that grows around a faction is healthiest when the growth is not spurred by game results or what GW deigns to release, but by an attachment to the core of what that faction represents or is. I find posts/conversations of someone's personal lore/army fluff, or painting a units with their captain's heraldry, or kitbash, or conversion to be the foundation a player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Had a full list made somewhere but that not exactly true; BT Unique units we had at one point (characters aside) EChampion (depending on opanion) Crusader Squad Crusader Bike Squad (Codex Armaggaeddon) Durandal Dreadnought (White Dwarf Supplement) Neophyte Ancient Our Assault Squads and Biker Squads were unique in that we could take power weapons. And while this did make the squad our Veteran Squads did not have Veteran Sargeants. Like there is likely a few more easy options you could mention or expand on, but we had 4-6 unique units + 3-5 unique characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimVandy85 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Had a full list made somewhere but that not exactly true; BT Unique units we had at one point (characters aside) EChampion (depending on opanion) Crusader Squad Crusader Bike Squad (Codex Armaggaeddon) Durandal Dreadnought (White Dwarf Supplement) Neophyte Ancient Our Assault Squads and Biker Squads were unique in that we could take power weapons. And while this did make the squad our Veteran Squads did not have Veteran Sargeants. Like there is likely a few more easy options you could mention or expand on, but we had 4-6 unique units + 3-5 unique characters. Neophyte ancient? Not familiar with this one. What's it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 While I get that 3rd edition is the natural reference for this. I believe that we are in a far different place now than we were then. Keep in mind that first there was Rogue Trader ,then 2nd edition. Back then there were really only 4 distinct space marine chapters. Vanilla, Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels. even then the distinction between them was not huge. There really was only one type of bikes that all shared. one type of TDA that all shared. one type of dreadnought that all shared, etc..... It was just additional skills layed over the same equipment. It was fairly easy to just do supplements on top of a main Marine book Now thou, 6 additional editions later. There are MANY distinct chapters with destinct equipment. I doubt that all will now get Black and Deathwing Knights, Talonmasters, and Darkshrouds. I do think this that this is a way to hold off on getting seperate DA, BA, SW, etc... for awhile. But that's ok. I think we will get them within a year. I believe it is a way for them to buy time so that other races like Eldar, Orc's, Tau, can get some long needed attention, inbetween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I think it could be a good thing to have all our info in the Codex, and supplement that with what is uniquely ours. Would save from a lot of mistakes in having the same info duplicated across two books Dosjetka 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnerBeta Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Meh. The Emperor's Champion wasn't BT unique and then it was, the Crusader was BT unique and then it wasn't. Strength 6 power weapons were DA unique and then they weren't. Mass teleporting Terminators was DA unique and then it wasn't. Rules change, units come and go. I acknowledge that for some these things are important. I sympathize, but personally don't care. I think the community that grows around a faction is healthiest when the growth is not spurred by game results or what GW deigns to release, but by an attachment to the core of what that faction represents or is. I find posts/conversations of someone's personal lore/army fluff, or painting a units with their captain's heraldry, or kitbash, or conversion to be the foundation a player base. Those and more were unique to them, units they got as a standalone codex. After being folded into the codex they've gotten nothing new. And so will likely all those folded into it now, just Primaris upgrade sprues. Having a separate codex was likely the last chance to be different and have soul, have our own units while other chapters had theirs. Maybe I'll get proven wrong, but I'm 99% sure I won't be. But enough of doomposting, this conversation won't go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Emperors Champion was also published in White Dwarf and allowed for all Chapters until the first stand alone BT codex after C:Armaggedon. And you’re right about the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) While I get that 3rd edition is the natural reference for this. I believe that we are in a far different place now than we were then. Keep in mind that first there was Rogue Trader ,then 2nd edition. Back then there were really only 4 distinct space marine chapters. Vanilla, Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels. even then the distinction between them was not huge. There really was only one type of bikes that all shared. one type of TDA that all shared. one type of dreadnought that all shared, etc..... It was just additional skills layed over the same equipment. It was fairly easy to just do supplements on