DA Rolled Into Marines Codex

[Gederas]

As an exercise, Dark Angels players should compare their current codex to that of the current Codex: Space Marines and remove everything that is duplicated. How much is left? What small bit could be included in the new Codex: Space Marines to give players a basic feel for the Chapter (without all of the distinctive goodies)? How much is left to form the backbone of a possible codex supplement, and how might things have to be phrased in order to support the transition? Is it possible for the Dark Angels to remain every bit as distinctive under the codex supplement construct as is supported by the codex construct?

Had just done so. Dark Angels have (both in codex and Ritual of the Damned) 28 units unique to them.

You can't look at just the units, though. Look at the lore, the warlord traits, etc.

 

Moreover, after identifying the unique units, identify where those might replace similar units in the main codex and how GW would either rule those other units out or include them. Also, what changes might be imposed? For example, could the Dark Angels get their green bikers back? And what units in Codex: Space Marines might not be allowed for the Dark Angels.

 

Looking at unique units is only a start, barely scratching the surface of building the theoretical backbone.

Clearly, Dark Angels would be the THICC Supplement.

 

28 Unique Units

12 Unique Warlord Traits (3 being Deathwing and 3 Ravenwing exclusive)

12 Unique Relics 3 being Deathwing and 3 Ravenwing exclusive)

 

All I'm saying is Dark Angels shouldn't have access to:

1. Sternguard Veterans
2. Vanguard Veterans
3. Stormhawk
4. Stormtalon

Because we don't NEED any of those.

 

But we DO have Thunderfire Cannons and Centurions in lore, so there's no reason for us to not have them!

[Brother Tyler]

How many of those 28 unique units are just normal Codex: Space Marine units with a small twist here and there? How many are just lore differences such as a "Captain" being called a "Company Master" in the Unforgiven Chapters?

 

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

 

This comes down to evaluating whether any of the "differences" are truly distinctive elements or if they are just cosmetic things that GW included for the sake of including differences.

 

While I fully expect GW to preserve the distinctiveness of the Chapters that will soon be consolidated, I don't expect every little difference to be preserved. Expectation management will be essential in keeping disappointment to a minimum.

[Gederas]

How many of those 28 unique units are just normal Codex: Space Marine units with a small twist here and there? How many are just lore differences such as a "Captain" being called a "Company Master" in the Unforgiven Chapters?

 

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

 

This comes down to evaluating whether any of the "differences" are truly distinctive elements or if they are just cosmetic things that GW included for the sake of including differences.

 

While I fully expect GW to preserve the distinctiveness of the Chapters that will soon be consolidated, I don't expect every little difference to be preserved. Expectation management will be essential in keeping disappointment to a minimum.

Just the same but with chapter specific things?

1. Deathwing Tartaros Terminators
2. Deathwing Cataphractii Terminators
3. Ravenwing Bike Squad
4. Ravenwing Land Speeders
5. Ravenwing Attack Bike

So that still leaves 23 units unique to Dark Angels. And I didn't count Masters with mine, because that's just a chapter rename. And just to make it clear:

1. Asmodai
2. Azrael
3. Belial
4. Ezekiel
5. Lazarus
6. Sammael in Sableclaw
7. Sammael on Corvex
8. Interrogator-Chaplain
9. Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armour
10. Ravenwing Talonmaster
11. Deathwing Ancient
12. Deathwing Apothecary
13. Deathwing Champion
14. Deathwing Terminator Squad (count this as unique as it can have both normal and Assault Terminators in one squad)
15. Deathwing Knights
16. Ravenwing Ancient
17. Ravenwing Apothecary
18. Ravenwing Champion
19. Ravenwing Black Knights
20. Ravenwing Dark Shroud
21. Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengance
22. Nephilim Jetfighter
23. Ravenwing Dark Talon

You could say the Deathwing Ancient is no longer unique, but originally only Dark Angels and Blood Angels had access to Terminator Ancients, so I count it as a DA Unique unit

Edited July 25, 2020 by Gederas

[Pavement Artist]

Another reason why I'm done with gw at this point

Why?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

I don't think things like Interrogator-Chaplains will be removed. With how they did the Lazarus/Master kit, I think it is conceivable that they will do something like an Asmodai/Interrogator-Chaplain kit, or a Corbulo/Sanguinary Priest kit for BA as examples. With the transition to plastic kits, which many of those heroes date prior to, they can get more mileage out of kits by doing it that way.

 

To add further, that way when they make the transition of some of those to plastic kits, they can do so in a way where someone that plays that army will probably get more than one of them, instead of only ever buying one Asmodai, etc.

