DA Rolled Into Marines Codex

[UtariOnzo]

So put in reserves to swoop objectives late game or flank a priority target and provide cheap DS cover. Just very limited in applicability.

Yeah, my bad, I kind of interpreted that original question in more a lore/organisation sense rather than gameplay. As others have said, I guess it's to stop cheap infiltrating troop spam and bubblewrapping, pushing you to use them more for flanking/reserve use which would be more lore accurate.

[Berzul]

 

The thing is, there are way too many better options than scouts. Their value was in being troop choices. As elites, I think they might get pushed back due to just plain competition in battlefield roles.

Right, this is a not too transparent move to devalue them. What bothers me is from the fluff angle, you NEED scouts. That isn’t optional.

 

Well, not really.

 

I don't want this to become a primaris bashing tangent, but in a primaris chapter, there are no scouts. There is no role for them. The Primaris forces of the Adeptus Astartes, at least on the board, have no particular Neophytes, and the roles of scouts are better fulfilled by other battle brothers.

 

Might be that, per the lore, scouts continue to exist? Or perhaps we might see that in the lore, Neophytes now are managed differently? An "option" to them, in a chapter, might indeed appear.

[jaxom]

 

I don't want this to become a primaris bashing tangent, but in a primaris chapter, there are no scouts. There is no role for them. The Primaris forces of the Adeptus Astartes, at least on the board, have no particular Neophytes, and the roles of scouts are better fulfilled by other battle brothers.

Might be that, per the lore, scouts continue to exist? Or perhaps we might see that in the lore, Neophytes now are managed differently? An "option" to them, in a chapter, might indeed appear.

 

 

Scouts, much like various common activities of the Raven Guard, are (in my opinion) not best represented as a unit in the average 40k game. Setting up demo charges on comms towers, sabotaging supply lines, all the sneaky stuff that happens before a battle. The whole "blooding in battle" thing before giving them power armour could easily be smaller scale operations.

[ValourousHeart]

 

...

I think we got used to running scouts like Cultists, for the same reason that CSM run Cultists.

I think that a Space Marine armies should be mostly space marines, with scouts in a support role.

Just like I think that a CSM armies should be mostly CSM, with Cultists in morstly a support roll.

That is a really good point. You may have changed my mind a bit. Curious though what the role of scouts is really supposed to be now if Infiltrators are replacing their forward deployment and area denial roles.

 

Objectives are supposed to be important in this edition.  So why would you leave the valuable objective to the untrained and incompetent.

 

Personally I'd have scouts setup as snipers, and throw in a Heavy Bolter.  Set them up in defensive positions outside of my deployment zone with vantage points to several key approach paths and objectives, but not on the objectives.  Cut away that key buff before assault.  Soften up units on their way in or pick off stragglers.  In short have them target the stuff I don't want my Eliminators having to mess with.

 

The thing is, there are way too many better options than scouts. Their value was in being troop choices. As elites, I think they might get pushed back due to just plain competition in battlefield roles.

 

Don't kid yourself.  Their value was that they were cheap.  If players valued them for being troops then people would have considered some of their weapon options, or the fact that you could take 10 in a squad.  I bet you haven't seen a ten man scout squad in 6 editions.  Or a scout with an upgrade in 3 editions.

 

Now there is an argument to be made that scouts shouldn't be in elites.  Mainly that elites is bloated.  But they don't make sense as either fast attack or heavy support.

 

Meaning that they only other alternative is to make scouts not take a slot.  If you think elite make scouts unplayable check out Arco-Flagellants.  They are the sisters alternative CC unit that is limited to a single elite slot without a priest, or don't take any slots with a priest.

 

 

 

The thing is, there are way too many better options than scouts. Their value was in being troop choices. As elites, I think they might get pushed back due to just plain competition in battlefield roles.

Right, this is a not too transparent move to devalue them. What bothers me is from the fluff angle, you NEED scouts. That isn’t optional.

 

A chapter is supposed to have 1000 marines.  But really I think we all understand that if a company has 10 squads of 10 marines and a captain, and a chaplain, and command squads for both, and some company veterans and all the guys from the motor pool... you are well over your limit of 100 marines in a company.

 

And the scouts squad is supposed to have no more than 100 scouts.

 

So given all of the companies in a chapter, you should have 44 ten man tactical squads.  And less than 10 scout squads.  Yet for some reason every marine player fields 3 scouts squads and 0 tactical squads.