top of a main Marine book Now thou, 6 additional editions later. There are MANY distinct chapters with destinct equipment. I doubt that all will now get Black and Deathwing Knights, Talonmasters, and Darkshrouds. I do think this that this is a way to hold off on getting seperate DA, BA, SW, etc... for awhile. But that's ok. I think we will get them within a year. I believe it is a way for them to buy time so that other races like Eldar, Orc's, Tau, can get some long needed attention, inbetween. This has been a long-standing philosophical debate - just how different should the various Chapters be (from the norm, as represented by Codex: Space Marines)? The 3rd edition rules started the trend of making Chapters truly divergent from the norm, though this practice was truly escalated in later editions. Even though the Index Astartes articles gave a lot of less popular Chapters distinctive rules, GW started reining things in for most Chapters after 3rd edition. Many players really like "their" Chapter to be vastly divergent from the norm in terms of rules and units. Other players are satisfied with "their" Chapter being little more than a variation on a theme, with the distinctiveness portrayed in terms of the Chapter's background and personality. Everyone falls somewhere between those two extremes. The interesting thing about codex supplements is that they allow for some level of variation, anywhere on that spectrum, really. There are ways to say that Chapter C cannot use units X, Y, and Z from the codex; or that they additionally have units M, N, and O. Some Chapters can be written as very distinctive from the norm, while others can be very close to the norm. The codex supplement construct doesn't inherently remove anyone's distinctiveness, though it certainly allows distinctiveness to be reduced by whatever degree GW feels is appropriate. As an exercise, Dark Angels players should compare their current codex to that of the current Codex: Space Marines and remove everything that is duplicated. How much is left? What small bit could be included in the new Codex: Space Marines to give players a basic feel for the Chapter (without all of the distinctive goodies)? How much is left to form the backbone of a possible codex supplement, and how might things have to be phrased in order to support the transition? Is it possible for the Dark Angels to remain every bit as distinctive under the codex supplement construct as is supported by the codex construct? My personal theory on the timing of the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves codex supplements is that they should come shortly after Codex: Space Marines, most likely before the other codex supplements for that book. The current codex supplements for Codex: Space Marines (Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc.) suffice for now and will carry those Chapters into 9th edition well enough, but the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves will need their codex supplements as early as possible in order for them to work with the new codex. With the codex supplement change being so significant and affecting the flagship faction, I expect that these will be among the first books released for the edition, alongside Codex: Necrons. The only things that might delay them are if GW plans on creating new units for them (not likely, except for special characters) or if there are other factions that are impacted in an even more meaningful way (we've seen some of the previewed models, but are those units ready for a codex?). Ultimately, while GW could water these absorbed Chapters down through their shift to codex supplements, I don't foresee that happening this time around. I think that these Chapters will remain fairly close to their current incarnations. There are bound to be small changes (losses?) here and there, but the core distinctiveness will likely remain. We'll see things start to get watered down starting in 10th edition, hopefully after GW gets the Primaris range rounded out and we're not left with capability gaps. +EDIT+ A fair response to all of the above: Hidden Content Edited July 25, 2020 by Brother Tyler Vardus and Gederas 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darmor Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 As an exercise, Dark Angels players should compare their current codex to that of the current Codex: Space Marines and remove everything that is duplicated. How much is left? What small bit could be included in the new Codex: Space Marines to give players a basic feel for the Chapter (without all of the distinctive goodies)? How much is left to form the backbone of a possible codex supplement, and how might things have to be phrased in order to support the transition? Is it possible for the Dark Angels to remain every bit as distinctive under the codex supplement construct as is supported by the codex construct? Had just done so. Dark Angels have (both in codex and Ritual of the Damned) 28 units unique to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 You can't look at just the units, though. Look at the lore, the warlord traits, etc. Moreover, after identifying the unique units, identify where those might replace similar units in the main codex and how GW would either rule those other units out or include them. Also, what changes might be imposed? For example, could