Edited July 26, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Gederas]

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

I don't think things like Interrogator-Chaplains will be removed. With how they did the Lazarus/Master kit, I think it is conceivable that they will do something like an Asmodai/Interrogator-Chaplain kit, or a Corbulo/Sanguinary Priest kit for BA as examples. With the transition to plastic kits, which many of those heroes date prior to, they can get more mileage out of kits by doing it that way.

Please... No Primaris Asmodai. Let the worst of the DA characters die an ignoble death

 

Sapphon would be much better as an updated/new model character (also why are we the only Chapter with a named Chaplain that ISN'T the Reclusiarch I will never know)

 

Also: The Interrogator-Chaplain model is one of the most current models Dark Angels have (iirc, it was the newest DA model until Zakariah)

Edited July 26, 2020 by Gederas

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

I don't think things like Interrogator-Chaplains will be removed. With how they did the Lazarus/Master kit, I think it is conceivable that they will do something like an Asmodai/Interrogator-Chaplain kit, or a Corbulo/Sanguinary Priest kit for BA as examples. With the transition to plastic kits, which many of those heroes date prior to, they can get more mileage out of kits by doing it that way.

Please... No Primaris Asmodai.

 

Primaris Sapphon would be much better.

 

Also: The Interrogator-Chaplain model is one of the most current models Dark Angels have (iirc, it was the newest DA model until Zakariah)

 

Yeah, it's a pretty new kit. I doubt they will retire it anytime soon. Sapphon would be much better to have, as he's a hole in our range. I don't know if they will go down the route of having him be killed off and Asmodai take his place though...

 

More there I meant that I think it makes sense for them to approach updating the hero kits in that manner. Having them as a dual character/generic option packed on those two-sprue character kits.

 

To add not saying I want them to do that, I'd rather have a Sapphon model, but that's the lazy way and that's kind of how I expect them to do it...

Edited July 26, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Tyler]

I wasn't suggesting that Interrogator-Chaplains would be removed. I was merely suggesting that they are simply the Unforgiven version of senior Chaplains in other Chapters. The differences between them and their Codex counterparts might not require a dedicated datasheet. I fully expect Interrogator-Chaplains to remain in the Unforgiven. Similarly, all of the other stuff that is peculiar to the Unforgiven (or the Blood Angels or Deathwatch or Space Wolves) that is just a variation on a theme might not require a full datasheet.

 

Or it might.

 

There are different ways to skin this cat, preserving the flavor and distinctiveness of the various Chapters without necessarily needing to reinvent the wheel each time.

 

GW has options.

[bigtrouble]

How do we feel about this? I imagine it's probably a benefit to us, cost-wise, but in terms of diversity, not so much.

This stinks... maybe. You never can tell with GW. I was really looking forward to a new codex, but with 9th not really advancing the universe at all, there’s not even much story line to be excited about.

[oldmanlee]

 

 

Another reason why I'm done with gw at this point

Why?

Well the fact that I did not enjoy the 8th edition rules set and 9th still has the thing I hated most about 8th ie command points.even before corona hit I'd had like one game in over 5 months I just fell now is a good time to drop out and save my money for things I enjoy.i also feel there recent price hike in the face of a global pandemic that's now turning in to a global recession has left a bad taste in my mouth towards gw Edited July 26, 2020 by oldmanlee

[Syphid]

Azrael, Ezekiel and Sammael are all older sculpts than Asmodai. New Asmodai came out what, 6th or 7th edition? Sammael is still in pretty good shape, so I'd see them primarisifying Azrael or Ezekiel first.

[bevulf]

 

I would expect some of those things to be streamlined, either with small rules adjustments to the normal unit (i.e., no full datasheet, just a rules box that spells out the small difference(s)) or via lore (e.g., Interrogator-Chaplains might become nothing more than the Unforgiven Chapters' name for their most senior Chaplains, rules-wise little/no different from the senior Chaplains of other Chapters).

I don't think things like Interrogator-Chaplains will be removed. With how they did the Lazarus/Master kit, I think it is conceivable that they will do something like an Asmodai/Interrogator-Chaplain kit, or a Corbulo/Sanguinary Priest kit for BA as examples. With the transition to plastic kits, which many of those heroes date prior to, they can get more mileage out of kits by doing it that way.

Please... No Primaris Asmodai. Let the worst of the DA characters die an ignoble death

 

Sapphon would be much better as an updated/new model character (also why are we the only Chapter with a named Chaplain that ISN'T the Reclusiarch I will never know)

 

Also: The Interrogator-Chaplain model is one of the most current models Dark Angels have (iirc, it was the newest DA model until Zakariah)

 

 

Sapphon is boring. Almost generic. Asmodai is way cooler and sinister. And I want him primarised. But I suppose Azrael or ezekiel willl come first. 