 

Don't use fluff to justify your meta gaming BS. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[Interrogator Stobz]

This^

 

Kill Team missions

[Gederas]

I'm too lazy to cut up Valorous' post but, I liked scouts being the cheap option for troops.... Even if I ended up always using sniper scouts with camo cloaks when I ran them :lol: (then again, I only really HAVE Sniper scouts....)

 

And about the Codex Astartes thing: It's 1000 Battle-Brothers. Neophytes were always excluded from that, along with command staff/armoury.

[Zustiur]

This change has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, it has potential in both directions, good and bad. It could be awesome, but I doubt it will.

I was lamenting or remaining separate after the last update when the supplements arrived. I felt like we missed out on a good thing. But now I hear rumours of unit entries being combined to save space and potential unit removal. I'm concerned, scared even. My dark angels contain no primaris. I'm still partly inclined to keep it that way. If this is evidence of first born being removed, I don't know how to react. A lot of what I like about marines and dark angels in particular is still absent from the primaris product line.

Lately I've been tempted to build and paint some dark angels primaris models, but only as conversion and painting fun, I didn't intend to run them in game.

I like painting intercessors, I have my Crimson Fists for that. I can't stand marine hover tanks though.

 

As GW continues their current trajectory, I find more and more I'm becoming a model maker and painter, not a gamer. 9th is a clear improvement on 8th, but I still prefer 6th or 7th in some ways.

[bigtrouble]

 

Don't use fluff to justify your meta gaming BS.

 

Easy brother, point made. At essentially the same cost for 5 scouts w rifles and cloaks and 3 eliminators, the eliminators still look to be the better option against soft targets, with a D3 S5 blast option. I think it’s clear that moving them out of a cheap troop option is designed to encourage the adoption of the Primaris line, not a fix to game play. It is what it is, it’s fine. Just gonna miss those little guys when they’re gone.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Last reminder that the thread is about DA being rolled into SM codex.

If you want to discuss GW policies, Scouts moving in org table and etc, then open up a new thread, please.

[Berzul]

 

 

The thing is, there are way too many better options than scouts. Their value was in being troop choices. As elites, I think they might get pushed back due to just plain competition in battlefield roles.

 

Don't kid yourself.  Their value was that they were cheap.  If players valued them for being troops then people would have considered some of their weapon options, or the fact that you could take 10 in a squad.  I bet you haven't seen a ten man scout squad in 6 editions.  Or a scout with an upgrade in 3 editions.

 

Now there is an argument to be made that scouts shouldn't be in elites.  Mainly that elites is bloated.  But they don't make sense as either fast attack or heavy support.

 

Meaning that they only other alternative is to make scouts not take a slot.  If you think elite make scouts unplayable check out Arco-Flagellants.  They are the sisters alternative CC unit that is limited to a single elite slot without a priest, or don't take any slots with a priest.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, there are way too many better options than scouts. Their value was in being troop choices. As elites, I think they might get pushed back due to just plain competition in battlefield roles.

Right, this is a not too transparent move to devalue them. What bothers me is from the fluff angle, you NEED scouts. That isn’t optional.

 

A chapter is supposed to have 1000 marines.  But really I think we all understand that if a company has 10 squads of 10 marines and a captain, and a chaplain, and command squads for both, and some company veterans and all the guys from the motor pool... you are well over your limit of 100 marines in a company.

 

And the scouts squad is supposed to have no more than 100 scouts.

 

So given all of the companies in a chapter, you should have 44 ten man tactical squads.  And less than 10 scout squads.  Yet for some reason every marine player fields 3 scouts squads and 0 tactical squads.

 

Don't use fluff to justify your meta gaming BS. 

 

Ok

 

First up, their value was that they were cheap troops. They allowed you to fill in detachments cheaper, by taking care of the "tax slots" that corresponded to troops. That has, indeed, changed with this edition, and I will indeed agree that they do not make sense as Elite, or as Fast Attack, or as Heavy Support. They clearly fit as troops, which they always have. I understand the possible reasons GW might have had to make this change, though.