the Dark Angels get their green bikers back? And what units in Codex: Space Marines might not be allowed for the Dark Angels. Looking at unique units is only a start, barely scratching the surface of building the theoretical backbone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 The supplements should be released fairly soon after the main codex. It will be total bedlam attempting to play in that interregnum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I just hope we get custom doctrines for our succesors. It's a neutral change for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mika_angelus Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I'm happy . Maybe we will get access to new (old) units we didn't have before. And of not we should get access to stratagems. Only thing holding my deathwing from ruling the world is the lack of master of sanctify stratagems from PA :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff. Had a full list made somewhere but that not exactly true; BT Unique units we had at one point (characters aside) EChampion (depending on opanion) Crusader Squad Crusader Bike Squad (Codex Armaggaeddon) Durandal Dreadnought (White Dwarf Supplement) Neophyte Ancient Our Assault Squads and Biker Squads were unique in that we could take power weapons. And while this did make the squad our Veteran Squads did not have Veteran Sargeants. Like there is likely a few more easy options you could mention or expand on, but we had 4-6 unique units + 3-5 unique characters. Neophyte ancient? Not familiar with this one. What's it from? Helbrecht's Command Squad could have 5 Neophytes and one of those could carry the Company Banner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimVandy85 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) Land Raider Crusader and champion were other BT only units before they got stolen and they've gotten nothing new since they were made part of SM codex. If DA become part of the SM codex they most likely won't get new Chapter specific units aside from maybe updated primaris named characters. Nobody absorbed into the codex gets new unique Chapter specific stuff.Had a full list made somewhere but that not exactly true; BT Unique units we had at one point (characters aside)EChampion (depending on opanion) Crusader Squad Crusader Bike Squad (Codex Armaggaeddon) Durandal Dreadnought (White Dwarf Supplement) Neophyte Ancient Our Assault Squads and Biker Squads were unique in that we could take power weapons. And while this did make the squad our Veteran Squads did not have Veteran Sargeants. Like there is likely a few more easy options you could mention or expand on, but we had 4-6 unique units + 3-5 unique characters. Neophyte ancient? Not familiar with this one. What's it from? Helbrecht's Command Squad could have 5 Neophytes and one of those could carry the Company BannerOh wow. I hadn't heard of this. That's a bit different from the norm. Wouldn't helbrecht's command squad be made up of sword brethren though and, therefore not subject to training neophytes? Edited July 25, 2020 by JimVandy85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 /shrug I dunno, its an option basically no one took cause you lost a specialist but it was an option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I just hope we get custom doctrines for our succesors. It's a neutral change for me This is one I want to know. Syphid 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 It's OK to use BT as an example but let's not develop the discussion on that direction... Interrogator Stobz 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I too want to see the Successors finally get some love. Some Warlord Traits, Relics and maybe variant Chapter Traits? Syphid 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 As a 20+ year collector of a DA successor, I am ok with this if it means bringing DA successors in line with other SM successor rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I just hope we get custom doctrines for our succesors. It's a neutral change for me This is one I want to know. I too want to see the Successors finally get some love. Some Warlord Traits, Relics and maybe variant Chapter Traits? As a 20+ year collector of a DA successor, I am ok with this if it means bringing DA successors in line with other SM successor rules. At the very least Dark Angel affiliated chapters will now have access to the successor chapter tactic rules and the chapter command stratagems (Chapter Master, Master of Sanctity, etc). If the new DA supplement is like the others then there will at least be a Special Wargear page from which successors can take relics without paying CP along with the C:SM relics. Here's the sticky wicket: I don't think the "Angels of [X]" are different enough to warrant their own sub-subfactions with bespoke options like the weirdness that happens with the sons of Dorn or how Flesh Tears exemplify a specific variant of the Sanguinius chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 With the supplement and successors, I would like to see some art of how their Ravenwing and Deathwing look. I know some of them have specific ways, such as the Consecrators, but it can currently take quite a bit of hunting to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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