[Fulcherius]

Hey guys, I finally made an account just for this.
I took a long look at the chapter tactics they showed during the stream. We can see them when they showcase the new codex

I have transcribed all of them but here is the one we want to see

Dark Angels Tactic:
- each time a model with this tactic makes an attack, unless that model moved this turn (excluding pile and consolidation moves), add 1 to that attack hit roll
- Each time a Combat Attrition test is taken for a model with this tactic, it is automatically passed

They may change it before publication of the book, but here is, brothers, our new chapter tactic. +1 to hit (shoot or melee) if stationnary.

(edit)
 

For me that means that Plasma will get overruled to have the unmodified 1 on all weapons types, but one can dream. 

Also, having a +1 in melee as well as shooting can help both types of units in our army. 2+ hitting DWK ! 3+hitting TH terminators ! (if the stoic prosecution litany does not change). Do you see other benefits this can give us ? It stills play on the "not moving" thing, but since we are also getting a chaplain biker, that could be very interesting. Also, we lose the innate reroll of 1 for our plasma, so having a master is mandatory now (but not redondant anymore) ?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Fulcherius

[SinnerBeta]

My guess on what will remain and what will go on the "chopping block" would be:

 

We keep:

- named characters

- talonmaster

- deathwing and ravenwing knights

- ancients, champions and apothecaries from both DW and RW (unless they try to legend them, but the box is still in circulation so I doubt it)

- unique land speeders and flyers

 

What might be removed:

- deathwing terminators (folded into regular and assault terminators for streamlining purposes)

- ravenwing bikers (since they're pretty much regular bikers)

- interrogation chaplain (I wouldn't be surprised if he became a stratagem upgrade for regular chaplain)

[Skywrath]

Hey guys, I finally made an account just for this.

I took a long look at the chapter tactics they showed during the stream. We can see them when they showcase the new codex

 

I have transcribed all of them but here is the one we want to see

 

Dark Angels Tactic:

- each time a model with this tactic makes an attack, unless that model moved this turn (excluding pile and consolidation moves), add 1 to that attack hit roll

- Each time a Combat Attrition test is taken for a model with this tactic, it is automatically passed

 

They may change it before publication of the book, but here is, brothers, our new chapter tactic. +1 to hit (shoot or melee) if stationnary.

 

(edit)

 

For me that means that Plasma will get overruled to have the unmodified 1 on all weapons types, but one can dream. 

 

Also, having a +1 in melee as well as shooting can help both types of units in our army. 2+ hitting DWK ! 3+hitting TH terminators ! (if the stoic prosecution litany does not change). Do you see other benefits this can give us ? It stills play on the "not moving" thing, but since we are also getting a chaplain biker, that could be very interesting. Also, we lose the innate reroll of 1 for our plasma, so having a master is mandatory now (but not redondant anymore) ?

 

Welcome to the Rock! Please proceed to chamber 42 for routine indoctrination by Interrogator Stobz.

[aura_enchanted]

My guess on what will remain and what will go on the "chopping block" would be:

 

We keep:

- named characters

- talonmaster

- deathwing and ravenwing knights

- ancients, champions and apothecaries from both DW and RW (unless they try to legend them, but the box is still in circulation so I doubt it)

- unique land speeders and flyers

 

What might be removed:

- deathwing terminators (folded into regular and assault terminators for streamlining purposes)

- ravenwing bikers (since they're pretty much regular bikers)

- interrogation chaplain (I wouldn't be surprised if he became a stratagem upgrade for regular chaplain)

 

deathwing terminators will remain as they are, they have unique loadout options, we have plasma canons and watchers in the dark, they dont we also have sword + sb sgt's and they dont

[Guest MistaGav]

At the very least the things that might be removed just need an addendum to give them the Ravenwing or Deathwing keyword. Might be how they plan to integrate outriders and Bladeguard too.

[Varizel]

Well, I didn't see this coming and that with people clamoring over DA (and to a certain extent BA) to be rolled to the normal SM codex, i guess it's inevitable, but it is disappointing to me. Granted, it seems GW wanted you to use their  "AWESOME" Apps thus you don't have to carry multiple books anymore. Still the idea of having to buy 2 books just to get Dark Angels playable is pretty annoying and the apps right now is just.... "awesome".

 

Not only that, but going forward, is this going to harken back to the older edition where the big 4 only got slightly different loadout normal marines? Does this mean, soon, all those special models will be gone? If i remember correctly, DA only got unique special units that is not a slight modification of the base codex units on 6th ed DA codex (BA on 5th, and SW on 6th if i remember correctly (their flyers)). With Predators being replaced with Gladiator, showing that Firstborn is going the way of legends (yes.... even the video showed that predator being replaced with Gladiator... GW don't even mince word anymore), how long will our Firstborn Special Units will last?