 

Now, indeed a chapter is supposed to keep the scouts in one company. The 10th company. Which means they are about 100 in number. And, in the fluff, the army NEEDS scouts. Even if as a place to put the neophytes in, while they become true battle brothers. Regardless of whether the company is 100 men exactly, or more than that by a margin due to command roles and structures, is another issue. Now, be it 900 to 100, or 1000 to 100, in the ratio of battle brothers to neophytes, the argument indeed stands the same, that having every single $%#" army out there be fielded with 15 scouts, no tacticals whatsoever, and a ton of bikes and terminators, makes little sense in the lore.

 

But, as bigtrouble points out, it is very evident that this is a move, not to make the armies look more in line with lore by having them use less scouts and more battle brothers. Rather, it is a way of placing the scouts out of reach, because in reality, 9 times out of 10, a player will just take 5, 10 or 30 scouts for cheap, and spend the points somewhere else that is worth the investment.

 

Consider that they are ELITES.

 

I mean, due to their role as scouts, you COULD have made the argument for them to be Fast Attack, maybe? Not saying it fits, just saying it could be made to work.

 

But no, they are ELITES. A part of the most bloated section of the codex. Competing with units that would NEVER be taken after scouts in a million years.

 

It is pretty clear that GW is the one using fluff to justify their meta gaming BS, here. They have bigger, shinnier, primaris-ier things in the codex that would be purchased a lot less, if scouts were an option. So, off they go. Not to legends, not yet, because that change needs for players to already NOT be using the scouts, so that they will not miss them and will not complain about the change all that much. So, off to the one part of the organizational slot from where they will almost never see play again.

 

Pretty smart, really.

 

 

+++ EDIT +++

 

I was posting this before the warning came up. Chaplain Lucifer, please let me know if I have strayed too far off topic, and I will remove this post myself. I'd like to keep it here, until then, if that's alright.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Berzul

[Volt]

The issue with scouts being an elite is that they simply stop being run, because they aren't actually good outside of filling a troop slot for dirt cheap. Now that they're elites there's not really a reason to take them considering Primaris have better snipers and the elite slot is fairly contested for choices that kick a lot more arse than scouts ever can. Especially with changes to character rules, snipers aren't even that important anymore as you can simply mag-dump a multi shot or blast weapon into an escort and expose the character. So it's less "stop running scouts like cultists" and more "stop running scouts altogether" as they just don't have a role outside of a troops choice. Arguably they're even less useful than Reivers, who at least can do a leadership bomb while being otherwise garbage.

[ValourousHeart]

I like the changes to the land speeder data sheets.  Assuming RW gets to keep 5 speeders in their squadrons after we are officially rolled in to C:SM, then I could field 48 classic speeders for only 4300 points.  Although I don't think my wife will be to thrilled to hear that I need to buy more speeders.  LOL.

 

I think I'm more excited than nervous with being rolled into C:SM.  Sure somethings will be streamlined but I doubt all character will be removed.

 

The only supplement marine codex i picked up was Raven Guard, and i thought that GW did a great job making that chapter different from the others.

 

I don't believe GW will have to pack the DA supplement with that many units.  They should be able to get by with just a few erratas to specific data sheets, and a couple unique characters / units.

[Shadowseer]

I'm pretty sure all unique units will go to the supplement: characters, anything Deathwing and most of Ravenwing.

 

So you can play any shared units with codex only, and grab the supplement as you need it.

[Master Sheol]

In KT when it comes to Deathwatch it states

"You can pick Units X, Y, Z, but you have to apply the Deathwatch costs for their bolt weapons cause they include SiA"

And in élite expansion it states

"DA can take unit X but it can't have option Y and/or it has additional option Z. Furthermore unit X get additional special rule W"

 

I am sure that Units like RW bikes will work like that with that kind of units getting tje RW keyword and RW special rules at the point cost shown in DA supplement

 

The same for units like the master (captain with DA special rules and keywords and additional wargear) while other units will Be DA exclusive (like it Int-Chap) and other units will be forbidden (basic Chap in DA cannot get TDA so that data sheet will be forbidden to DA)

[Shadowseer]

Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

[jaxom]

I wouldn't mind a simplification of some of the rules that are tacked on. Inner Circle is largely unnecessary as a core rule and could easily be a stratagem for attacking people with Fallen keyword. The Chapter Tactic and MSU makes the fearless part meh for units that benefit from it. Company Veterans, as a kit, already work for building Sternguard. Repackaging the Vanguard Veteran sprue with the Dark Angels upgrade sprue and selling it as Dark Angel Vanguard Veterans would give something to sell along with the codex release.

[bigtrouble]

I wouldn't mind a simplification of some of the rules that are tacked on. Inner Circle is largely unnecessary as a core rule and could easily be a stratagem for attacking people with Fallen keyword. The Chapter Tactic and MSU makes the fearless part meh for units that benefit from it. Company Veterans, as a kit, already work for building Sternguard. Repackaging the Vanguard Veteran sprue with the Dark Angels upgrade sprue and selling it as Dark Angel Vanguard Veterans would give something to sell along with the codex release.

The Fallen part of the rule is very specific, and agree it could be a strategy, but not so sure on the morale tests. What are the Inner Circle units that would need to take a morale test due to combat losses? Terminators and Black Knights, right?

 

I think it’s worth specifying rules-wise that those two units will not flee the battlefield, even if it’s unlikely.

 

Edit: DWK too.

Edited July 29, 2020 by bigtrouble

[cubertious]

GW has already updated some of rules and units for 9th though FAQ's and errata, so because of this:

 

I think/hope they will address the new codex and lack of supplement the way they did for 8th; that is, use the Codex and for any units missing/not covered, use the Chapter specific 8th codex and PA books with updated errata until your supplement is out.

I also think they will do similiar things as to what they did with the Indexes from 8th. Meaning they will include all data sheets but chapters X and Y do not have access to them.

 

That being said, I hope company veterans remain. I would also like to see some support for successor DA chapters. It's a pipe dream but I would love a datasheet for successor chapter masters (think Azreal, but less). I would be nice to use my Cubertious model (Azreal) as my successor chapter master rather than playing as differernt colored DAs or using him as a regular master.

[solarisqc]

 

.... It's a pipe dream but I would love a datasheet for successor chapter masters (think Azreal, but less). I would be nice to use my Cubertious model (Azreal) as my successor chapter master rather than playing as differernt colored DAs or using him as a regular master.

 

I don't remember the successor chapter, but one of them have a Int. chaplain as Chapter master. I will not keep my breath but this will be a realy nice option for a successor chapter master/new character. He even receive a heavenfall blade from Azreal.

[UtariOnzo]

That would be the Consecrators in the Legacy of Caliban trilogy

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'm not too concerned about DA being brought into the Space Marine codex. If anything, I'm cautiously optimistic about it. I started playing back in 3rd edition, and back then I used the mainline SM Codex + the DA supplement, and it worked fine back then. I see no reason to think it won't work now.

 

When you get right down to it, not counting unique characters, we have 6 unique units - Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Knights, the Land Speeder Vengeance, the Dark Shroud, the Nephilim Jet Fighter, and the Dark Talon. Including characters triples the number of unique entries, but that's because of the Deathwing and Ravenwing Champions, Ancients, and Apothecaries.  That's not that many rules to squeeze into a supplement, and with the Primaris push, those units will see less and less use over time. Presumably, GW will eventually make unique DA (and BA and SW) Primaris units, but probably not till after they stop supporting the legacy Marine units.

 

Also don't forget - GW is never going to let Codex: Space Marines be a bad book for very long.  I think we as players have suffered more than prospered from DAs being in their own book, with our stuff being sub-par while Codex: Space Marine armies were competitive. Going forward, that won't be such a problem anymore.

One point about Scouts: The irony is that Scouts' weapon options are more like Intercessor weapon options than they are like Tactical Marine weapon options. Sure, they can use heavy bolters and missile launchers, but a squad with all bolters reflects Intercessors with bolt rifles, all shotguns reflects Intercessors with assault bolters, all sniper rifles reflects Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles (and Eliminators), and now pistol-ccw reflects Assault Intercessors. If anything, Scouts fit the Primaris line better than they do the legacy Marine line.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Presumably, GW will eventually make unique DA (and BA and SW) Primaris units, but probably not till after they stop supporting the legacy Marine units.

I don't think they will do them after they stop supporting the legacy units. They will do them first to have the replacement in, then give time to transition.

 

When it comes down to it, the basic support of the unit kits needed would be something like a veteran Ravenwing squad, a veteran Deathwing squad and a veteran Greenwing squad.

[templarphoenix]

Running deathwing/ravenwing or deathraven only so I dont really care.

I stopped running greenwing when lions blade gone.

[Cpt_Reaper]

If I were to run a Successor Chapter using the pick 2 system, would that lock me out of First Founding units and warlord traits?

[Berzul]

No