 

On the plus side, now you can take Centurions and Ironclad Dreadnought and heck Thunderfire Cannon. Honestly though, this is such a small consolation to me. I don't have those models anyway.

 

All in all, disappointing and shows why they are pushing those newfangled Bladeguards as Deathwing and now "codexifying" the whole marine range. The biggest booboo to me though is that... Space Marines getting a new Codex right AFTER they got their new one... not even a year in. Is this how it's going to be moving forward? Codex change close to every year, since you know, GW just can't stop churning those Primaris.

 

oo well, i guess i'll join the Heretic Astartes and start a Word Bearer for my crusade army. On the plus side, my nids hasn't been updated since FOREVER since GW never update Tyranids.

[Skywrath]

I recall one of the DA players on here mentioned that we are just green smurfs at this point. With the codex release, it seems to be that way - and that doesn't sit well with me at all. I hope that later with 9th we will get primaris units specific to the DA or at least keep the DA firstborn such as the ravenwing apothecary. Time will tell and hopefully we are all overreacting. 

 

It is unlikely we will get access to the CSM units though, I just don't see it. If that was the case, GW would have gave us centurions and thunderfire cannons by now. This is probably their way to cut costs and gain an even bigger profit. As much as I like their lore, I absolutely despise their greed.

[Fulcherius]

I believe that the new codex dropping so early has more to do with the fact that, you know, a new edition is dropping too. 

They hit at least 4 birds in one stone because if they can get all space marines out of the way for a while (barring the supplements for DA / BA they talked about on the stream), they can update other armies ? You talked about Tyranids, well, maybe if they don't have to deal with every single one chapter of SM, they can concentrate on xenos for the rest of edition ? 

( they did showcase in the teaser video at the end of the stream pictures of an ork boy, drukhari, sister of battle... ) 

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but that seems to me like the balance between business and answering to the public wishes. The app is horrendous, tho. Bleh

[Varizel]

I believe that the new codex dropping so early has more to do with the fact that, you know, a new edition is dropping too. 

 

They hit at least 4 birds in one stone because if they can get all space marines out of the way for a while (barring the supplements for DA / BA they talked about on the stream), they can update other armies ? You talked about Tyranids, well, maybe if they don't have to deal with every single one chapter of SM, they can concentrate on xenos for the rest of edition ? 

 

( they did showcase in the teaser video at the end of the stream pictures of an ork boy, drukhari, sister of battle... ) 

 

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but that seems to me like the balance between business and answering to the public wishes. The app is horrendous, tho. Bleh

I don't know... they did say that PA was 9th ready and all. Even though you did play devil's advocate, Space Marines has been the focus for the longest time. And let's be frank, less than 1 year codex change is scummy to the customer, and no.... there is no proof that less time spent on SM will be spent on xenos. Look at Drukhari. This is not the place for that discussion though, i am merely stating my opinion.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Locking doctrines, etc. away for months and then charging money for a PA book, then folding back into the main codex anyways is just daft though. Their greed there is plain to see and a bit disappointing

[Master Sheol]

Wait SM codex and DA supplement before buying Thunderfires or Ironclads or Centurions

Nobody confirmed we can have that in the new codex

 

October will be a long wait and DA supplement will be a longer wait (As rumors said that DW will be one of the first codexes i guess they will be the first supplement after SM codex)

 

Until then i will keep playing with KillTeam and if i want a regular 40K match I will use the core rules with the old codexes without any of the new units (me and friends agreed on this approach until the new codex SM will land)

[FarFromSam]

Here to say I'm having trouble getting behind the floating tank aesthetic... does not look marine-like, too busy to free hand on, And they encroach on eldar schtick. Here's to hoping GW won't remove real marine options, but knowing they will. Edited July 26, 2020 by farfromsam

[WrathOfTheLion]

Wait SM codex and DA supplement before buying Thunderfires or Ironclads or Centurions

Nobody confirmed we can have that in the new codex

 

October will be a long wait and DA supplement will be a longer wait (As rumors said that DW will be one of the first codexes i guess they will be the first supplement after SM codex)

 

Until then i will keep playing with KillTeam and if i want a regular 40K match I will use the core rules with the old codexes without any of the new units (me and friends agreed on this approach until the new codex SM will land)

Yeah, it's going to be a while. I probably won't play with DA during the time between the new Codex and the supplement, using some odd combo of the new codex, PA and our old codex and a stack of FAQs during that interregnum will just be too much hassle for me.